whose are doing the right thing. no matter what the political cost. >> jeannine and mason reid, thank you for joining us tonight. good luck, mason. >> thanks. >> thanks, lawrence. >> chris hayes is next. bitter tea. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews in los angeles out here for the tonight show. let me start tonight with this. the sky is falling on the republican one liners. they promised not to bring down the economic position in the world. especially for ted cruz, his unfavorables have doubled.

but it's the whole party that's taking a beating tonight. people don't like having their government held captive, don't like their economy being threatened and guess what. they now like the president's health care plan a lot more. it hurts the country too much to laugh, but let's face it, even the republicans are facing it tonight. they followed the wrong leader into the wilderness. they went off a cliff because a bugle boy out there blew charge into the nasty winds of reality. they got drew into a cause that no one can explain now. did ted cruz only have one cause? could it have been ted cruz? and is john boehner about to take back the banner of leadership? can he? will he? before his party is drawn further into regret. and will he? chuck todd, ed rendell, michael steele. there have been major developments in washington today with john boehner proposing now a six-week debt ceiling increase. but the government would we main shut under his plan. and republicans are calling for negotiations now to work out a longer deal on the budget, on

the debt, and then to reopen government after that. republican leaders went to the white house today for a meeting with president obama late this afternoon. just in the last half hour nbc news has released the results of the latest poll. it is devastating for republicans. when asked who do they blame for for the shutdown? 53% said the republicans in congress. 31% said the president. meanwhile, 70% of americans say congressional republicans are putting their own political agenda ahead of what's good for the country. and when asked what they want the makeup of the next congress to look like, 39% said republican-controlled while nearly 50% now say they want the democrats back in charge. chuck, this is something. i get the sense this is an historic poll. >> it is. look, there's no bones about it. the shutdown has been an unmitigated political disaster

for the gop. there's more numbers in here. their negative rating of 53% in our poll is historic. they have never been that low in the nearly 25-year history of this poll. you've got the two numbers that you pointed out. they've got 22-point advantage on getting the blame for the shutdown. the fact that even 40% of republicans, essentially the non-tea party republicans and that's a whole separate story, there is a stark divide inside the republican party that's going to start playing itself out the longer this goes on. but when you even have 40% of those non-tea party republicans say they're putting politics ahead of the country. the president, his approval rating actually went up a couple of points. hostility toward the health care law has lessened. everything that this shutdown was supposed to be about for republicans has boomeranged on them. >> peter hart who has been around as a democratic pollster.

do they agree this is one-sided fault line right now that's going in one direction? >> both of them use the same phrase, chris, when they looked at these numbers. they said jaw dropping. peter hart said in his 30, 40 years of polling, you only get this about four or five times in a lifetime. a poll that is so resounding, that's so -- moves in such a quick and fast way as these numbers did, that it was surprising to him. but they both offer a warning here. it's not a seesaw for the democrats in this poll. it is a basically big lead rock for the republicans. but it is not all transferring to the democrats. there is some. they're getting boosted a little bit on that generic ballot. but what you really have here is a public who is angry and fed up. they clearly believe the republicans are driving the country off a cliff right now with the shutdown hurting the economy.

they feel terrible about the direction of the country. but peter hart would caution the democrats shouldn't be jumping up and down here because it's creating a public that is really distrustful of washington to be able to solve problems. >> last question, compared to watergate. >> well, compared to watergate, that's the -- is it watergate levels? you might be talking about something about it. if this were a month out from the election. but we're not a month out from the election. >> i got that. >> you got more than a year. >> governor rendell, you've been through a lot of elections. let's talk about this. one number that struck me, not just the tilt against republicans. the country's really angry. you can hear it in the comedians' voices, the public. they're ticked. 78% of the american people, four out of five, now believe this country is headed in the wrong direction. i've never seen such unity of opinion that whatever is going on in d.c. right now they don't

