thanks so much for watching this afternoon. stay with msnbc throughout the evening for the very latest of the expected house vote to be brought by speaker john boehner. but up next, "the ed show" with my friend, ed schultz. good evening, americans, and welcome to "the ed show" live from new york. we've got some progress. let's t to work. ♪ >> it's been very clear all along what we as republicans in the house have wanted. >> at the heart and soul of it all, it's still obama. they don't want this deal. >> speaker boehner decides to light a match and throw it on the gasoline that's already all over the place. >> i love the smell of napalm in the morning. >> why are they doing this to the american people?

>> they don't want anything to work with the president's name connected to it. >> our top political priority should be to deny president obama a second term. >> you lose! good day, sir! >> there are a lot of opinions about what direction to go. >> wasting the public's time. and in this case, time is money. >> we're talking with our members on both sides of the aisle. >> you can't fight in here, this is a war room. >> that really does compromise speaker boehner's leadership. >> sabotaging a good faith, bipartisan effort, coming out of the senate. >> and after all this mess is over, do we really want to compromise john boehner as leaders of the house? i don't think so. >> my favorite play-by-play guy over the years has always been keith jackson. he would probably call it like this. oh, nanny, we got us a tea party showdown tonight. that's right, folks. in this house, there actually was some progress today.

we got some breaking news off the top. house republicans are putting forward a new version of a bill to keep the government open and to avoid default, which i still think is a very real possibility. i think we're going there. i hope not. and i'll tell you why later. the version released late this afternoon would keep the government funded through december 15th, and extend the debt limit through february 7th. they're playing around with the dates a little bit. this plan also eliminates the special obama care protections for labor unions in the senate agreement. well, the labor boys aren't going to like that. it also includes the vitter amendment. this amendment takes away the government employer subsidy to help purchase insurance on the obama care exchanges for congress, the president, cabinet members and hill staffers. john boehner's office said a vote is expected on all of this tonight. interesting, that last part is what boehner was for a month ago. now he's against it. you know, this is a far cry from

their earlier bill this morning. stop the president and the treasury from using extraordinary measures to raise the debt limit. they'll do anything to go after the president, won't they? it also delayed the medical device tax for two years, and the new bill does not strip the medical device tax. this is a big win for the president, if it goes through. there is no doubt that this was a day of capitulation for republicans. will the tea partiers revolt tonight? stay tuned. earlier, in their earlier bill, it received a storm of criticism from democrats this morning, and there was no way that it was going to pass the senate. after republicans released the first version of their bill today, senate majority leader, harry reid warned, credit agencies were eyeing another possible downgrade. >> the debt is here. the deadline is looming. rating agencies are talking about downgrading us as early as

tonight. again -- >> that is, i think, the curveball that was thrown to boehner and the republicans. that took them to the very point -- holy smokes, this might be the real deal. so there was capitulation on a number of different measures. and, of course, the backdrop is public opinion, is really damaging the republican party. but there was such a brouhaha over the weekend about veterans. i had an interesting phone call to my radio show today, a veteran, 57 years old, said, this is the consequences of a default. >> hey, ed. i'm a navy veteran. and no coward. but i am truly frightened to the bone right now. the republican recession of 2008 cost me my 401(k). i've worked all my life. done the right things. put money away. the only asset i have left is my house. and that's paid for. but this -- we go into default,

i lose $100,000 in value on my house. that day. interest rates for mortgages are going to go up a minimum of four points. and when that happens, the prices of houses go down. that's the only thing i've got left. i'm 57 years old, man. i don't have a lot of time to rebuild my nest egg. and these guys are just taking it all away from me. and they're taking it away on a daily basis. and i'm just thinking at this point, man, you know, when you take away everything everybody has got to lose, the consequences of that to the guys that take it away are not good. they're really bad. >> is that the kind of phone call that maybe some of the tea partiers have been taking to their offices in recent days? have they been shaken to their bones that maybe this would be the beginning of the end for them as a party? i don't know. but i do know this. tonight it's going to be a very

