"the wall street journath"the w morning, calling for a blend of medicare cuts and tax breaks. he writes, to break the deadlock, both sides should agree to common sense reforms of the country's entitlement programs and to tax code. ryan adds a few customary digs at the president, but there's one thing conspicuously missing, any mention of the nation's health care law. this did not go unnoticed, especially by members of the right flank. ted cruz's communication adviser notices, there's one big word missing from this op-ed. much like white house press, paul ryan doesn't mention obama care in wall street journal op-ed. red state blogger and lead insurrectionist eric ericsson was livid. paul ryan wants a grand bargain and did not once mention obama care. he continues, the only path to victory in this shutdown is to keep our fire on obama care and our focus on the defunding effort.

when even paul ryan, the tea party whisperer, can no longer please the right wing's right wing, it's clear the republican party has a serious problem on its hands. this debate has exposed a dep schism between the base that will only relent when obama care has been repealed and leadership that actually and very recently believed this. >> you had said next year that you would repeal the health care vote. that's still your mission? >> well, i think the election changes that. it's pretty clear that the president was re-elected. obama care is the law of the land. >> obama care is the law of the land. joining me today, former rnc chair, michael steele, u.s. news editor of the "the guardian," alex coppleman, and "the washington post's" ezra cline

and luke russert. we had to play that boehner sound from last year because it's pretty stunning given his position less than a year ago, which is potentially defaulting over the repeal of obama care. i must ask you first about the latest from the coke industries. the coke brothers, according to "the new york times" this weekend, had spent over $200 million through organizations including freedom partners chamber of commerce, which is one of their groups. they've dispersed more than $200 million to help defund the government over the affordable care act. today, minutes ago, the coke brothers sent a letter to every member of congress saying, coke has not taken a position on the legislative tactic of tying the continuing resolution to defunding obama care nor has coke lobbied on legislative provisions defunding obama care. is this part of a grand effort to get republican leaders to push their caucus away from the obama care zeal?

>> it's odd, alex, because just as that memo went forward, heritage action, which is a group that's actively been receiving funds from the coke brothers, held a forum saying the focus should go back on the president's health care law. that's really the debate right now within the republican party. what has been quite odd is since this shutdown started, you've seen the focus on to issues they feel are better for them. the debt limit, the deficit, opening up national parks, world war ii veterans, cancer kids at nih, anything they can do to try and win the battle against democrats and make democrats look bad. they have not been going off on the health care law, especially when they've had these enrollment problems in the health care law basically delivered to them on a silver platter. it's an odd strategy. it's a lot of us here when we asked them why do this, you don't get a straight answer. it's, well, we've moved on from that. well, that is why we're here in general. >> and that is what eric

ericsson remembers and members of heritage action and certainly ted cruz remembers. >> so the reason why the world war ii veterans had trouble getting into their memorial, the reason why the nih is not funded for cancer patients, the reason why the death benefits did not go out to military families is a fight over the health care law. now you have heritage action and freedom works, who basically have been running this, saying, hey, go back to it the health care law, it's better positioning for us, whereas the more elder establishment wing has been trying to bring this over to debt and deficit because they feel they get to the debt limit, they can mesh them together, and they have better footing to try and negotiate with the president. as long as democrats are hard core and stick together, which they've been so far between harry reid and president obama, you don't need me telling you this. it's obvious how the polls have been reflected. republicans are hurting more on this. they can stand their ground, they end up okay. but it's fascinating here. it's a dynamic that i don't think we cover enough. i'm happy you're doing it, alex.

