thanks for disrupting your afternoon. i'm karen finney. 88 days until the next government shutdown. >> there are no winners here. >> that was a remarkable victory. >> in the old days we'd strip them naked and make them leave town. >> of their entire list, they're going to get nothing. >> i say it's president obama, his arrogance fueled the shutdown. >> can you make sense of the week that just was? >> no, i can't. nobody can. >> thank god it's over. >> over? did you say over? >> you would do it again? >> i would do anything and i will continue to do anything i can to stop the train wreck that is obama care. >> nothing is over until we

decide it is. >> those that can't stand strong to defend the republic, the constitution, heck yeah. they have to be primaried. otherwise we're going down. >> what i intend to do is to continue standing with the american people. >> this is really just the end of the beginning. that is fight that's going to continue. >> isn't this going to happen all over again in a few months? >> no. ♪ how do you like me now all right. the government is open. we just barely avoided defaults on the nation's debt and the gop forced to accept that the affordable care act is the law of the land. okay. at least until 88 days from now and that's when cruz and the cuckoo caucus can have the opportunity to shut down the government and president obama tried to get back to the business of running the country.

>> we still need to pass a law to fix our broken immigration system. we need to pass a farm bill. and with the shutdown behind us, and budget committees forming, we now have an opportunity to focus on a sensible budget that is responsible, that is fair and that helps hard working people all across this country. >> immigration reform, a farm bill and federal budget with the midterm elections around the corner. are you ready for round two? guess what. the battle is far from over. the new budget committee has until december 13th to work out a $90 billion difference between the senate budget that was passed under the leadership of patty murray and the paul ryan austerity first budget that passed in the house and just -- and like the fight we just had over obama care, it's going to feel once again like we're relitigating the 2012 election. as the committee tried to find common ground between two very

different visions. we know we'll hear from paul ryan about rethinking the role of government in our lives, aka cuts to medicare, medicaid and snap that help people in need get back on their feet. we'll hear about the makers and the takers. mitt romney's entitlement society and don't forget the number one threat to america's democracy, the national debt. in fact, if you've been listening to the republicans lately, it feels like 2012 deja vu all over again. >> the number one problem we face is our debt. we have to do something about our debt. >> we have got to cut the deficit and put america on track to a balanced budget. >> the idea that we should continue to spend money that we don't have and give the bill to our kids and grand kids would be wrong. >> i think it's frankly not moral for my generation to keep spending massively more than we take in knowing the burdens are passed on to the next generation. >> oh, so get ready to remind paul ryan, ted cruz and the rest of the cuckoo caucus that it's

october 2013. not 2012. a majority of americans agreed that government does have a role to play in our lives and that in the most fundamental american valley and everyone has an opportunity to improve their lives and a fair shot. get over it already, guys. joining me now, jared bernstein, senior fellow at the center on budget and policy priorities and maria teresa khumar. thank you for joining me. >> you're welcome. >> starting with you, jared, we are coming up to the next round and, again, we are going to hear the same rhetoric from the conservatives. deficit reduction and, of course, yet again, they will not take into account the fact that where we are now in 2013 is not where we were in 2009. the president actually has made substantial progress on deficit reduction. he had -- health care costs are going down. we can have a different kind of conversation than the paul ryan budget could portend but, no.

we'll hear the same rhetoric it seems. >> yeah. i agree with everything you just said except for health care costs are rising more slowly and not going down. we are generating savings there. look. when we're having this argument on this turf it is on conservative or republican turf. in the following sense. these guys love to govern by crisis so first it was the crisis of obama care. that was a loser for them. guess what? now it's back to the crisis of debt and deficits and as you yourself suggested the budget deficit down from 10% in 2009 to something like 3% or 4% now and ticking down. but as long as they're creating this crisis of deficits and debt now, and very importacorrelatio that, tax increases are off the table; the only way to achieve deficit savings is more spending cuts. >> right. >> be aware we have cut $2.5

