this morning. my question, why is chipotle taking on the food industry? plus, the brutality of rape culture marks a town in missouri. and why 12 years of slave may be the most important film of the year. but first, one year since sandy. how response from the storm predicted our recent government shutdown. good morning. i'm melissa harris-perry. in just two days, the anniversary begins for what was the deadliest hurricane to hit the northeast of the united states in 40 years. on october 22nd, 2012, a tropical depression formed over the caribbean and strengthened into tropical storm sandy. the storm first made landfall in jamaica. and by the time superstorm sandy hit new jersey and new york on october 29th, its effects were

devastating for the region, making it the second costliest hurricane in the nation's history. but what was worse than the actual devastation caused by sandy was the fallout that had nothing to do with the storm and everything to do with politics. if you think the recent 16-day shutdown is the first sign that republicans are willing to break all the political rules in order to destroy government, not even close. because the willingness by members of congress to choose not to vote for sandy relief was unprecedented. remember, superstorm sandy made landfall in the u.s. just before the presidential election between president barack obama and former massachusetts governor, mitt romney. but the election did not stop president obama from responding. he put campaign battleground travel on hold to tour the storm-battered coast of new jersey on october 31st. and his immediate reaction was to address the needs of the hurricane victims most in need. and it earned him the admiration

of the republican governor of new jersey, chris christie. and it started an unlikely bromance. >> i was on the phone at midnight again last night with the president, personally. he has expedited the designation of new jersey as a major disaster area. he expedited that, was on the phone with fema at 2:00 a.m. this morning to answer the questions they needed answered, to get that designation. and the president has been outstanding in this. >> "the president has been outstanding in this." so it was a bipartisan lovefest between president obama and governor christie. but there was a presidential election looming. an election that turned in large part on the belief that the gop candidate was an elitist who didn't understand regular people. an election that romney would go on to lose. and yet, republican house members decided to take a stand against storm victims. while the democrat-led senate approved a $60.4 billion

hurricane recovery package, house speaker john boehner initially blocked any house action on sandy aid legislation because of the price tag. because at the same time that the victims of sandy needed the government's help, congress was trying to avoid a shutdown -- no, no, wait a minute, a default. wait, back then it was a fiscal cliff. sorry, just too much to keep straight. and that's how you know and that's when you begin to know that the house republicans are honey badgers. they don't give a you know what. speaker boehner and his honey badger posse seemed to forget that the northeast is not comprised simply of liberals, they've got republicans there. and when bayoehner chose not to proceed with relief for sandy, they brought the smackdown. >> unprecedented, disgusting, unworthy of the leadership of this house. they should reconsider or hang their heads in shame, mr. speaker. >> that we would walk away without doing our part to help the people suffering in new york

in new jersey, connecticut, pennsylvania, and other parts of the country is outrageous! it is simply outrageous. >> mr. speaker, tonight's action not to hold this vote on the implemental is absolutely indefensible. everybody played by the rules, except tonight when the rug is pulled out from under us. absolutely infusible, absolutely indefensible. we have a moral obligation to hold this vote! >> mr. speaker, we cannot turn our backs on our citizens who need us! >> and just as quickly as chris christie had started that bromance with president obama, he was willing to call out the speaker of the house. >> there's only one group to blame for the continued suffering of these innocent victims, the house majority and their speaker, john boehner. >> yeah, john boehner. how did you like it when the gop's golden child of the moment called you out for your shenanigans. apparently not much since you and eric cantor released this

statement the same day. "getting critical aid to the victims of hurricane sandy should be the first priority in the new congress, and that was reaffirmed today with members of the new york and new jersey delegations." in all, it took the house 78 days after superstorm sandy battered the northeast to pass their $51 billion sandy relief bill. house republicans will tell you because there was just too much pork in the senate bill, just like they'll tell you the government shutdown had to happen because of obama care. you see, sandy is the prime example of how republicans manage a crisis. some politicians like chris christie know when to be grateful for federal intervention and when to call out their own party when it is acting a fool. but others, well, they just refuse to help, while they huff and puff and stomp their feet on the ground to get what they want. so holding aid or health care hostage is nothing new. what could be new are the repercussions that republicans could face in 2014 and 2016 for

acting like they do not care about people and denying the very causes of the crisis that affect them. with me at the table this morning are kathy zito, a staten island resident who is still rebuilding after hurricane sandy. david rowdy, a foreign affairs columnist for reuters who wrote last year about the inequality hurricane sandy exposed. eric, author of "heat wave," and james perry, executive director of the greater new orleans fair housing action center, who advised members to their response of sandy, and in the interest of the full disclosure, he's also my husband. david, it did feel like part of the government response to sandy this time was difficult, because fema performed better than it had in some sort of recent massive disasters, yet we saw congress behaving badly. so a year out now, can we say, do we have a clear assessment of how our government responded to this disaster? >> i think the city, and you can