>> you're welcome. >> the reason why we're here today is the fight over the health care law. that's not what's being talked about at all within the highest ranks of the gop anymore. it's stunning. >> michael steele, it surprises me, actually. i thought the paul ryan op-ed signaled, okay, we're going to make this about -- we're not going to call it a grand bargain, but we're going to try to get some big-picture earned benefit program reforms, maybe a tax code thing here. then you just see the rightest part of the right flank pulling the conversation back to the repeal of obama care when you know moderates, establishment republicans are like, we cannot win on that. what happens? >> i'm still stuck on sisifean task. >> just rolling that boulder up the hill. >> i appreciate that from your opening. i think what we're seeing is the reality being played out within the gop that the establishment

started this ball by creating a vacuum. ted cruz filled the vacuum. a lot of people bought into what ted cruz was selling. the base especially. other outside groups got rich off that and spent a lot of money on that. so all of the sudden now, the establishment has come back around and go, okay, we realize through polling and other means that this is not a good strategy for us. now, we don't necessarily have a strategy, but that's not the point. the point is where we are right now is not a good space. so paul ryan does his op-ed. eric cantor does his. everybody is doing their thing trying to pull the wagon back into a new direction. lo and behold, all the folks who got on the bandwagon to go this way say, hold on, we like this path. this is the problem the party finds itself in. it's leaderless, rudderless, and cluesle les clueless with regards to a

strategy. they've sold a promise they could never deliver on. the reality remained the senate is in the hands of the democrats, the white house is in the hands of the democrats. so why have a fight over the law of the land that the supreme court, your own conservative supreme court has decided on. >> john boehner knew obama care wasn't going anywhere. the question now is, does john boehner allow the country to go over the fiscal cliff and default on its debt because he literally can't corral members of his own caucus? >> and is john boehner in charge? >> well, yeah. >> this is, to me, the great misdimension of this. i think michael gets at it very well. we conceive of everything in washington as a fight between republicans and democrats. from the beginning, the core dynamic here has been a fight between republicans and the tea party. john boehner did not want this fight. mitch mcconnell did not want this fight. paul ryan did not want this fight. they did not want it over obama care. they did not want to shut down

the government. nobody quite knows how to resolve it. it's plausible john boehner and barack obama could come to a deal. what's not plausible is they come to a deal the tea party signs off on. that's what makes it so hard to solve. it's not just obama care we've left. remember the other big thing that ted cruz was on, making d.c. listen. that was the two things. the big point was you got to make d.c. listen. ted cruz is now personally less popular an obama care. the republicans in congress are less popular than obama care. the shutdown is wildly unpopular. yet, no one seems to be listening. we've left both of the original things it behind. now we're just talking about something. they just need some way to not seem like they're losing that the tea party will accept. >> and we need to figure out what's going to happen on october 17th. i guess in combination with all of this disarray, the fact that you have people in the house, republicans in the house, not just ted yoho, but also richard

burton, not in the house, but in congress saying, you know, is defaulting on the debt such a big deal? maybe it's going to be like sequestration or maybe it's going to be like the government shutdown and maybe we should just try it and see. it's literally like why your parents tell you not to smoke pot. before you know it, yourself going to be hitting the heroin pipe. >> unlike pot -- >> it's not a game, right. >> this is -- to say nothing of the legalization of it. it's like a gateway drug. that's what the government shutdown has basically been. >> it's true, and you know, i think you're looking right now at something of a little mistake that the administration made with sequestration that's coming back to bite them now, which is that they sold sequestration as absolute doom for all of us. the problem is, it has been unquestionably bad for a lot of people. most of us -- you know, people are getting letters saying your premiums are going up due to obama care. the people who have been affected by the sequester did not get letters saying, by the

way, you lost your job thanks to the sequester. other than the people who work for the government. so look, there are going to be people anyway who said, oh, the default isn't a big deal, obama just lies, period. but the administration has helped them a little bit by -- by exaggerating some previous stuff. >> i think also the media has failed on some level in terms of reporting on sequestration and following that as well as we should have. >> sequestration was a little different. that was actually communication between different members of the american government. nobody had done that before. what's interesting and unusual here is that they shouldn't be listening to barack obama on the debt ceiling. they should be listening to jpmorgan, to goldman sachs, to the chamber of commerce, and the entire republican business community and business community in general has come to washington. you cannot do this. the line from jpmorgan's chief economists is defaulting on the