trillion so far on the spending side. i'm sorry, reduction already. 70% 0 of that has been spending cuts already so this really is their shrink government turf. exactly as you suggested. >> you know, on the one hand, we finally got an agreement that we can go to conference committee and try to look at the two budgets and have a budget and stop going from continuing resolution to continuing resolution. and yet, the deadlines, the short-term deadlines and the deal cut this week, doesn't that give republicans a bit of leverage? >> actually, i think the fact that the government was shut down for 60 days, they have lost the narrative that people don't need government. they lost the narrative that people all of a sudden don't need s.n.a.p. or medicare or medicaid. they don't need social security. now the american people realize what happens when government completely shuts down and impacts them. not a few weeks but almost the next day and so as a result while in 2012, yes, definitely

resonated that the idea of spending too much with a majority of american people. when they realize what the government was spending and how they're dpebd ent on that to make sure they're coming -- they themselves coming out of economic recovery. the republicans have very little leverage with a case for why we need to start cutting the debt at this point. >> jared, to that point, it mean, it seems like you make the point that we're fighting this on the republicans sort of talking points. how do we reframe the conversation, particularly when we know that they are going for entitlements? they want to cut social security, medicare, medicaid. that is the holy grail to them and they will, you know, not let facts get in the way of, you know, efforts to try to make those cuts. so what are the options that we have on that? >> well, i think the key word is options. in other words, instead of focusing on having an argument about what they want to cut and how we want to cut less of it, we should really be talking about the part of the big

picture that they're very conspicuously ignoring and have been doing so for a long time and that's this little matter of the economy. >> how about that? jobs. >> go along with that. >> remember that? it's still out there. the unemployment rate is still highly elevated. growth is still slow and half a percent slower now because of the shutdown and what i would like to hear is a couple of politicians stand up and say, okay, we have a commission to talk about the budget. this budget conference. great. we should do that. i'm glad they're talking to each other. we need the same thing on the unemployment rate, on jobs, on poverty, on inequality, immobility. have folks stand up and say here's a set of aideas to address that set of problems. they would have a big audience. >> looking at public opinion on entitlement reform, people care about the programs like social security. people now after the shutdown

recognize, hey, government maybe isn't such a bad thing and does some good things and i think the challenge here, though, going into this is you have senator reid basically saying he, you know, you got to get revenue on the table. republicans are saying, no way. you have president obama who has said in the past he's willing to look at entitlement reform and made democrats on the hill very nervous. are democrats able to stay unified with protecting the entitlements? >> i think the president won a lot with the democratic base because he was able to -- he didn't fold in the last negotiations and as a result i think that they're going to give him some leeway to look at entitlement reform. we need some sort of reform because it's currently not sustainable without switches and the progressive base of the democratic party because the president was able to stand so firm recently they'll be open to his conversations and see where he goes. >> i hope that you're right because i feel like it's just so

obvious that, you know, when you listen to the rhetoric, here we go again. you know? literally it does to me sound like 2012 all over again. two other agenda items of the president, immigration. when's interesting to me on immigration reform, some are ju suggesting to help some republicans in some house place races and don't seem to look at the da the and math and numbers but that's what they show and then you have got the business community which, you know, was sort of at odds with tea party folks in the last round actually saying, yes, we need immigration reform. it is good for business. >> right. well, this is actually -- if the republican party can take a step back and realize that obama's trying to save them from themselves in this case, if the republican party was able to go forward and say we'll pass comprehensive immigration reform they would do three things. inject into the economy with money. two, address national security and then open themselves up to

an incredibly increasingly important base which is the latino vote and not just in california and florida but texas, north carolina, south carolina, arizona. >> right. >> by doing that, passing comprehensive immigration reform, they're injecting themselves with a stronger economy and clean house and say we want this demographic now. >> let me just say that that was just a very smart and rational analysis -- >> i was going to say you're making far too much sense. are you kidding me? >> smart and rational analysis doesn't exactly work on the key people we are talking about. so i'm probably more skeptical than maria vis-a-vis immigration reform but agree with the points. i would say the farm bill, it does have to get passed. and so, the argument here is less about helping these, you know, this kind of subsidies to farmers. that's kind of embedded in the process. it's more an issue of food