like. >> and it's solely driven by the politics, not by the economy or anything else. solely driven by our inability to function as a government. and the republicans are bearing the brunt of this. it's not just the nbc poll. gallup says 28% of people feel favorable of the republican party. down from 30% last month. 62% unfavorable. those are crushing numbers. crushing numbers. >> let me go back to michael. you've had experience in the republican party. you've led it in the past. it seems to me like it's not about values. people do think the debt is too big. people do have questions about the new health care law. all that is legitimate debate in a democracy. that's what we do. we fight and argue. it's about tactics. i think ted cruz is recognized now as the bad guy. i think ted cruz said starting this summer let's use the debt, let's use the government shutdown as a tool, a weapon if you will, to screw health care

or to kill the baby in its crib, if you will. and i don't think he's right. i don't think the people think he's right. they think he caused this mayhem. your thoughts. >> i don't think i'd go that far. i don't think there was that much thought put into this to be honest. >> by him? >> by anybody. there was a political vacuum created with a lack of a strategy, a lack of a message, and a lack of a direction in leading the country through a conversation on obama care, number one, and now into this period where we're trying to link this to debt ceiling. and ted cruz filled that void. he filled that vacuum with his own message and his own sense of where he thought the country should be heading on this. and he brought the party into it. there was very little resistance at first. there was a lot of the back room chatter that we hear. it didn't amount to too much. there was no concise, precise effort by the leadership to move this thing in a different direction.

you had people talking about the fight -- >> do you think john boehner likes being called a vacuum? because i think you're right. >> i'm not calling -- >> but you said there was a vacuum there. >> chris, you personalize it. i'm not personalizing this to john boehner. i'm saying the republican party as a whole left a vacuum in the conversation with respect to what it wanted to do. 40 votes on obama care was not a conversation with the american people. and now we're up against a wall on the debt ceiling and we have that reality now trying to be into a conversation on the debt. so i just -- the poll numbers bear out that the country is pissed and they're pissed at us. we've got to do something with this going forward. if we don't, this gets worse. >> let me go back to chuck on the numbers and how you analyze them objectively. nbc poll is dead objective.

very strong non-partisan over the years. 78%, chuck. it seems to me that that anger is going to find its way to somebody. maybe not ted cruz although i think he will get a lot of it inside washington. i saw his numbers, his negatives in just the time we've heard of him in june have doubled. he's climbing in the villain category. >> he is, but this really is the aim of congress. this 78% number, we've only hit that one other time and that was right after lehman brothers collapsed. the worst economic recession since the depression, we hit 78%. and this political crisis that has been caused on capitol hill by the tea party republicans has equalled that. we are in a political depression. a great political depression.

>> well said. >> that's what these poll numbers are saying. so it is an angry public. and when you look at it inside, democrats are rallying around the president. that's why his numbers went up. his numbers didn't go up amongst independents. but they're really sour on the republicans and they really believe the republicans are the ones being politically -- that are playing politics here much more so than they believe the president is or congressional democrats. >> thanks for that great report on the new poll just out today. chuck todd, thank you. according to politico, speaker boehner told republicans this morning quote we can't fight on two fronts. that's when he proposed raising the debt ceiling for six weeks. let's watch him. >> what we want to do is to offer the president today the ability to move, a temporary increase in the debt ceiling, an agreement to go to conference on the budget, for his willingness to sit down and discuss with us

a way to reopen the government. >> well, he looks a little happier there. jay carney responded cautiously. >> the president is happy cooler heads at least seem to be prevailing. in the house. we'll see what house republicans propose and pass. and consider it then. >> this afternoon after meeting with the president, harry reid was asked if the senate would vote on a debt dreelg extension without first reopening the government. reid said not going to happen. let me go to governor rendell. this is going to continue. this inability to think large and not go for the other guys

below the belt. i mean, why didn't the republicans say, look, the country doesn't like debt. nobody likes debt. they don't like deficit spending. nobody likes it. we're going to do something about it. instead they went after the baby. the one thing he will never give up on. they say screw you. to me that's not negotiating. i don't think. >> no, you're right, chris. and in fact, you can see they've abandoned that. there's no talk on the health care act at all anymore. they should have fought on debt. and right now they're taking the wrong strategy. the american people are more concerned on a day-to-day basis with the debt limit. they don't understand the debt ceiling and they think the debt should stay low. but they do know the consequences of the government shutdown. what the republicans ought to do is say, okay, we're going to reopen the government. we're going to raise the debt level for six weeks. and in that six-week period we're going to try to negotiate to do something that will in the long-term reduce the debt.