debt is like that bosch painting of hell. >> do we have a full screen of that? kidding. >> the amazing thing is like richard oren hatch, the ranking senator on the senate finance committee, don't believe the business community. it's not just that they're skeptical of obama. that's understandable for republicans. they've stopped listening to business community, economists, expertise in general. >> luke, the predicate here is that somehow john boehner quiets the tea party or throws them under the bus. if there is a deal, i thought yesterday some big things happened, which is to say the president opened the door and was quite frank about the fact the white house would accept a very short-term extension of the debt ceiling or raising of the debt ceiling and a continuing resolution. that was not the position before. that seems to be a major overture to john boehner and the house republicans to which john boehner responded, that is unconditional surrender. do we have any hope that if there is a bargain it would include some of these terms?

>> well, boehner is saying unconditional surrender is really his way of staking out that hard core position that he's been doing all along, which is trying to show his rank and file he's going to fight to the bitter end. we've now started to see how a compromise could come together. howard fineman wrote an important piece today where he said heritage action and freedom works have said, look, we have no problem with extending the debt limit, albeit temporarily, if we can keep the fight and focus on the president's health care law. so that is, in fact, true. those arms that really run the hard core conservatives in the house gop conference say let the de limit be raised, albeit temporarily, continue the fight on the health care law. perhaps there's some scenario where the government is continuing to be shut down but the debt limit is raised. however, when you look at the possibility -- >> really? wait, just stop there one second. we raise the debt ceiling but the government remains shut down. >> one plausible scenario. i think democrats would say, you can't do that, and the president would be putting forward a hard core negotiating tactic on that,

but it's a possibility. what i will also say, though, is from the president saying he would have a temporary government funding bill, temporary debt limit, you can sort of see the program teraram deal. the president puts that forward. boehner can say, hey, guys, we're going to keep up the fight, we just need more time to negotiate. let's not bring down the entire world economy with us on this. then you sort of see these longer conversations where the parameters of the negotiation would then be what the deal is. so, okay, we have to figure out some way to drive down debt and entitlement, and maybe youive us chain cpi if we don't do that and we'll give you, you know, capital gains. something like that. that probably wouldn't happen on capital gains. something in that parameter. >> i just think any concession at this point. if boehner says to the caucus, listen, we got chained cpi, we got our budget, we got this funded at our levels, and in exchange we add to concede any kind of concession at this point would be a victory.

i think boehner's out if he has to make any concessions. >> heritage action gives him some good cover, though. that's why the piece by fein man is important. if those guys are serious, if they say we're not going to push forward on the debt limit as much, that gives him some substantial cover to move forward and avert the worst of what could possibly happen. >> but you still have the problem with the administration. okay, fine, the debt ceiling is done. say we have extension of six to eight weeks on that. you still have the problem of asking the president of the united states to upend his signature piece of legislation, his signature accomplishment. it just will not happen. there is no negotiating point for this administration on this issue. i don't know what or how boehner and the tea party trian late the president into a position that he's going to say, not only to the american people, but more specifically to his own base, that i'm going to throw this

under the water, under the bridge just to get this done. i don't see that. >> i would modify that. i agree with you in general on that, but i think that a bigger part of the problem that people recognize is that the republican party, first, they won't negotiate over the shutdown. say you open the government, then you could have a negotiation with the democrats. i think they would be open to making changes on obama care. people talk about the medical device tax, which republicans say -- the thing is, and this has been the problem, republicans don't want to give anything back. the democratic party, and i think the president, would be open to trading things back, even on obama care. >> the real battle is not obama care. that's a separate kind of fight. the real battle is the debt ceiling. >> i don't know, luke. it's going to be real busy up there on capitol hill, my friend. thank you, as always, for your time. >> we're working this weekend as well, as mr. cantor said. >> every weekend is a working weekend for you, my brother.