interesting vote. will the democrats come on board and give boehner a yes vote on this, because there are still some provisions in there that are a little bit shaky. but for the good of the country will they go along? and how tough will the tea partiers play it tonight? going to be interesting. get your cell phones out. tonight's question. do you trust republicans to keep us from the country's first-ever default? text a for yes, text b for no to 67622. you can always go to our blog at ed.msnbc.com. we'll bring the results later on in the show. late this afternoon, the president brought in leadership on the democratic side from the senate and from the house. and i thought that this was somewhat of a no ransom moment. this has been very fluid. it's almost like the sausage-making season. we think it's going to taste good, but we're not sure. in that meeting late this afternoon was congressman chris van hollen of maryland who met

with president obama and house democrats. congressman, great to have you with us tonight. great to be with you, ed, as always. >> where are we? what was this meeting like with the president? was this a no-ransom moment, was this a hold the line moment? where are we, congressman? >> well, it was a very productive moment. the president indicated that he thought they had been making progress in the senate on a bipartisan basis, that that effort had been, you know, coming together. what we've seen on the house side and our caucus, the democratic caucus in the house, is not fooled at all. is a deliberate effort, once again, by the reckless tea party faction, to try to shut down the government and default on our debt. that's exactly what's going on here. it's a deliberate effort to undermine and torpedo the progress in the senate. because you continue to have members of the house caucus who think that it's a good idea if the united states defaults on its debt, despite the terrible

consequences you just talked about. and i thought that was a really important case to show, because it shows the -- this is an impact on millions of americans. we're already beginning to feel the damage. we need to stop that now. pass a bill to keep open the government, pay our bills. >> okay. so the democrats tonight are here. open up the government, pay the bills, set a date, get a conference committee appointed and let's get to work on the budget. that basically is where the democrats are right now. you would vote for that. >> well, that's exactly right, ed. >> okay. >> as you well know -- exactly. that's where we are. >> okay. now, what is in there that you don't like, from what you know of the republican proposal in the house right now? >> well, there are a number of things, but the overriding issue here, ed, is continued effort by house republicans to try to extract demands by threatening the united states will not pay its bills. we have been very clear that you cannot go down that road of

political and economic blackmail. because if you start that process, every time the united states faces the issue of paying its bills on time, somebody is going to try to attach something unrelated. >> that's not going to happen again -- what guarantee do you have it won't happen again? >> i'll tell you one thing that will guarantee that it does happen again, if you feed the beast. in other words, if you start adding these extraneous provisions now. so what we're saying here in the house, ed, is stop it. you cannot bring down the full faith and credit of the united states by trying to attach these extraneous provisions. and if you let it happen this time around, it will certainly -- they'll certainly try to again. now, very specifically here in the house, their proposal would take away from the secretary of the treasury their ability to take what are known as extraordinary measures in order to try and prevent a futurity fault. so the next time we come up against the debt ceiling, the republican proposal would make it impossible for the secretary

of treasury to take those measures to prevent default. >> that's a nonstarter for the democrats? >> yeah, well, anyone who is for that is for dramatically increasing the risk that next time around the united states defaults. with all the negative consequences on millions of americans. and on the entire american and world economy. so that is absolutely a nonstarter. >> okay. this just in. fitch rating service has maintained its aaa rating for the united states, but places it on negative watch, citing the prolonged congressional negotiations over a hike to the borrowing limit. this is getting very serious. this is exactly what harry reid was talking about earlier today. will that news -- is there any news that will shake the tea party to reality? >> well, unfortunately, ed, we have been hearing from those tea party republicans over the last weeks, and they have been very