that would get them back on solid ideological grounds and grounds that a lot of americans agree with. but they've chosen again the wrong avenue. and they're going to pay for it. >> thank you, governor rendell. thank you michael steele. coming up, the man who led the republicans into this abyss, ted cruz. with each day he looks more and more like a roman candle. all noise and bright lights but burning out. and they funded the republican redistrict and gerrymandering and now they find they may not be able to slay the monster they created. isn't it interesting how much of government republicans want to fund now that they've shut it down? head start, fund it. veterans, fund it. fund it, fund it. fun new how much republicans like government now after they're getting hurt for shutting it down. and let me finish tonight with how the last few weeks have given the american people a appetite of healthier politics.

this is "hardball," the place for politics.

last night was the final debate in the new jersey special senate election between democrat cory booker and republican steve lonegan. and with booker holding onto a lead in the polls, lonegan went on the attack. >> you may not be able to swim in that river, but it's probably because of all the bodies of shooting victims in your city. >> oh, my god. >> lonegan also blew a not so subtle dog whistle. >> all that income tax and sales tax money getting poured into the black hole of newark. the biggest portion of our tax dollars goes to newark, new jersey. >> notice that big black hole of newark. lonegan also cited ted cruz among those he most admires. and sarah palin's comment to campaign with him.

the election is next wednesday. we'll be right back.

welcome back to "hardball." i've compared ted cruz to a lot of things and his political assent to me as most shown as a roman candle. burning hot and short. but is the roman candle of texas already at risk of flaming out? he's facing nasty winds from a lot of fellow republicans lately. grover norquist originator of the pledge against raising taxes has described cruz as having fumbled the ball. quote, i think it was very possible for us to delay the implementation of obama care for a year until cruz came and crashed and burned. tom coburn of oklahoma gave cruz the i love him, but treatment on laura ingraham's radio show. >> i love ted cruz. i love the fact that he's got the p and vinegar in him to take on things. but i believe you ought to pick

battles you can win rather than kill your troops going up the hill. >> last week ron johnson called cruz's tactics to gut obama care intellectually dishonest. >> i think it's appropriate that we ask people who led this defund effort, which i would say in the end ended up being pretty intellectually dishonest. because there was never a chance of that working. >> and if people magazine is any indication, senator cruz is becoming better known although the magazine cover is of prince harry and his new girlfriend. but inside is a feature on senator ted cruz. jim moore is a political analyst in texas who covered senator cruz. joan walsh is an msnbc contributor and editor at large of salon. this guy, since june he's gotten better known and doubly hated. the more he's singled out as

someone people don't approve of. it's fast. i think he's a roman candle. up, all of excitement. and here it is the poll showing his unfavorables as i said. this guy is going nowhere. what's your thought? >> i agree he's going nowhere. he brought together left and right. we all agree we don't like him. that's one thing. i used to fear him as a 2016 contender and i don't so much anymore. i never thought he could win the presidency, but i thought he had a shot at the nomination. ron johnson and tom coburn are both, they don't deserve a whole lot more credit. because both of them are default deniers. they say they don't matter if we default. and they have voted with ted cruz. they haven't voted on a clean cr. they voted it down. harry reid has only passed that with democrats.

so i think he's succeeded in pulling his party to the right even though personally he's destroyed his popularity. >> you know, jim, thanks for joining us. i want you to look inside this guy from closer range. joe mccarthy who has a stylistic comparison to this guy failed because he didn't believe in the cause. it was just a way to create excitement about himself. because he drank himself to death. and writers said if he believed in his cause, he wouldn't have destroyed himself. he would have fought. if he really believed in what he said he believed in. what's ted cruz believe in? >> well, i do think he is a constructionist. he thinks that the constitution is guiding his politics. and i wouldn't say that he has deeply held principles, but he is going in that direction. one thing that you have to say about him that is undeniable is he loves to be the center of attention. this is a charismatic man. he loves commanding a room.