>> the war on weekends continues. >> the war on weekends. luke russert, the sage of capitol hill, thanks for your time. >> take care. be well. >> after the break, president obama is set to name janet yellen as the first female chief of the federal reserve. but it wouldn't be an obama nomination if there wasn't already republican opposition. we will discuss the yellen pick and monetary hawks versus doves when cnbc's eamon javrs joins us next on "now." ♪ [ male announcer ] may your lights always be green. [ tires screech ] ♪ [ beeping ] ♪ may you never be stuck behind a stinky truck. [ beeping ] ♪ may things always go your way. but it's good to be prepared... just in case they don't. toyota. let's go places, safely.

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later this afternoon, president obama will announce janet yellen as his pick to held the federal reserve when current chair ben bernanke steps down in

january. if confirms, yellen would become the first female to run the central bank. she chaired bill clinton's council of economic advisers and spent six years running the san francisco fed before serving as bernanke's number two at the central bank. "usa today" has touted her. it was no more evidence in 2007 when she foreshadowed the housing crisis saying, i still feel the presence of a 600-pound gorilla in the room, and that's the housing market. in addition to being spot on about the real estate investment bubble and the slow pace of recovery, a wall street journal analysis found that yellen produced the most accurate forecast of all of the current fed officials from 2009 through 2013. joining us now from washington is cnbc's eamon javers. eamon, thanks for joining us. >> thank you, alex.

>> let's talk about yellen. there was a lot of debate over whether or not the president would pick larry summers. he seemed to have shied away from the battle that would have been. how easy do you expect yellen's confirmation process to be? >> i think she'll get through, but we've already seen some republican opposition. senator bob corker within minutes of the announcement put out a press release saying he's voted against her in the past and he's going to look at her record, but he doesn't think it's changed all that much from it the last time he was against her. i think there's going to be some republican opposition here. the key is that the democrats are going to be fired up. the president is giving senate democrats and capitol hill democrats up here pretty much what they want. he didn't pick larry summers, who was his first choice. he's going with janet yellen. she's got a lot more support up here. >> ezra, yellen's -- while he's more forcefully advocated for

monetary stimulus -- >> yeah, this is a very big deal. what she saw wasn't just that the financial crisis was going to hit, not just that it the housing market was going to hit, but if you look back in those transcripts, other people are saying, yeah, but how big? sheets like, the credit markets. but this is really important. if you look at federal reserve forecasts, the obama administration's forecast, everybody comes out and says, you know what, this is going to be really bad and it's going to be over. she's a very persistent voice saying i don't think the recovery is going to go that well. it's going to be slow and grinding. she's done incredible work. a speech she gave a year ago was one of the clearest things about what what was going to happen. she's been extremely, extreme little thoughtful on what was going to happen here. the fed has over time moved into her position. she's really been a leader there. now, at some point, she's going

to have to figure out how to make the call to reverse that. but people talk about this all the time. i still don't think that's job number one yet. job number one is still supporting the economy and getting people back to work. yellen still sees that as a major, major task, which makes her different than some other monetary policy candidates. >> and for that, eamon, yellen is known in finance or economic circles as a dove because she's more concerned about unemployment than inflation, as hawks are. >> exactly. so the question for republicans is, is she going to continue this loose-money policy? how do you turn that around? you know, looking into the future there is going to be one of the key challenges for her. it's a very, very big challenge because the fed's really in uncharted waters. >> and she advocates keeping our interest rates near zero until unemployment falls to 6.5%.

given the pace of recovery, who knows how long that could be. >> that could be years. the fed has a dual mandate. what yellen's selection would represent is a shift in the balance of that dual mandate. a little less concerned about inflation, more concerned about unemployment. that's an ongoing shift we have seen with bernanke. it's an ongoing shift with yellen. that's what makes republicans nervous. they'd rather worry about inflation right now. they worry about the impact of all of this stimulus that the fed has been injecting into the economy, but the yellen camp would say, we can't do anything until we have a recovery. we have to get the recovery going, then let's talk about inflation. until then, it's not a problem. that's the $64 billion question here. >> i feel like there are a lot of billion-dollar questions happening now on capitol hill. >> trillion-dollar questions. >> exactly. cnbc's eamon javers, thanks as always. >> you bet. coming up, president obama defends his decision to conduct terror raids in libya and somalia, but his explanation for holding a suspect in a ship off the coast of africa is another