say more about this than me, there was some good response to this. and even in the clips i showed, i want to give those northeast republicans credit. and even this week, the sanity caucus stood up to the suicide caucus -- >> is that what we're calling them? the stanity caucus? i like that. >> mitch mcconnell, of all, and peter king, standing up saying, you need government in some situations and you can't deny aid for hurricanes and you can't also play with defaults. so there was a real difference in the response of the government, but we still have a real problem with this divide in the country and it's not getting any better and, you know, the resistance in the tea party is still from some of the poorest parts of the country. >> yeah -- >> these are votes in areas democrats should do better in, to be frank. least, health insurance, the worst futures, and why is that happening. >> eric, it feels to me, your work in part on disaster is less about the disaster and more about what it exposes, the social autopsy it tells us about

who is vulnerable. what did we learn from sandy, both about who was vulnerable in that moment, but also sort of our broader political vulnerability? >> it's interesting. if you think about the debate we had over katrina, a lot of it was about inequality and race and the underlying vulnerability we've actually said less about. those dimensions of vulnerability with sandy, even though low-income new yorkers, for instance, were more likely to be displaced and to suffer long-term consequences than were wealthy homeowners. now the underlying vulnerability is about climate change, how we're going to relate to this dramatic environment in which we see storm surges and extreme weather. we face big questions now. not about how to build it back, but how to build forward in anticipation of more things like this. >> right. and we'll talk as we go forward about the fact that even that notion that we are vulnerable to climate change is apparently up for debate in our current congress. >> or the sanity caucus. >> i'm about to use that just all the time. so james, part of what you did after sandy, you were here

talking to communities about your experiences of leadership post-katrina. what advice did you have for northeastern communities about how to hold people accountable? >> more important than talking to the communities, i spoke to the christie administration itself, and i said, learn from our mistakes in louisiana. for instance, we had bad contractors who did a terrible job. don't hire them. >> here's the list. >> but they hired them anyway. for instance, hgi is managing a major rebuilding contract for the state of new jersey and they're doing a terrible job. and you know, told you so. >> right. >> so i think that the real difficulty here is that we haven't learned from past disasters and past failures. >> this idea of learning from them, it always feels to me, kathy, is in part because the voices of the people most impacted are often most silent. so we end up hearing from policy makers and not from people who are impacted on the ground. it's a year later. where are you in your process? >> i'm one of the lucky ones. i am back in my home.

i'm back in since the beginning of july. i'm back in without furniture, without having insurance money. my contractor and friends have been the ones that have paid for everything. to pay the subcontractor, so you can continue to move forward. not everyone is that lucky. it's a disaster. how do you pay for flood insurance, your entire time being there? 30 years being there, paid it, had no problems, you had a flood, where's my money? they give you a little bit in the money and the supplemental is now eight months later. no one answers your questions. me and clive is on a first-name basis, he tells me, ma'am, one more time, i'm going to fly through the phone, i'm done with it all. we have an increase in flood insurance, so my family who have little bungalows all along the beach instead of paying $11,000 a year are paying $31,000 a year.

we lost everything, our homes were destroyed, our businesses were destroyed. the area on my house from highland boulevard to my home is four blocks. not city blocks, little blocks, and we have 13 homes no one's living in. that's just that far. that's not going towards the water yet. >> james, how familiar are stories like this to you eight years after katrina in new orleans. >> as you know, if you drive through the lower ninth ward today, it is a vacant field, essentially, because nothing is happening. there's been so many stories about how many money has been allocated, but still eight years out, the lower ninth ward is not recovering, not even close. and we talk about this each time we see each other, but it's a long haul. and unfortunately, it's going to be a long time -- >> it's not what i want to do. i don't want a long haul. i've paid my taxes, i'm sick of government, our mayor is a moron. that's the nicest word i have for him, and i'm holding my hand so i don't have anything else. he rebuilt our beaches, that was an important factor when we're living in total despair and disgusting conditions.

>> and as we go out, i want to come back on this, because this is in part a fundamental question about what government is for. when you say that, when you say, i'm sick of government and it's because of the lack of protection. but i want to remind people that part of how we ended up with this sanity versus suicide caucus is because the club for growth and other conservative organizations actually urged senators to vote no on hurricane sandy, on the relief bill for hurricane sandy, hr-1, which is scheduled for consideration in the upper chamber that week. and the vote on the final passage and perhaps procedural votes would be included in the club's 2012 congressional scorecard. so conservatives were being scored on whether or not they voted against you getting the kind of need -- help that you needed. so we'll think more about that when we come back. because when we come back, the hits keep on coming. and the victims of the storm are still suffering, maybe for very avoidable reasons still a year later.