i don't think there's an underestimating that part of politics he enjoys. but he also wants to blow up things he doesn't believe in. i think the attention party is equally important to him. >> he seems to be a self-loathing republican. he doesn't like the parties. and at this luncheon last week members came outside and said he wouldn't even defend his colleagues from people further to the right. he doesn't have loyalty to the party. what is he loyal to then? what's he believe in? why is he republican? >> well, i think he is, but only in the sense the tea party republicans are republicans. that people are borderline anarchists, that they don't believe the government has any real roll or function and then getting the hell out of the way. that's what ted cruz is working for. he doesn't believe in taxation. he doesn't believe in the basic needs being provided in any way by the federal government.

we're all in this on our own. and if he can effect that, he makes the tea party happy and himself happy. again, i want to stress this thing about ted liking attention. because this is very much a case of a guy who loves it and he thinks he's going to be the nominee for president in 2016 for the gop. >> one thing we've learned in this country and our self-governing democracy, there is that. the checks on power. and in this country, the demagoguery is not a good career plan. it's a great plan for a couple weeks or months, joan. it works. like a roman candle. we all know it ain't going to live long. the heat level this guy's at. i don't think anybody left right or center can sustain his heat. it's in every direction. i want the attention right now. i want to destroy obama care. i want to bring down the government. i want to risk everything. how long can you pursue -- what do you do the next year after the first year like this? this is his first year. what's the second act look like?

>> let me contradict myself briefly. i don't believe he could get the nomination, but he could. because there is that foot of hatred in our country and our government. far right people believe that they were pushed, they were sold a bill of goods, a moderate in mitt romney and this time is their time. 2016 is their turn. he's popular in iowa. he really -- i don't think this is going to happen, but it could happen. because he really is giving voice to a very nihilistic, very angry, anti-government, out of touch sector of our society. and we don't know how destructive they are or how many of them there are, but they are the truth believers. he could go farther than we think just on that. >> back to the mccarthy comparison and no comparisons are perfect. but it seemed like people didn't like mccarthy as much as they didn't like his enemies. they knew he had gone overboard,

but they didn't like the enemies so much they were willing to put up with him? does anybody love him or the fact that he hates obama? >> he does have people who love him. his supporters are very, very serious people. especially here in texas. they're active and they're determined. >> what do they believe? >> what's that? >> what do they believe in? >> well, basically what i just said to you previously. they think the government's too big. they think the government shouldn't do anything. but the caveat on this as always, we don't like the government until we need the government. until we need the government to bail out wall street. until we need the government to mess in a woman's right to choose. >> when we have problems when agriculture, when we have droughts, when we have floods, when we have anything god made that's real and part of the history of this planet. it doesn't come occasionally, it's somewhere all the time. the very prospect of living on this planet means there's going to be things that happen you need help with. joan, i've learned -- we're going to get to this in the rest of the show, but i've learned in the last couple of days how many

the republican party when it comes down to it, loves the federal government. whether it's the monuments to world war ii, all the things they've spent their careers voting against they now say they want back big time because they're effected by the shutdown. what do they really believe about government? i only like when it's there or not there or when i need it or what? >> i see in polls people like it, so i've got to position to like parts of it. certain parts of it are easy to embrace. then when there's a flood or a tornado or hurricane, people like it too. but, you know, you asked what these people believe in, i wanted to be mean and say secession. there are people who have been crusading against the government going that far back. ted cruz told us he wanted more jesse helms in the senate. >> let's go back to something short of secession. it seems the biggest fear ted cruz has of obama care, affordable care act which is law of the land is that it will be

liked. he said that in january. let me go back to jim moore. that's amazing. he said his fear is that it would be like sugar, as he put it. people would become addicted to it. that's a way of saying they support it. but he says addicted because it carries a reference there. is that his real fear? that government is getting bigger in some cases because people want it to do certain things? >> well, i believe, chris, that this is very much the specter of social security. a law that the right and the republican party, a lot of them did not want. there's this fear now the democrats are going to give the country something the country believes in and uses. and the traffic on health.gov is clear there's just an overwhelming interest in this idea. and if the voters, if the electorate gets used to this and it's a value, they remember the party that gave it to them. and it's a threat to the republican party. it's a threat to the far right which wants to dismantle programs of this nature.