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about trying or adding a biologic. this is humira, adalimumab. this is humira working to help relieve my pain. this is humira helping me through the twists and turns. this is humira helping to protect my joints from further damage. doctors have been prescribing humira for over ten years. humira works by targeting and helping to block a specific source of inflammation that contributes to ra symptoms. for many adults, humira is proven to help relieve pain and stop further joint damage. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal events, such as infections, lymphoma, or other types of cancer, have happened. blood, liver and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure have occurred. before starting humira , your doctor should test you for tb. ask your doctor if you live in or have been to a region where certain fungal infections are common. tell your doctor if you have had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have symptoms such as fever,

fatigue, cough, or sores. you should not start humira if you have any kind of infection. ask your doctor if humira can work for you. this is humira at work. you are now looking at video from dover air force base in delaware just moments ago. the remains of army private first class cody patterson are returning from afghanistan. his family is present, but due to the government shutdown, they have not yet received the military death benefits that the government typically sends a family after a soldier is killed in the line of action. defense secretary chuck hagel was also in attendance. andrea mitchell is reporting live from dover air force base and will have the latest on this story at the top of the hour. coming up, a group of republican senators calls on the white house to move terror suspect anas al libi to

guantanamo bay. we'll discuss the legal gray areas in the war on terror with the aclu. that's next. tor? not yet. but i took this new clearblue test. it's like two tests in one. oh, my god. i think i'm gonna cry. [ female announcer ] the new clearblue pregnancy test also estimates how many weeks. weeks estimator. only from clearblue. wee♪s estimator. (announcer) answer the call of the grill with new friskies grillers,

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♪ did the captor of mr. libi comply with international law? >> we know that mr. al libi planned and helped execute plots that killed hundreds of people, a whole lot of americans, and we have strong evidence of that. he will be brought to justice. >> consider that a dodge. after last weekend's capture of the al qaeda leader charged with orchestrating the 1998 embassy bombings in kenya and tanzania, the obama administration finds its counterterrorism policy once again subject to scrutiny. in what some call a return to bush-era tactics, al libi is being questioned on a ship on the arabian sea without a lawyer. while the aclu and many on the left are decrying the lack of

due process, president obama is also receiving criticism from those on the right, saying al libi should be sent to the prison at guantanamo bay. >> they're treating him as an enemy combatant in the law of war. that's a good decision. the bad decision is not to put him in a permanent confinement facility that would allow long-term interrogation. this system of using navy vessels, navy warships compromises our ability to gather intelligence. >> a navy vessel is not a substitute for a detention facility like at guantanamo bay, which is a top-rate detention facility. >> al libi to the top-rate detention facility at guantanamo bay remains unlikely, as president obama has ruled out adding inmates to the cuban prison. what remains unclear is al li libi's ultimate fate. with most republicans opposed to civilian trials in the u.s., will the administration bring al libi to american soil to face criminal charges.

joins us now is the director of the aclu's national security project. thank you for joining us. >> thanks for having me. >> it is always a thorny issue, that of national security. just playing that tape, you can see while some people are saying, look, this man should be read his miranda rights, keeping him afloat on a sea vessel is no way to actually -- that is not justice and that's not the american way of law and order. that is in violation of geneva conventions. you have republicans saying send him to gitmo. i want to talk about from the aclu's perspective. you say al libi has the right to counsel. tell us why you have that position. >> first of all, let me say those saying that mr. al libi should be sent to guantanamo are trying to fight a battle they've already lost. there's no way that's going to happen, and that's the right thing. some are talking about the obama administration setting up a new model for terrorism suspects. if that's the case, this is the exact wrong model. this is a man who has been charged with very serious crimes