stamps or s.n.a.p. as it's called. >> to that point, i feel like talking fiscal policy or economics, when we are talking about the farm bill an you look at, okay, are we were talking about farmers, will we keep that tied to helping low income people with s.n.a.p. and again i think it's going to drill down to makers versus takers kind of language. >> well, look. interestingly, the reason the farm bill is a slam dunk is because basically it's sort of combined rural and urban constituencies. taking it apart, you kind of lose that. of course, politics are all up in the air relative to these kinds of supposed slam dunks in the past. let's remember, the house has not passed one appropriations bill for a really long time. >> right. all right. thanks for your time. thank you, karen. >> get ready for the battle, guys. all right. next, bowling? movie nights? beer summit? can they find a way to live together in peace and harmony? i'm going to ask chris matthews

when we come back. >> i should mention that due to the recent government shutdown none of the food tonight was inspected. in fact, that salmon appetizer wasn't smoked. it just swam too close to an oak brothers factory. "stubborn love" by the lumineers did you get my email? i did. so what did you think of the house? did you see the school ratings? oh, you're right. hey babe, i got to go. bye daddy! have a good day at school, ok?

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when we disagree, we don't have to suggest that the other side doesn't love this country or free enterprise. if we disagree on something, we can move on and focus on the things we agree on. and get some stuff done. >> president obama made an impassioned plea to congress

this week ft . it's time to find a way to work together but in a capital scorched by shutdown, how will republicans find common ground with the president when many won't admit he was born in this country? how do they negotiate when the speaker's caucus pledges all allegiance to a tea party senator? it wasn't so long ago a president and speaker of opposed parties joined together to do big things for the country, historic achievements this changed people's lives. while working together in the 1980s, republican president ronald reagan and democratic speak eer tip o'neill ended the cold war and while the political rivalry often hard fought the relationship had a quality that's utterly lacking today in washington. trust. my colleague chris matthews had a front row seat to the action as speaker o'neill's top aide on capitol hill and chronicled the working relationship of these in

a new book. he's also, of course, the host of "hard ball" here on msnbc. welcome, chris. it's a joy to have you. >> thank you. i wore my professor's costume today. >> i appreciate it. >> professors look on saturday. >> okay. so chris, you know, i want to start with either this idea of the times because, you know, back then, i mean, those two men as you talk about, they were able to have a kind of relationship if it's even possible today because there's such a lack of trust on both sides. >> well, it wasn't because they agreed. karen, they totally disagree. that's why i wrote the book because reagan was the leader of the modern conservative movement and tip was as liberal as you can imagine being. he cared about the poor people, the kid that couldn't afford to go to college or the old. he believed in government. reagan says government is not the solution but the problem. this is 180 stuff and why it's

interesting that as you said they were able to find not common ground. but compromise. you give me this. i'll give you that. they did that on all the issues you mentioned. >> chris, the thing is strikes me to be able to do that you can have to some degree of trust with the person you're negotiating with and strikes me we have seen so little of that from the two sides in washington these days. >> yeah. like, you know, you watch what i watch every day. say tuesday afternoon. boehner out of the white house. he's on the phone with the chief of staff. chief of staff says you can't sell what you just agreed to. eric cantor saying, speaker, why did you do that? we know that within an hour. >> right. >> what did he say? the other day i said -- the speaker said something i was overrun. >> overrun, yeah. >> why do we know what he said to the president? you know i support obama and the issues, most of them, why would someone give away the little private conversation? >> right. >> i mean, there ought to be

some trust and confidence to call up reagan called tip in the afternoon and say, when's your watch say? 3:00? change it to 6:00. you've said we're friends after 6:00 and now we can talk. i think it's about being able to private -- nobody wants to hear this. private conversations when you say, you know what? i'm going to push it as far as i can but we'll make a deal the day before. corporate tax reform, there's an area to find agreement on. you mentioned tax reform. they got the top rate down under rae again and o'neill down to 28%. the conservatives and rich people loved it. here's what they did. we're going to make same tax rate for capital gains for people who make money off money as the tax rate for people who earn it through sweat. it's never been like that since. that was a wonderful thing. that meant that rich people didn't just clip coupons and not pay taxes. you have to pay smuchings tas m

plumber or the cab driver. that's a compromise. >> seems like the group that's formed and compromise and leading the way is the women. we hear about -- >> you're right. >> women smenators and susan collins. >> you tell me. my wife tells me that all the time. who's john wayne in the room? as women they have a different approach. >> as the women senators have said going to dinner sometimes they need to get away from the testosterone and then because they're more collaborative. like you have said, it's not necessarily that you agree on everything but you try to say, okay, well i can do this if you can do that and figure out how to come to a deal and i think that art of the deal seems to be so much of what we're -- is lacking and what tip and the giper had. >> i think there's nothing -- you're much younger than me. don't giggle. it's a happy fact. >> it is a happy fact. >> okay. let's go. you know what i think? i i this the fact that both the guys were in the 70s, they knew that was the last act.