that's what he's afraid of. and they will push the myth of the welfare cadillac on this just like other programs. >> what an amazing admission. i hope they don't get what they want because they're like it and know where they got it. well stated. thank you. up next, a way furloughed federal employees in washington can vent their frustrations in this very tough time. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

well, this came out today. american adults scored below the national average on math, reading, and problem solving skills. do we need a test to know that we're not good at problem solving? can't we look at these morons in washington and the shutdown to figure that out. exactly. >> time for the sideshow. that was jay leno echoing the frustrations familiar to so many

americans right now. the big surprise last night came later in the show when ann romney was preparing a meal from her new cookbook. >> let me ask you something. so when you make this, does mitt come running? >> he can smell it and no matter where he is -- >> here we go. >> how are you? good to see you. >> what a regular guy, huh? be sure to catch the tonight show tonight. i'm going to be on to talk about my book about when politics -- well, i was in politics and it worked. next, many young people are probably familiar with the concept of drunk dialing. for those who aren't the phrase refers to the random and unfiltered phone calls people are prone to make while intoxicated. well, with thousands of furloughed employees taking to local d.c. bars, there's sure to be a lot of pent up anger directed at congress. now there's a website that helps

them let off some steam. drunk dial congress connects your call with the office of a random member of congress so that you can give them a piece of your mind. here's the message that plays before connecting frustrated callers to capitol hill. >> hi. is this government shutdown making you want to drink? well, it sure makes me want to drink. and let me tell you. when i drink i like to tell people what's on my mind. so in a minute, we're going to forward you to a member of the house of representatives and you can tell them what's on your mind and tell them to get back to work. >> whatever you think of that, they have been transferring a thousand calls an hour. up next, mad money is now fighting the tea party monster it helped create. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. i'only imy 60' i've got a nice long life ahead.

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we've never been there, and i think anyone who suggests they know exactly what that means would be projecting after 224 years of the history of paying all of our bills what happens if we stop paying all of our bills.

if congress fails to meet its responsibility, it could deeply damage financial markets, the ongoing economic recovery, and the jobs and savings of millions of americans. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was treasury secretary jack lew on capitol hill today taking on a recent scourge of default deniers that have emerged in the gop. these are republicans who are driven by the tea party obsession of destroying the president's standing. the republican threat of economic catastrophe has unnerved conservative business groups across the country. including the powerful koch brothers and the u.s. chamber of commerce. the irony here is that the gop busy lobby finds itself fighting against what it created. after the 2010 elections the chamber of commerce and others funneled millions of dollars into redistricting efforts around the country helping draw republican safe districts whose occupants are now far less vulnerable to challenges from

more moderate republicans. money talks. and already we're seeing business groups funding new primary challengers to take on tea partiers like amash, jones. thank you both for joining us. this happens in politics. we have groups that were once in bed together decide they're not in bed in terms of the final interests. nick, what happened here? it seems the logic is clear in what you point out in your reporting. that if you make it safe for republican, the only thing a republican risks is somebody to their right not necessarily someone to the middle. >> that is correct. after you've created these very safe districts, the tools you have which are advocacy, campaign dollars are less

effective. because they can't really be moves. the only real threat is from the right. but more importantly i think what's interesting and has been revealed is the business lobby which we think of as all powerful in washington actually doesn't have a lot of influence over this particular faction of tea party conservatives. the head of the national federation of businesses, small business lobby said to me yesterday these guys don't care what i think. that's astonishing when you think of how closely intertwined the small business world is with the gop. how many interests in common they have. what i've heard from people is for the business community, it's been all carrot for a long time but no stick. what's missing here is stick from the business guys. and what they're saying now is it's time for the stick. >> you know, kathleen, what always bugs me about political reporting because it's boring to me is any time you hear people talking about an election a year off or two years off, they talk about who has how much money in