in our criminal justice system. he should immediately be transferred to civilian custody, brought before a judge, and yes, given his right to counsel. there is this myth that somehow having counsel prevents information being obtained through interrogation. that is wrong. indeed, having counsel often means that we're going to be able to get more and better information that can be used at trial and is not going to jeopardize the fair trial rights that our system affords. >> and alex, i mean, the sort of thesis here seems to be, or the strategy, is we keep him on this ship for as long as we can, get as much intel from him as we can, then potentially he comes to u.s. soil, stands trial, but none of the information gleaned on the ship is admissible in the trial, therefore that makes it okay. it's something that we've done

in 2011 and in 2001, the bush administration held john walker lind on a ship. >> i think the problem for the administration here is you've got -- the argument that we can get intelligence if somebody is lured, is absolutely accurate. but there's a strong public perception it's not accurate. the problem is you can be a civil libertarian in principle. when you're president, i would imagine that the thing that keeps you up at night is am i going to be the president who lets americans get killed by a dirty bomb or some sort of terrorist attack. the right thing to do, the smart thing to do may be to bring him immediately to the u.s. to give him a lawyer and say, okay, let's talk. but it's certainly not going to be the politically astute thing to do. and it's going to be the thing that a lot of people tell you, you're wrong, and if something

bad happens, it's your fault. i would imagine it's hard to live with yourself hearing that. >> but that doomsday scenario is simply not the case here. and imagine this. imagine if any other country claimed the right to sweep in, capture someone, hold them in military custody, and hold them in this kind of interrogation detention, what would we say? is this the model that this administration wants to leave behind? i don't think so. >> and michael steele, we were talking about this in the break, this idea that the rules must be elastic because the field of battle is everywhere. the enemy sun seis unseen. it makes it difficult to lay down any principled positions when you say everything is up for grabs. >> i think that's why the administration finds itself in the crosshairs here between the reality of a gitmo, which is an established process, procedure under the rule of engagement as defined by the bush administration, which they have bought into, quite frankly, in many respects, and this sinense

of, well, we're going to treat these terrorists as if they're american citizens and afford them all these rights. >> miranda rights, for example. >> if i commit a crime over there, how -- the question a lot of americans ask, how do miranda rights attach to you in afghanistan? if you're caught on afghan soil and you committed terrorist acts in the middle east, how do we apply those rights that we have if we go down to the 7-eleven and blow something up? that's your point to where the administration has not been clear in explaining how this new reality is going to fit in with the current reality. >> to it the u.s. constitution. >> again, a lot of americans don't attach u.s. constitutional rights to terrorists. if you're going to do that, you need to explain to the american people why you're doing that. you can't rely on the aclu to do that exclusively.

there has to be a policy or some other type of nex sus that you bring this all in. you go out on the streets of new york and you ask people, should these rights attach, and the answer overwhelmingly will be no. >> it's not just relegated to foreign fighters like this one. dzhokhar tsarnaev was not read his miranda rights for 48 hours using the public safety exception. i think, again, to michael steele's point or to alex's point, the popular sort of position here, the politically expeditious position is to say these guys are terrorists, justice will be done, and we're worry about the details later. >> it is very dangerous to create some kind of exception for terrorism, which is, yes, a grave crime, but it is a crime that our criminal justice system is used to handling. in response to your question, your point, responsible policymaking requires explaining to the american public that giving people fair trial rights that our system has had for hundreds of years does not mean making us weaker.

it actually means making us stronger. >> on that note, does it surprise you there's still a conversation about gitmo? i mean, given where we would think some parts of public opinion should be, which is that gitmo has been a pox on our democracy, has not been good in terms of our broader foreign policy goals, there you have lindsey graham and kelly ayotte saying not only let's not worry about closing gitmo, let's add to the prison. >> it doesn't surprise me. although, the people advocating adding people to guantanamo are margin aized. that's not the real debate. the real debate is how to make the closure of guantanamo happen. we've seen renewed, revitalized efforts from the administration. we don't think they're quick enough. we don't think enough is being done right now. but they're moving in the right direction. i don't think anyone who's a serious, responsible policymaker would want to see us perpetuate the human rights and national security nightmare that is guantanamo. >> you know, ezra, it's worth