open about it. they actually think going into default is a good idea, and they have this theory, as you know, that somehow it will be okay, because the united states will be able to pay our debts to the chinese government and to all the bond holders. of course, that would be at the expense of all the folks on social security. all the folks who rely on medicare. our troops in the field. so republicans continue to push this notion that somehow it would be okay, even though it would be terrible not only for all those americans, but it would immediately undermine the credit rating of the united states. as you're hearing, just in anticipation of the possibility of going over the cliff. imagine if we actually did. so the damage is already being done. that should be very clear to people. >> and so tonight, we can expect a very tough conversation amongst democrats when it comes to the treasury and the power of the president to take extraordinary measures. this is the big sticking point

at this hour for the democrats. that's what i get from chris van hollen, correct? >> that's right. our view is this is a prescription for default. >> okay. >> and keeping the government shut. >> okay, so quickly, what are the chances of boehner bringing up the senate bill if that passes? >> well, of course, that's always been the question. whether the speaker will finally stand up to the tea party caucus and exert some real leadership. and at the end of the day, that's what's going to have to happen, in order to prevent the default. because as we have been saying, there are a lot of members in his caucus who have said they want to see that happen. so he needs to stand up to them, make it very clear the dangers for the country. and as i say, step up. because so far, his sort of approach has been feeding the beast, thinking that, you know, maybe at some point they'll be satisfied. all they get is hungrier and bigger. >> okay. thank you, congressman chris van hollen. nancy pelosi -- i thought i had that. i guess i don't. let's bring in senator sherrod

brown of ohio. i appreciate it, congressman, for joining us tonight. senator, what's the latest out of the senate at this hour? >> when america woke up this morning, they saw harry reid and mitch mcconnell, the leaders of the democratic and republican caucus conference in the senate come together on an agreement. and it looks -- they were very close to that agreement. john boehner then let it be known that he wasn't happy with it, and those negotiations, while they're still -- still in the works, but it's delayed it a bit. we're still hopeful that senator mcconnell, senator reid, it come together, we can vote on something tonight or tomorrow morning, get it to the house. but ultimately, it rests with speaker boehner. he's got to decide, as congressm congressman van hollen said, he's got to decide is he peeker of the far right republican right wing or speaker of the united states of america? >> mitch mcconnell stalled

today. can you trust the guy? here all of a sudden boehner comes up with a proposal, and then mcconnell takes a step back from all of this when he was working so good with harry reid. is mcconnell still stalling in talks with reid? >> well, i don't know if he's stalling. i hope it's only a hiccup, it's only a bit of a delay when the clock is ticking on something so very, very important to our economic future and our reputation as a nation. i am still hopeful that mcconnell does the right thing here. i know he's faced with a difficult tea party primary in kentucky. we know what that makes politicians do sometimes, how fearful some can be. but i'm -- i believe that in the end mcconnell will do the right thing, work this out with reid, send it to the house. and it's up to john boehner to show some leadership. >> okay. so is it 50/50 on default, in your opinion? where are we? do you think boehner is going to

move to protect the country's credit? nancy pelosi says she believes new legislation put forth by house republicans is speaker boehner giving republicans one last chance to resist, which pelosi says is unfortunate, because time is ticking. your reaction to that. >> yeah, i -- leader pelosi is right. i have been on the phone a lot this week, talking to business people in ohio, most of them republicans. but leaders of various kinds of businesses from banks to running research institutions, to entrepreneurs to all sort of businesses. and they're pretty scared, but they're -- they're -- they're beginning, i think, to put a lot of pressure on john boehner, to do the right thing. and -- i mean, this is -- this may be his speakership on the line. but this is the country's economy on the line and the country's reputation on the line. >> it does -- senator, it doesn't sound like whatever deal mcconnell and reid come up with is going to be a problem for a yes vote. that it will override the

stupidity of ted cruz getting in the way again. >> i think if mcconnell and reid come up with something and i think they're close, they'll get overwhelming support. >> okay. >> if not unanimous from democrats it, close to it. and a lot of republicans. so we'll have an overwhelming vote in the senate. and boehner has got decide, does he want to do the right thing or playing games. chris van hollen a minute ago said they really do buy into this prioritization. you pay off some of the chinese bond holders in wall street and a few pension funds and you may delay social security a little bit, but we'll get through this. no, this is a high-risk, terrible idea in lurching from manufactured crisis, one to another, is terrible for our country. that's why the president and the house democrats have stuck together on this. >> senator sherrod brown, great to have you with us. going to be an eventful night, thank you so much. >> remember to answer tonight's question at the bottom of your screen, share your thoughts on twitter. i think we're going to default.