the bank. that's supposed to decide the election. is it possible people on the hard right are getting small contributors to help them. in the primaries, they're more interested in keeping those people than the fat cats who will help in general. >> of course money helps. it's important, but it's not everything. the most important thing is the candidate every time. and in these districts that are being challenged that are going to be primaried from the other side now, they're not -- you know, some of those are -- it all depends on the district. some of those are ultraconservative. it doesn't matter how much money you throw at them, they're still going to put the incumbent back in office. the others that aren't so hard right may face serious challenges. but it really comes down mostly to the candidate. it has everything to do with the district itself and the composition. >> talk about mad money, look at this. since the shutdown began not too many weeks ago, a week ago, business interests have released

attacks. the chamber of commerce and 250 businesses warned the congress of a shutdown and default. 19 of the nation's largest banks meet with president obama to discuss economic harms of shutdown. and then the wall street journal talk of the kamikaze strategy. then october 6th the washington post reports business groups begin funding tea party challengers. then the koch brothers send out a letter warning of the obama care tactics. and then the coalition of business lobbyists are revolting to the party. and then today the gop offering a clean six-week exof debt limit. they're out there saying we had

nothing to do with tying obama care to the government shutdown or to the debt when, in fact, we know they've been fighting it like dogs to kill obama care any way they can. what's the truth here? >> well, that's an important distinction. the koch brothers and the political world around them, yes, they have funded or helped fund i should say, some groups that favor this strategy. but their own groups and they themselves do not think it's the best strategy. they've actually been pretty consistent for awhile. i think the letter yesterday was an effort to say, look, we support getting rid of obama care. this is not our strategy. we don't agree with it. we have a better strategy. >> didn't they support alec to go hard right on things like voter requirements, voter suppression, if you will? >> yeah. they support all kinds of conservative causes. but the koch world strategy on obama care is stop people from enrolling it, warn them about

rising insurance premiums, make the thing grind to a halt and then elect people who can overturn it. the strategy of doing it through this kind of brinksmanship is not one that some of the big funders support. >> only 20 seconds here, kathleen. honestly larger concerns perhaps on the world market than the grassroots. how's the republicans reconcile both points of view? >> i think it's over tactics and a lot of the republicans in the party had no intention of taking things to this point. i think at this stage, how do you get the tea party to sit down and play along with the more established, more conservative moderate parts of the party? and that has to do with will the president and speaker boehner and the other republican leaders, will they be able to

come up with some little bit of cover that allows these republicans, these tea partiers to say, see. we did get something for all of our effort. the trick is to separate it so the president doesn't have to say he negotiated. but everyone is looking for the fig leaf. i think everybody is ready to accept it. >> the president will negotiate. he's just not giving up his baby. and the people went after him to get the baby made a calculated error. they should have gone after debt and kept away from his legislative achievement which they have got to accept. that's my view. maybe not yours, but i love having you on the show. thanks for joining us. up next, for all their anti-government talk, it seems republicans like a lot of things the government does. like every one of them they like. nih, monuments, all kinds of things. and this is "hardball," the place for politics. i love that just washed freshness, but then it goes to the closet...to die. so try new glow unstopables. they fill your closet with scents so fresh they last for 12 weeks!

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you don't pick and choose the parts of government you like. government is supposed to function on behalf of the people. the people of the united states need a functioning government. and members of congress shouldn't say, well, today i like it, but tomorrow i might not. that's not how government works. it's a gimmick and it's one that should be soundly disagreed with. >> we're back. that was senator kirsten gillibrand in new york, last week chastising republicans for last week trying to pass piecemeal pieces of government. democrats want the entire government to reopen at once and all of it. nearly half a million federal workers right now remain furloughed without getting paid. national parks are closed and inadvertence may soon be without their benefits. but now the same republicans who shut down the government and often rail against it have decided that what some of government does just fine with them. look at all the government they want to start paying for right now. the military, veterans, national parks, head start, women and children living in poverty, national institutes of health,

air travel, air travel safety, food safety. imagine that, it's rich irony, isn't it, coming from the party that hates government, wants to shrink and it constantly advocate for budget cuts to the same programs they're now, like with crocodile tears, accusing the democrats of being against. joining me right now is jonathan allen of politico and lynn winsted, co-creator of "the daily show." thank you both for joining us. jonathan, does the raw gnaw of irony ever cross the bellies of these republicans, as these do these horrific claims of horror at the closing of a goth they never liked in the first place? i don't even know how to find the right metaphor for this. it's a hard one. >> there's no shame in politics, chris, as you well know. frequently, members of congress go out and rail against something, only to be supporting it in private or vice versa. this is no different here. look, do i think the republicans really believe in funding veterans and cancer research and those things? absolutely. but, you know, i think this is a little bit of a case of them, you know, of them making politics out of something that clearly the democrats support.