noting that the cost of each gitmo inmate per year is $900,000, whereas in a super max prison t would cost the u.s. government $60,000 to $70,000. this is just sort of an example that when it comes to national security, counterterrorism, the military, and defense operations, there's a different standard with republican budget hawks. >> money suddenly is no object. it's fascinating. although, one thing that's been puzzling is part of the perception michael is talking about is this kind of belief that terrorists are somehow so dangerous that if we put them in a super max prison, something unspecified but awful would happen. this was the argument about running gitmo. they weren't saying open gitmo, take people to new york city, let them loose. nobody wanted a super max prison holding terrorist suspects in america. they didn't want it in their district. they didn't want it in their state, as if they can shoot lasers from their eyes or fly through the roof. you cannot recruit very

effectively in a super max prison. >> really? >> really. >> you believe that? >> yes, if you're -- >> if you say these guys aren't that dangerous to it the average american, i think the average manner is going to be like, you're crazy. >> that's exactly what i think. that's what we've done. we've blown terrorists, who are often jokers on some level. they're dangerous in their element but not more dangerous than normal criminals. they're not incredibly strong or perceptive or intelligent or strategic people. they're somehow these super villains who we need to be afraid of on a different level. >> good luck of convincing americans of that. >> i'm not trying to convince americans. >> just like there are no drugs in super max prisons. >> ezra does bring up a point. you can look at the boston marathon bombings. when the entire city of boston was shut down to find a 17-year-old or a 19-year-old, i can't remember how old he was, but there were folks who said, what are we doing in the name of national security and terrorism? is this cost worth the benefit?

now, i think that everybody wanted to see him caught, captured, and brought to just e justice. at the same time, there's a question about how much we're spending, the surveillance state we've established. some people would say the shredding of certain parts of u.s. constitution in the name of keeping us safe. the conversation around that is a very, very quiet one and tends to be in a smaller part of the room than it should be. >> it is. right now what we have are conversations based on fear instead of actually based on fact, on rationale, on what actually happens. as a result of that, we have burgeoning financial costs, surveillance costs, costs to our privacy, when the reality is, as one federal judge said to a terrorism suspect who was being convicted, you think you're bigger than you are. you're not. you are a criminal, and we are going to be able to deal with you in our criminal justice system and prevent you from achieving the aims you might have. that's exactly the right

strength-based approach. we don't need a fear-based approach. >> that works until the next terrorist attack. that's the reality that most americans have. you're right. it is a fear-based approach, but they sit and see that we've been safe so far by some of these measures that are draconian. >> it's hard to prove a negative. >> it's the balance. >> thank you, as always. >> thank you. >> coming up, andrea leon tally joins us live in studio. that's just ahead. i'm angela, and i didn't think i could quit smoking but chantix helped me do it. i told my doctor i think i'm... i'm ready. [ male announcer ] along with support, chantix (varenicline) is proven to help people quit smoking. it reduces the urge to smoke. i knew that i could smoke for the first 7 days. i knew that i wasn't putting nicotine back into my body to try to quit. [ male announcer ] some people had changes in behavior, thinking or mood, hostility, agitation, depressed mood and suicidal thoughts or actions while taking or after stopping chantix. if you notice any of these, stop chantix and call your doctor right away.

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he's worked with everyone from anna wintor to cher. now he has a new book and provocative thoughts on the fashion world. andre leon tally joins me next on "now." asional constipation, diarrhea, gas, bloating?