i think the tea partiers have still got boehner by the jugular. takes character to break one of those. we'll have more on the breaking news from capitol hill, coming up next. plus, the gop is sending in the clones. pay lynn blueprint of a candidate could be coming to your state. as your life changes, fidelity is there for your personal economy, helping you readjust along the way, refocus as careers change and kids head off to college, and revisit your investments as retirement gets closer. wherever you are today, fidelity's guidance can help you

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help the gulf when we made recover and learn the gulf, bp from what happened so we could be a better, safer energy company. i can tell you - safety is at the heart of everything we do. we've added cutting-edge technology, like a new deepwater well cap and a state-of-the-art monitoring center, where experts watch over all drilling activity twenty-four-seven. and we're sharing what we've learned, so we can all produce energy more safely. our commitment has never been stronger. time now for the trenders in the social media world, this is where you can find us, facebook, twitter and on our blog at ed.msnbc.com. and this is where you can find me on the radio. sirius xm, channel 127, noon to 3:00. i think i've lost ten pounds since that picture. all right. "the ed show" social media nation has decided and we are reporting. here are today's top trenders,

voted on by you. ♪ hail to the redskins the number-three trender. personal foul. >> the nfl franchise that represents the nation's capital has maintained its name. ask yourself what the equivalent would be if directed to toward african-americans, hispanics, asians. it's an insult, a slur. >> glenn beck is seeing red over the redskins' debate. >> what about whites? i mean, can we at least be thrown in as people of a race? >> bob costas is trying to make us hate each other even more. where does that arrogance come from? that arrogance came from manifest destiny. it came from the government. >> you're crazy, man. >> the number-two trender. pawn stars. >> we think it's atrocious that our military is being used as political pawns in a political game. people are being used as pawns.

>> palin pushes the tea party agenda at the world war ii memorial. >> commander in chief, the president today, he could be here today, standing up and saying, yes, we will tear down these barricades. the shutdown priorities reflect that lack of respect. really, they reflect a lack of valor, coming from our commander in chief. and the good guys are those who want their country back. >> and today's top trender, jersey fresh. >> where is he from? where does he live? >> long gan went to a home. the booker campaign says their candidate has lived in for seven years where he claimed it wasn't booker's home. he based the charge on a video by a prominent conspiracy film maker. >> the garden state tea partier hopes to go from house hunter to u.s. senator. >> and i'm going to join those group of conservatives that are going to stand for

constitutional rights, limited government, and against obama care. >>l >>lonegan is trailing booker by ten points. >> the conservative republican takeover of the u.s. senate. ♪ >> i'm joined tonight by senator robert menendez of new jersey. senator, lots to talk about. let's start with new jersey politics. i mean, if you listen to the tape and see this man's presentation, you think that steve lonegan is the ted cruz of the north. how dangerous is his thought process for what we need to accomplish in this country? >> well, we don't need another -- another senator of that thinking. look, i think lonegan is running for rush limbaugh's job, not the late senator lautenberg's job. and he is totally out of the mainstream of new jersey thinking. this is the ultimate tea