>> you know, liz, there was a great line from reagan back in the old days, where she said -- i'm sorry, charlie wilson. remember texas charlie wilson, "charlie wilson's war," he said, i hope reagan doesn't come out against sex. it's interesting how these people get into these things and then, hey, this affects me. i never thought of this. this stuff i'm saying, this bs i'm spewing every night, hey, it has a reality to it. we do like the memorials, we do like the national institutes of health, people do get cancer, they have to be dealt -- we need the research, we need meals on wheels, head start. these are good programs. and my people back home who say they hate government are pounding me for this shutdown. >> well, it shouldn't surprise anybody that these people don't understand how the political system even works. half of them don't even understand how a woman's reproductive system works, if you look at the things they try to legislate on that front. so, i really think you hit it on the head, chris. they don't understand the stuff

that they enjoy. and now it's dawning on them that this might be a bad idea. >> well, i think, is there going to be any lesson learned here, john? or is this just one of those things that goes -- we have to keep two conflicting ideas at the same time. one, we hate government. two, we don't hate government. is this just going to pass two weeks from now, or i'm sorry, probably two months from now, around thanksgiving time, the republicans will go back to blowing their horns the against government, after having begged to have to come back. >> i think they'll go back to blowing their horns against government. remember that the spending levels right now, democrats would argue, got important programs, including some of those republicans are saying right now, that they support so much and are accusing the democrats of not supporting by passing these pills on the house floor. the president, of course, has said it's a bad idea to start taking a piecemeal approach to government. republicans support what they call zero baseline budgeting, where you would create funding for each program, each year. democrats think that's a losing proposition. well, i don't understand why they would ever try to do it this way.

so, again, i think it won't be long before you hear republicans bashing government again. >> let me go back to liz. you know, they say they like defense, republicans tend to be, as a group, a bit more hawkish than democrats, but not in terms of supporting the military. both parties are whatever they are, but they're not particularly ideological about veterans benefits and things like that. but along come the republicans. it seems like they wrote that bill, shutting down the government, they wrote the exceptions. they never made the exceptions for what happens if you get killed in war, which is part of war. it happens. it's one of the statistical realities of war, which we all hate, but it's there. and they never allowed for the fact that some of our good gis are risking their life for this country and its values, including democracy, aren't going to make it back. and apparently according to the expert, the controller, they knew it when they did it that they were secluding the death benefits, the $100 k that goes to the family for travel and everything, they knew they were kissing good-bye to that and they did it. i don't get that part. >> i don't get, really, any of it, when they talk about that

there's been no compromise. because this clean cr they keep talking about is sequester-level cuts. and so, i feel like they don't know anything they've cut. and they haven't paid attention. and you have a whole bunch of people who try to fool the american people by saying, you know, the president hasn't compromised at all, when the cr they want to pass is practically as austere as the ryan budget itself. >> liz, by the way, i get a chance to say this on the air. you writers ton "daily show" are geniuses, and "the colbert report." i laugh my butt off listening to you guys. thank you so much, liz, who knows what's funny and what isn't. and john allen who knows what's true. we'll be right back after this.

let me finish tonight with this. one thing i've discovered, with all this hell on earth, it's given people a healthy attitude for better politics. tip and the gipper, when politics worked with and the real-life deal making of liberals will appear next week on "the new york times" best seller list. what does it tell you? it tells you this country is still a hopeful country, still a fair country, and knows that if we keep going in the direction we're going in right now, with four out of five americans saying it's the wrong direction, we're in for even worse trouble. we either learn to make self-government work or lose the one great asset this country has, the ability to work things out between left and right, between democrat and republican, and between congress and the presidency.