i thought about this so long. and they knew that there's no more bs, no more speeches, no more positioning. if they didn't get it done and end up with something besides an argument and fix social security, didn't make the tax system fair and end the cold war and the fight in northern ireland, they would have blown it and no comeback later. today there's a sense of kick it down the road. when's the most common phrase in politics today? kick the can down the road. to when will they deal? as long as you and i live, we'll have divided government. we won't have a one-party state like in some countries. we won't or one-party -- i mean, ted cruz can talk all he wants. he's never 60% of the country. >> right. >> it's always about 45-45 with people in the middle making up their minds. >> someone has to tell ted cruz that. >> he thinks he's a -- raise a roman candle. he's hot. they're listening to him. he will be hot for a while. people of his political type don't tend to last a long time.

i don't think so. >> you know, chris, part of what i think we're seeing -- you have talked about this a lot very eloquently. this era of undermining and delegitimizing president obama. even in the clinton administration, right, there were fights and disagreements and there was some ugly stuff that went on but not the level like i think we're seeing with the president. >> the birthers are frightening because i don't know whether they believe it themselves but they're pandering the people who do, have a problem with a guy of mixed background, part immigrant with a parent of africa and clearly born in this country by all the fact that is we know and even not, by the definition we accept of natural born, his mother was american and he's american and even if the lies were true. there's nothing about ethnicity and ideology. say if he's joe brown that grew up in the south and moved to detroit or philadelphia where i

grew up. elected to senate. would they be treated differently abe given a different treatment? some other way of discounting his presidency? that i'm curious about. he has this african name. and they use that. would they have done the same thing to joe brown from america? just say he wasn't really -- he's not really a president. i want to say something positive. we progressives and i'm pretty much a progressive and i have to say this. the good news is what we talk about. 70% of this country practically without any problem changed the history. elected an african-american guy with an interesting background and a beautiful wife and beautiful african-american woman and beautiful family and we have all accepted it. that's the wondrous thing going on and outshadowed by the terrible voice on the hard right and we are a pretty good country, not a country of these people. >> what we see in the obama

family, that's our new normal. i want to ask you one quick other question before i let you go. tom foley, very sad about his passing. wanted to just get your thoughts on him. >> yeah. well, there's a great example. happened to be in my book. i went to him in 1982 ready to beat reagan. he said it was time to raise revenues going too far with cutting taxes and spending in 1981 and came back and said can we cut a deal on raising revenues? my way of writing the speech for tom. he said, will he be tough enough? i went to foley. rae again's wrong on everything but this time he's right. foley said to me, why don't we just say this time he's right instead of whacking him hard before agreeing with him and foley went on national television and wowed the country not saying he's an s.o.b. and this time he's happen to be right. i wanted to say a broken clock

is right twice a day. i wanted to stick it to him. foley was a yeah. he said, no. we are on common ground. let's act that way. unite the country and make up for the excesses and we did it and tip said a star is born and everybody was happy. and we needed a moment like that. we need signings ceremonies. if you won't buy it, look at the signing pictures. they smiled in the ceremonies on social security, tax reform, the northern irish stuff. they could reach agreement. the job of a professional politician to reach agreement. you know? >> chris matthews, thank you so much. >> karen, great show. thank you. no. thank you. >> the book is "tip and the gipper." catch chris matthews every weekday 7:00 p.m. eastern here on msnbc. and when we come back, facts get in the way of a good yarn on fox news and only took three phone calls to unravel it.

we'll explain when we come back. republicans are now whining. democrats are whining. they're all just a bunch of whining babies. the republicans are saying they have nothing out of the deal. that's not true. they got eight years of hillary. that's what we're talking about. when you have diabetes like i do, getting the right nutrition isn't always easy. first, i want a way to help minimize my blood sugar spikes. then, a way to support heart health. ♪ and let's not forget immune support. ♪ but now i have new glucerna advance with three benefits in one. including carbsteady ultra to help minimize blood sugar spikes. it's the best from glucerna. [ male announcer ] new glucerna advance. from the brand doctors recommend most. advancing nutrition for diabetes. from the brand doctors recommend most.