partier. someone who doesn't believe in the federal government's role in creating opportunity and education. in medicare. in all of those essential things that in america we have come to understand can create opportunity for average citizens and help them fulfill their hopes and dreams and as remember dissipations. >> are you surprised he has closed the gap on cory booker to ten points? >> well, i mean, you know, there are a variety of polls out there, many of them have higher double digits than those. the reality is, this is a very unique election in new jersey history. i've been involved in new jersey a long time. we have a special election in the middle of a week. we never had a wednesday election. and a few weeks before, all of the state house races, including the governor's race. so this is a very unique election. the bottom line is, i'm sure cory booker is going to win. he's going to win by double digits. >> senator, you bring an interesting perspective to this, because you spent a number of years over on the house side. i think you've got a good insight, certainly, of what is going on in this 11th hour

before we hit default. i mean, i think we're headed for default. why would i he be wrong in my thinking. your thoughts. >> well, ed, i certainly hope not. and as a member of not only just the finance committee, but the senate foreign relations chairman, i can tell you, globally, this is rattling marketplaces across the globe. today china put out an editorial. this is an example of why we have to deamericanize the world. you know, mexico's consequences of our neighbor to the south, rattling, based upon what we're doing here. and this is true, you know, across the corners of the globe. and so it's almost unthinkable, except that here 30-some odd hours before default, you have republicans in the house playing with fire. we had -- i'm shocked and stunned at the -- you know, betrayal of what was going to be

a bipartisan deal here in the senate by speaker boehner. and i see that heritage action just put out a tweet that said vote against the proposal he's going to bring to the house floor, which is probably nephew goi never going to pass in the senate. so with 30 some odd hours away, i can understand why you think we may default. i think it would be terrible for our country and have dire consequences. >> you think the tea party is going to hold the line tonight. there is going to be enough radicals over there that will say no to boehner, despite what the senate does. there's been some progress over there in working in good faith. but, of course, this afternoon mitch mcconnell said, hold on a second, harry reid, let's see what john boehner has got. what he has got is a day of capitulation. but now you're telling us the heritage foundation is saying to the tea party, don't vote for what boehner is going to put out there. we're still right where we were 24 hours ago, if that's the

case, senator. >> yeah. we are. except that if -- ultimately, the tea partiers torpedo pa boehner's effort, then that should liberate mitch mcconnell to finalize the deal he had with harry reid, pass it in the senate. send it over to the house and boehner has got to say, here's hour last chance before default. and i think the consequences to the country are enormous. i hope he realizes the consequences they've already done to their party. but more importantly, to the country. it's already costing us more money, just on the speculation of default. and our standing in the world. it's not acceptable. >> senator robert menendez, great to have you with us tonight, sir. i appreciate your time. thank you. up next, ted cruz holds an underground meeting. but the secret is out. now. and later, a right wing pastor lands in tonight's pretenders for his attack against me and mischaracterization of a conversation we had? but next, i'm taking your

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go national. go like a pro. welcome back to "the ed show." we love this segment, love hearing from our viewers and our ask ed live segment. our first question comes from steve wallace. he wants to know, do you think this country is heading for another recession or great depression if we default? i know that the economy is going to take a real hit. you're going to see corporate belt tightening like we've never seen before. you're going to see a lot of nervous people, a lot of nervous bankers. money is going to get tight, interest rates are probably going to go just shy of double digits. unemployment is going to go up. it's going to be real economic hardship, all of the progress that we have made in recent years clearly is going to be wiped out. and who can judge exactly what the international reaction is going to be if we're nothing but a deadbeat nation. and it's probably her see for me to talk about this, but i'm going to do it anyway.

i'm also a radio talker, and these right wing talkers across america saying, yeah, default, it doesn't matter, what the hell do they think is going to happen to the advertising market? i think it's going to be devastating for many talkers in the electronic media if we go down this road. our next question is from darlene hemmingson. she wants to know, do the republicans really think america is dumb enough to believe they aren't at fault here? uh, yes. again, they are i'd logically driven, they look at the big generational picture. they want a tea party america. and they're stupid enough to bring us one. stick around. rapid response panel coming up next. i'm melissa rehberger with your market wrap. the dow lost 133 points, the s&p down 12 and the nasdaq 21. the pitch ratings put the u.s.

aaa credit rating on watch negative, meaning a potential for a downgrade due to the debt ceiling impasse. the treasury says this shows how urgent it is for congress to act. apple stock is up over news the company hired burberry ceo to take over retail sales. and coca-cola reported their third quarter earnings are up nearly 6%. that is up for cnbc business, first worldwide. just like yours. huh. [ male announcer ] and roasted white meat chicken. just like yours. [ male announcer ] you'll think it's homemade. i love this show. [ male announcer ] try campbell's homestyle soup.