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designer tom ford has called him one of the last great fashion editors. and a recent profile in "vanity fair" designated him possibly the industry's most important link to it the why the design world listened when andre leon tally united with other leading black voices in fashion to express disappointment in the lack of diversity on the runway at new york's fashion week last month. following the call for more models of color, the runways in paris last week reflected a change. in a conversation with "the daily beast" this week, tally said, we, the black coalition, have made great strides. valentino opened its show in paste with a black model. in milan, an all-black cabine. since 1983, tally has influenced

friends and styled cher and kim kardashian. his latest book is a project entitled "little black dress." joining me now is "vogue" contributing editor, the great on dre l andre leon tally. >> i'm so happy to be here. >> i'm glad you've taken up this mantle about diversity in fashion. tell us how -- it seems like a very obvious thing, the idea that runways are basically all white. how did you first sort of pick up the mantle in this fight? >> we noticed it since, like, 2007 and before. but when i was young and growing up in the great, great moments of fashion in the '70s and '60s, every super model on the runway was black. suddenly in the '90s, it

changed. suddenly everyone thinks one black model in a show is okay. a lot of designers were doing shows with no black models. so the people in the industry got together. there were letters sent out internationally to the people who run fashion week in milan, london, new york, and paris. we can safely say we've seen progress this season after this awareness. we're not calling people racist. we just think it's a racist act when designers, some of them who embrace color, just think that one model is enough. we're not asking that the whole show be black like philip plein. that was a relevant moment. we just want to be seen. industries should be accountable. this industry of fashion is someti sometimes forgotten what a color of person can be. i saw a black person last night at the event i was -- at 92nd street. black women also shop at celine

and chanel. >> yes, and for a country that's only going to see its minority population grow. this is a group that has enormous purchasing power. >> it's very shortsighted, but we're thrilled to say we have seen progress. we think that the bookings of black models across the board in four countries went up 8% since this letter went out from the diversity coalition just before the beginning of fashion week in september. as you've seen the models on the airways, expressing their disconte discontent. they just want the legacy to continue. >> and understandably so. i want to talk to you about your latest fabulous gig, which is at numero russia. as long as we're talking about diversity of color and opinion and so on and so forth, russia has come out with some anti-gay laws. >> terrible. >> i wonder to what degree

that's something you are conscious of this and fighting. >> first of all, i took this job in february. i've been to russia twice since february. i haven't gone back. i'm reluctant to go back. i do all my work from new york. it's transferred on the internet. they do high-res and we get the cover printed. since putin has put this law into operation, i cannot name -- one of the world's greatest designers says, i have storing in russia. i'm never going back until that law changes. i'm reluctant to go there. i've expressed that. i hope this changes. i hope people boycott the winter olympics. i think it's absolutely outrageous. it's a very strange culture. as you well know, russia is extraordinary in terms of its history, its writers. it starting with putin and goes down. at times i've felt the presence of skinheads in the streets. i won't go to the airport without two people escorting me. i've asked for security the next time. i sense that if you walk down

the street, just take a breath of fresh air from it the hotel, you might not feel comfortable. >> i think for a lot of americans and international people, those words carry a lot of meaning. the fact you're the head of the magazine is a testament to them embracing -- >> it embraces everything. color, gender, gay, everything. i'm shocked. i also say that i have an article coming out in the next issue. i have subversively interviewed people who are gay and who are married and have children, and they just don't know what they're getting in these fabulous interviews. it's going to be a big surprise. >> well, we will certainly be looking for it and at it. the book "the little black dress" is out. it's a fabulous book and gives us a sense of the role of fashion in your life and where you came from. >> thank you so much, alex.

this was my first big show. actually, this is a dress that was donated to the museum. i said, what can i put -- it's a fabulous t-shirt dress. >> i need to make a huge xerox of it and wear it paper doll style. andre leon talley, a pleasure and honor. >> always. so happy to be here. thank you. >> thank you to our panelists. that's all for now. andrea mitchell reports is live from the dover air force base and coming up next. ouncer ] this is claira. to prove to you that aleve is the better choice for her, she's agreed to give it up. that's today? [ male announcer ] we'll be with her all day to see how it goes. [ claira ] after the deliveries, i was okay. now the ciabatta is done and the pain is starting again. more pills? seriously? seriously. [ groans ] all these stops to take more pills can be a pain. can i get my aleve back? ♪ for my pain, i want my aleve.

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