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the state of montana's health exchange saw the segment and called the couples to fact check their stories and guess what? the small business owner who said he and his wife had to stop hiring because of obama care, it's not true. they have four employees and obama care only affects companies with 50 or more. so not a fact. the other two couples complained of rising premiums but when pressed on the phone, they admitted they didn't try to sign up for obama care. the fact checkers from montana ran the numbers and actually found a plan for each couple to save at least 60% off of what they are now paying. we're going to wait and see if fox will correct the facts. ahead, the center of it all. what washington can learn from the rest of america where 51% agree on a lot more than you think. recent in washington, unfortunately, we have seen examples of the wrong kind of leadership. when politicians choose scorched

earth over common ground, when they operate in what i call the evidence-free zone -- we went out and asked people a simple question: how old is the oldest person you've known? we gave people a sticker and had them show us. we learned a lot of us have known someone who's lived well into their 90s. and that's a great thing. but even though we're living longer, one thing that hasn't changed much is the official retirement age. ♪ the question is how do you make sure you have the money you need to enjoy all of these years. ♪

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everyone deserves ooey, gooey, pillsbury cinnamon rolls. make the weekend pop. you pop in the only 3 in 1 detergent that cleans, brightens, and fights stains. just on pac has the stain removal power of 6 caps of the bargain brand. pop in. stand out. well, washington is polarized after weeks of brinksmanship, faux filibusters, shutdown and near default, it turns out that outside of washington there's a lot more that americans agree on than you might think according to a new survey of nbc news and "esquire" magazine. a majority of americans consider themselves in the center and don't fit into traditional definitions of red versus blue. quote, the center is real, passionate and persuadable. it leans democratic but a majority of those in the center

agree with a mix of republican and democratic ideas. now, this group of voters show a majority consensus coming to their views of the country. and on social issues, this majority center overwhelmingly backs issues like paid maternity leave, raising the men mum wage, gay marriage and abortion rights. similarly, recent focus groups of walmart moms across the country also show that while they're unhappy with washington, the idea of compromise isn't such a dirty word anymore. did you hear that, speaker boehner? could the mood of the middle have an impact on the 2014 midterm races next year? joining me are two guests. welcome to you both. >> hi, karen. >> pleasure to be here. >> great. m margey i was fascinated to listen to the conversation with the walmart moms and so interesting how, you know, they're definitely frustrated

with washington. one of my favorite lines was, you know, they're basically doing everything we were taught in kindergarten not to do but they have a lot of faith in the country, in themselves. they're hard working people. they're making tough choices. there's just a fascinating group of women to listen to. >> yeah. it was a great project. neil and i have been working together, studying walmart moms for years and we frequently hear moms talking about all the daily struggles that they have. trying to keep the trains running on time in their family. a higher status or lower socio economic status, they have a variety of worries to make sure that their families are doing okay but thinking of washington, they see washington has having gone off the deep end and need to rely on themselves and families and loved ones to have the kind of live they want and look at washington as a place where now maybe a mom needs to come in and step in and clean

things up because washington is behaving like a bunch of children. they use that kind of language. >> neil, i love that part. i love the part -- there was one group i know talking about they were saying basically we need more women. women will come together and get it done and men are too worried about ego. >> well, you saw that at the end of the focus groups where, you know, one women said we need a tough woman bitch. it's like, whoa. >> whoo. >> you know what's interesting about the groups is these women are relentlessly optimistic in their personal lives in terms of their family and how they're trying to insulate their families from the economy and from everything. you know, negative that's happening. but they're also ruthlessly negative to washington, toward the dysfunction here but what i thought was also interesting and you kind of alluded to it but i think these women are losing faith in the country. that there is a sense that america's on the decline and