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so-called secret meeting in the basement of a capitol hill watering hole, tortilla coast, late monday night. that's right, cruz probably discussed the fate of our nation over some tex mex with louie gohmert and congressman steve king. they have would have gotten away with the whole secret part of it if they weren't spotted by their own majority whip, kevin mccarthy. it wasn't immediately clear what the group actually discussed and whether it would have an effect on the chances of a deal. but the fact that they met with cruz at all i think speaks volumes. joining me tonight, rapid response panel, syndicated columni columnist, connie schultz and ej dionne of "the washington post." great to have you both with us. i don't think this was a meeting of capitulation. i think this was a meeting, okay, what are we gonna do now, to put president obama in the corner. what are we gonna do now to

tarnish him. and i think ted cruz probably said look, i'm going to do everything i can to stop it in the senate i want to know if you guys are going to back me up. how strong are you in the house. connie, what do you make of this meeting. what does it mean, if anything? >> i think you don't have a secret meeting in a basements in you're afraid the wall is not going to hold. and you certainly don't try to do it without -- without the notice of leadership, unless you're afraid you're not going to be able to carry this through. >> ej, your thoughts. for a senator to meet with 15 or 20 top conservatives in the house, to round them up, what do you make of it? >> it sounds like an old robert loveland novel "the tortilla coast arrangement." and i think the first thing is, it's very foolish to think you can have a secret meeting in one of the few restaurants right near the capitol on capitol hill. and secondly, i think it's clear, and as you said earlier in the show, these tea party folks just are going to vote no, no, no and no. which is why it's still astonishing to me that speaker

boehner didn't finally say, all right, this is over. there's a deal being done in the senate, you know, mitch mcconnell is hardly going to agree to some ultra leftist legislation. why he couldn't move instead of putting us through another day of this is crazy. >> i mean, if speaker boehner brings something to the floor that is not advantageous to the ideology of the tea partiers, aren't they going to complain that boehner is actually stabbing them in the back and putting them in that position in the first place? >> i don't really care what they're going to complain. i want speaker boehner to actually be a leader. it's doubly embarrassing for me because he comes from my great state of ohio. i think he's going to have to make a decision. staying with senator mcconnell, they're either going cave to the far right extremists in their party or lead. those are the two options. >> how does his obstruction play in the buckeye state right now? he would not bring the continuing resolution to the floor for a clean vote. he seems to be obstinate

throughout. how is this playing in ohio? >> everywhere i go -- i'm in the city of cleveland now. and everywhere i go around the state, i'm asking people what they think. when i'm at the airport, i'm talking to people and the thing that troubles me most is the far right and speaker boehner are willing to cultivate a climate of fear in this country. it's not rage in so many people as fear. we want to believe -- even if we disagree with our leaders, we want to believe they put their country first. and that's what concerns me as i'm listening to people now, is the fear in their own voices, what's going to happen to their lives. you know what's going to happen to interest rates. look, we always pay our bills. it's inherently american about us. that's the thing we always believed. remember the bonds, your grandma bought? i had bonds when i graduated from high school my father had gotten me. you believed that america came through, that america paid its bills. and this is scarying people. and i can't imagine how the far right right now is strategizing any kind of successful exit for themselves on this. because they've got people really upset right now in this state. >> yeah.