that the future really is a square place for them. and i think you saw that in those groups. the dysfunction of washington kind of comes down to their level and it makes them wonder, you know, when's around the corner? doesn't give them a lot of confidence. >> margey, a couple of things that's interesting, one, this idea of wanting to elect people who would come and work together and compromise where possible and get things done. i mean, that seemed like a popular idea instead of what i feel like we heard in 2010 which was, you know, burn it down. >> right. i mean, you have seen this in national polling, too. a majority of democrats wanted democrats to compromise. a majority of republicans wanted to see republicans compromise. and you saw it in the focus groups where moms say, well, just do your job. if you knew what my day was riglike and what i had to do, you wouldn't -- i can't decide today i don't get along with the co-workers and walk out on the job, why do you get to get a half day, get benefits and go on

vacation, those are the exact kinds of words they use. they see this different set of standards that washington holds itself to versus what they have to go through. >> the way they describe washington was in family terms. they describe them as kindergartners or toddlers that can't get along. >> what i thought was interesting after sort of watching the focus groups and then looking at this nbc/"esquire" poll, the center idea comes through very strongly and struck me in terms of party ideology, seems like they don't want to be identified with one label or another. and that they agree with some ideas that democrats or republicans have. >> it is really interesting because we're living now in the most hyper partisan political environment that the country's ever seen. in terms of just the partisanship of americans. and you see it exacerbated here

in washington. but the same point in time, you have a vast middle out there in terms of ideology and issues so the partisanship isn't matching up to the ideology and the issues so while washington is the worst example of partisanship, those americans in the middle of the 50%, you know, kind of seem somewhat lost in this. you know, i think they feel like there's chaos in washington and frustration they can't get anything done. >> right. that's the thing. like, what is the goal? you know, there's fighting in washington and just seems to a lot of moms and voters that the fighting is just -- it has no purpose. it's an end of itself. it's partisan bickering without trying to accomplish something to help people. >> right. i found this all fascinating. i enjoyed listening to the women say, you know, one of the things i care about deeply, voting, staying engaged and sounded like that's something that they were going to stay engained nor 2014

and interesting to see -- i wish we had more time and interesting to see kind of coming up in 2014 if the middle actually has an influence on the outcome of the election and if we get more moderate types or more -- fewer toddlers maybe and more people willing to work together. we'll see. >> karen, these women voted republican in 2010 and for obama in '08 and owe 12 so they're up for grabs for dle 14. >> all right. thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you. next, this is your brain on oreos. the science behind the most addictive item in your home. the factor tip of the day. americans love zombies. why? why? did you know more coffee drinkers

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week. first, an ohio community seems to be in a time warp.fighting t the bus stop out of the community. why? because most of the commuters to stop in the mostly white suburb are minorities. yeah, really. however, after a lawsuit threatened the loss of millions in federal highway dollars, the member of the city council had a change of heart and one griped about her back was against the wall. beaver creek, just a reminder. it's 2013. not 1963. next, the portland trail blazers are living up to their name, the very first nba team to support marriage equality. just this week, oregon became the 20th state to file a lawsuit challenging the same-sex marriage ban. the trail blazers endorsed the suit saying, quote, we do so as believers in individual choice as a fundamental right of all people. there's an addiction sweeping the nation and it is not krystal meth or russian

import. it's oreos. a study finds the cookies just asdy eightyive as cocaine so if you thought you were suffering from an addiction to oreos, you might be. it is not your fault! when we come back, it's a fact. cruz and the cuckoo caucus in congress, they're not listening to the will of the american people and you can't argue with the facts. that's coming up. [ male announcer ] this is claira. to prove to you that aleve is the better choice for her, she's agreed to give it up. that's today? [ male announcer ] we'll be with her all day to see how it goes. [ claira ] after the deliveries, i was okay. now the ciabatta is done and the pain is starting again. more pills? seriously? seriously. [ groans ] all these stops to take more pills can be a pain. can i get my aleve back? ♪ for my pain, i want my aleve. [ male announcer ] look for the easy-open red arthritis cap.