ej, if ted cruz filibusters -- he and the tea party, i think, in many respects will be really responsible for a self-inflicted worldwide economic crisis. i mean, if he obstructs anymore, do they totally own it? all -- no questions asked? >> i think they own it already, and this is just going to make it worse. and, by the way, amen to the great connie schultz for what she said about america is a country that pays its debts. they are in deep trouble. we've talked about their polling numbers before. and if they actually take steps that weaken our credit rating, that lead -- maybe even not a default, but to a lowering of our credit rating, those numbers are going to crater even more. i find it hard to understand why they couldn't look at what was going on and say, okay, we pushed this far enough. and i am still hoping that mcconnell, if this thing fails in the house, he'll go back and say, all right, let's do this

deal, and boehner will finally feel he has to put it on the floor in the national interest. >> you know, we just heard from senator robert menendez and he brought it up, because it happened since we have been on the air here at the top of the hour, that the influential outside right wing special interest group, the heritage action, is now connecting with members of congress and telling them to vote no on the plan. the leadership is going to bring to the floor tonight. i mean, to me that tells me that cruz and these republicans in a closed meeting last night, a secret meeting, were saying exactly what the heritage foundation -- what the heritage action group is doing right now. i mean, connie, how else could we read that? >> that's exactly right. and i have one question for cruz and his colleagues. who do you answer to? do you answer to the people you represent? do you represent your government? do you represent the people of america? or do you -- are you going to represent these far right bullies? and let's be clear on this. this is bullying. and we know how most americans

feel about that. >> one good thing, ed, if this goes down tonight, is i think that totally frees up mcconnell to go right back and say the house can't do this, we're going to make a deal in the senate. and just jam it into the house. >> well, that gives the republican senators some cover when they go home. they can say we know washington has got problems, but it's not my fault. i mean, heck, i voted to make sure -- the republican senator will say, i voted to keep the government open and also raise the debt ceiling. the problem is over in the house. i mean, they're little for political cover. i'm not saying that it's not the right thing to do. but the fact is that there's a number of different benefits here for mcconnell and his caucus if they go along with harry reid at this hour. >> i agree. >> and your thoughts. >> no, i think that's right. i think mcconnell made a political judgment, as i was hoping john boehner would. that this thing is costing them and costing them and costing them. and it just wasn't worth pushing more. we've got plenty of time to argue about budgets after we get

over this crisis. and that's what we should be arguing about. >> and finally, connie, there's been a lot of conversation everywhere that boehner is just doing all this to protect his speakership. i'd like a good ohio take on that. >> i don't know what kind of speakership he thinks he's got, if this is what he's got to do to protect it. i can't imagine he enjoys his job anymore. in fact, i would be very surprised if he wanted to keep it. >> connie schultz, ej dionne, great to have you with us on "the ed show." thank you so much. >> thank you, ed. we'll have much more on these very fluid negotiations at the white house. keep it right here on msnbc and "the ed show." ll. ll. to treat my low testosterone, my doctor and i went with axiron, the only underarm low t treatment. axiron can restore t levels to normal in about 2 weeks in most men. axiron is not for use in women or anyone younger than 18 or men with prostate or breast cancer. women, especially those who are or who may become pregnant and children should avoid contact where axiron is applied

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>> is it the moral position of a christian to take health care away from people? because that's what your party wants to do, sir. >> well, the moral case is that you're living on fairy dust and empty promises, because that hasn't happened yet. >> it hasn't been implemented completely, sir. it starts on october 1st, where people can sign up for the exchanges. >> if i may -- >> all of a sudden -- all of a sudden he admits, it hasn't happened yet. >> well, the chaplain cites figures on obama care, which has not been fully implemented. in a new op-ed, chaps is coming after yours truly. me? saying that he won the debate on health care and morality? >> i went into the lion's den on msnbc, debated ed schultz on obama care. ted cruz is right, michele bachmann is right. mr. ed schultz, i have just proved that maybe you're the one by calling me a liar, you are now bearing false witness against your neighbor. >> oh, dr. chaps, come on now.

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welcome back to "the ed show."

we're following breaking news for the folks who take a shower after work. now, late-breaking news at this hour. when we say in this business just moments ago, this is the case. the house rules committee has postponed the new house debt limit deal, quote, subject to the call of the chair. the bill was postponed right after the heritage action committee told congressional members to vote no on the plan. this is absolutely stunning. so what has happened here is that the house rules committee is saying we're not going to vote on this thing tonight. and the heritage action funds has really grabbed the tea partiers and emboldened them by saying vote no on this. so it's really up in the air right now as to how this is all going to unfold. for more let's turn to congressman joseph crowley of new york who is on the democratic leadership team. congressman, this is the latest. just moments ago. what do you make of it? what does it mean? >> thanks, ed.

great to be back with you. what it really means, i think americans have more questions as to who is actually running the republican house of representatives tonight. >> will there be a vote tonight? >> there's still a chance, but clearly this has been a setback once again for the republican caucus. and so it remains to be seen whether rules will be called back in. we could have a vote later tonight. >> okay. what does it mean when it says subject to the call of the chair? this means, as i understand it, this means they have to decide whether they're going to have a vote or not. >> correct. it means whether or not the speaker will call for a bill to go through the rules committee and make its way to the floor tonight. really it's still in the republican speaker's, his power to determine when that bill will come to the floor or not. >> what do you make of the heritage action group telling members to vote no on it? >> it's remarkable. i think it really demonstrates

in respect the civil war that's taking place in the republican caucus. from everything they add to the bill to sweeten it to get more to vote for it. gives them reason not to vote for it as well. other factions within the caucus. so i think mr. boehner has a hard time getting anything through in the house. i think unless we go back to what the senate is working on, anything we do in the house, absent what the senator is talking about doing is a vote really to miss the -- >> what we're seeing happen in america right now i think is economic terrorism. we all know exactly what the heck is going to happen if we default. interest rates are going to go nuts. belt tightening is going to take place. unemployment's going to go up. money is going to be hard to get. it's going to shrink our economy. we will lose all we have gained in the last 43 months. this is economic terrorism as i call it. it seems to be nothing more than a legislative coup d'etat.

>> you're talking quite frankly about the government aspect of this. for individuals it means high e interest rates for the mortgages and student loans. putting us back into a recession and maybe depression. and it's irresponsible. it's irresponsible and reckless. >> so the heritage action and hard right wingers know what's going to be put on the floor tonight or soon will have a good chance of passing. >> i think that's the assumption. >> so why do republicans -- you know, this is a nut house. no offense. i know you're a good guy and everything else. i'm sorry you have to work there. by the moment, these people change. but one thing has not changed.

they have been very consistent on wanting to take down this president. tell us what was the demeanor of the president today in the meeting you had with him? >> the president was very resolute. i think he believes in the stances that he has taken. that his government, our government will not be blackmailed by individuals who are simply looking for a political gain. you don't play with the full faith and confidence of the united states and you don't shut down the government of the united states of america for gainsmanship and pure politics. and that's unfortunately what they've been doing. >> who do you think is more powerful? or are we going to find out tonight? the heritage action or speaker boehner? >> quite frankly at this point it's a crap shoot. it's anyone's guess what will happen tonight. what i can tell you is unless something is done, our government will continue to be

shut down. if our debts go unpaid, forget about fringe. forget about what we're hearing so far. this will be catastrophic. >> what do you make of finch tonight putting us on the negative watch what they call it for aaa rating. >> it is certainly something we expected, i think. but really why? why is this happening? why are we doing this to ourselves? for what -- what is the end goal? what do they want? the reality is republicans don't know what they want because it keeps changing. first they want to undo the affordable care act. then it's about the budget. now it's about something else. every day it's something different they're trying to negotiate on. in the end, what we have to do is open up government, pay our debts, and we could talk about the other issues afterwards. >> tonight if it doesn't work in the house, we're headed for default, i would say. i think the heritage action groups speak volumes where they've been