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washington doesn't listen to the american people. it ignores them. >> we're going to continue to fight until we see the will of the people prevail. >> we saw the house of representatives take a courageous stand listening to the american people. >> hmm, now we have heard a lot of rhetoric of ted cruz and the tea partiers how they're standing up for and listening to the american people.

so we wanted to know just exactly who are they listening to? we started with some facts. by the way, it's a fact that more than half of american voters are opposed to defunding obama care. it's also a fact that nearly 9 in 10 voters favor background check legislation, the most basic gun control law senator cruz and conservatives argued against. on immigration reform it is a fact that in the latest gallup poll, 87% said that they would vote for a pathway to citizenship. that idea that conservatives seem to love to hate. but despite these facts, senator cruz told abc he's going to keep up the fight. >> so you would do it again? >> i would do anything and i will continue to do anything i can to stop the train wreck that is obama care and i think our focus should not be on d.c. politics. it should be on the people getting hurt. >> getting hurt? okay. i agree with you but, senator cruz, how did your shutdown help the more than 944,000 texas

women, infants and children who participate in the wic program in july alone? how about the fact that railroad over 4 million texans in the food stamp program each month or the fact of 5.7 million texans without health insurance it's the worst in the country. but who needs health care, right? speaking of health care, cruz made quite a claim this morning to the texas medical association. >> my top priority in office is focused on one thing. and that is economic growth. restoring economic growth because jobs and economic growth, economic growth is ant sedent to solving every other problem we have. >> your shutdown cost our economy $24 billion. and as many as 250,000 jobs. that is moving in the wrong direction. joining me now, msnbc contributor and "the washington post" opinion writer jonathan

capehart. great to see you as always. >> you, too. >> you wrote about this this week. this question of who are they listening to? the tea party folks from red states and looking at red states, a report out this week in the south you see the highest percentage of public school children who are poor and rely on the very programs that they want to cut. awe also see in terms of needs for health care an reliance on those government programs they like to rail against. so, you know, just -- i'm so tired of this rhetoric. who are you listening to? >> they love to say they're listening to the american people but who ted cruz is listening to is a narrow sliver of the electorate that gives him money so in the third quarter of 2013, so from july to september, all the way up to september 30th including the time of senator cruz's big 21-hour talkathon on

the floor of the senate, he raised $1.19 million. it's a lot of money. >> yes. >> imagine the fourth quarter report looks like encompassing the 16 days of the shutdown. >> right. >> for ted cruz and ted cruz's followers, what he is doing is what they want him to do and they're rewarding him with money. >> like you said, it's all about the benjamins. you wrote about this this week. cruz's clearly very much aligned with the heritage foundation and heritage action. so, you know, i feel like really in all these negotiations what did ted cruz and jim demint think? that's where we'll make the deal. how much do you think cruz relies on the help of heritage for fund raising? >> oh sure. look. well, obviously, he will take the money where he can get it. and actually, if you look at it

this way. you've got senator ted cruz on the inside wrecking havoc and you have heritage on the outside wrecking havoc. senator cruz using the rules of the senate and just being in the halls to basically circumvent or subvert whatever speaker boehner was trying to do in terms of averting a shutdown and then heritage action on the outside pressuring members of congress to not vote for pieces of legislation that would have ended the shutdown and so as we saw after the vote what happened? two organizations came out saying that they were going to help primary challenges for senator mitch mcconnell and senator thad cochran and see the narrow band of folks in the house to exert influence over the rest of the republican majority. >> we also learned today that this week senator cruz as you say, using the rules of the senate blocked the fcc chairman

nomination and why? because he didn't like his answer on transparency essentially. he had blocked -- it was the confirmation of tom wheeler from the fcc saying he wanted greater 'shurns from the president's nominee that the agency wouldn't require more funding disclosure for more tv ads. cruz has said that such free speech should be protected. who are we protecting? the people with the money. not the little people. >> right. and so senator cruz is being transparent about it. if he's listening to the american people as he and other conservatives -- >> people in texas. >> people of texas, they wouldn't be doing any of the things that they're doing now. >> jonathan capehart, always great to see you. thank you. >> you, too, karen. >> please don't forget to share your thoughts. you can join us on facebook and

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