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as we approach the one-year anniversary of hurricane sandy, we're hearing about lingering issues that still persist from the storm, like sandy lung, which may be causing reps pratory issues for new jersey joer residents and first responders. or homeless sandy residents getting evicted from new york hotel rooms because the government ruled the program was too costly to continue. or from families having to decide between skyrocketing flood insurance premiums and rebuilding. and as a reminder that disaster is not just a short-term crisis, disaster creates long-term problems that takes responsible, collective action to truly address them. and eric, i want to come to you on this. as we think about disasters, whether it is the heat wave in chicago many years ago or

katrina or superstorm sandy, they always teach us something about infrastructure, about both our human infrastructure, our political infrastructure, and our literal infrastructure. what lessons have we been failing to learn about that? >> well, there's a few right now, and they're urgent. so glad year talking about it. first of all, the power grid and the energy infrastructure is really out of date. i live in lower manhattan. i had a blackout. there was water getting up to the floor where i live, it was a bad situation. and i was like a lot of people in lower manhattan, i couldn't really believe that the powers that be out there would let us be dark for one day, two days, a full week. but clearly we are behind the times and need to do something to get smarter, more resilient grids, and that's going to take a serious investment. we also learned something about the communications infrastructure, which failed miserably. so when i was sitting at home, trying to reach out to my 94-year-old stepfather who was also in the dark and to friends and family to find out what was happening in our city, i couldn't do that. there was no service. and the cell service routinely

fails. it turns out that a growing number of americans rely on this for communication. >> they don't have land lines, right. >> but the phone industry, the mobile phone industry has pushed very hard to make sure they're regulated as an entertainment industry, not as a lifeline industry that provides public services. so they routinely fail. look, we are now in a situation where people in cities throughout this country expect that the power will go out and the communications grid will go out, and even the transit system will go out during all kinds of ordinary summer weather. we are living like people in developing nations that don't have nearly the kind of wealth and security that we have. and if there's ever been a moment where we need to recognize the challenge before us, this is it. >> so, david, as i listen to eric talk about that kind of infrastructure, i think, if ever there were a bipartisan sort of thing that one could get around, it would be this. like, electricity. not a partisan issue, right? cell phone towers, not a racial

question, right? these should be the few places where right now, there would be enough political will to do the kind of government spending we need. and yet, that doesn't seem to be true. >> no, it's not happening. it's a great point you mentioned. i saw this earlier today. the output economically of the new york metro areas is around $17 trillion. that's roughly the equivalent of all of canada. it's more than all of australia. the money is here, why aren't we investing it? one positive thing is that bill deblasio in his mayoral run has made inequality his core issue. that has really caught fire with people in the city. they're excited with how you address it. the problem is, the things he's proposing to do are not going to make it through the state legislature in albany. so you've got gridlock in albany and washington, stopping a positive political development in the city. >> so this point about cities and the state legislature, that -- as a louisiana resident, right, living in new orleans, that idea that you could have reasonable leadership in the city that recognizes the need for infrastructure development, that simply can't get through a bobby jindal, for example.

>> yeah. it's one of the amazing things about the christie/obama bromance, that two parties from different parties actually agree to work together. because as you know, in louisiana, we had two people from different parties who hated each other and the governor and the president's position. but still, i think that the issue is not really with whether or not these two parties can get along, the problem is that there is a conservative push that says, we are going to do whatever it takes to lower the amount of money that government has and that the government spends. and so we are ready to go through any disaster, a disaster for our party, a disaster for ourselves as individuals, and disasters for our communities in order to lower government funding and spending. >> again, not to sour the bromance here, because i love the love, but let's recall that chris christie refused to take the federal dollars that were going to build another tunnel, to improve the transit system, so that we had better capacity to move from new york to new

jersey. and that he has also been reluctant to invest state dollars in the other kinds of infrastructure improvements that that state needs. and this principled refusal to do that for the sake of internal politics in the republican party is costing the people of new jersey, but let's face it, also the people in new york. we were part of a political cosystem here, and there's no municipality or state that can do this alone. >> stay right with us. i want to come back to you on some of these questions about the long-term impact, but i also want to talk about denial. denial, denial, denial. because if you don't like an issue, let's say, for example, climate change or the debt ceiling, let's just pretend it's not real. that is the strategy of senator tom coburn, next. [ male announcer ] this is karen and jeremiah. they don't know it yet, but they're gonna fall in love, get married, have a couple of kids, [ children laughing ] move to the country, and live a long, happy life together where they almost never fight about money. [ dog barks ] because right after they get married,

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once a day xarelto® means no regular blood monitoring -- no known dietary restrictions. for more information and savings options, call 1-888-xarelto or visit goxarelto.com. what's even more jaw-dropping than the way republicans hold up legislation is how far they're willing to go to deny facts.

we saw it most recently with the debt ceiling deniers. >> there is no such thing as a debt ceiling in this country. i would dispel the rumor that is going around that you hear on every newscast, that if we don't raise debt ceiling, that we will default on our debt. we won't. >> if you don't raise the debt ceiling, what that means is you would have a balanced budget. it doesn't mean you wouldn't pay your bills. >> there's zero chance that the u.s. government is going to default on its debt. it's unfortunate people have conflated this idea of not raising the debt ceiling immediately on october 17th with somehow defaulting on our debt. >> okay, and some of the very people that you just saw denying the debt ceiling also deny climate change. in particular, republican senator tom coburn said the following in august about his views on climate change. "i am a global warming denier. i don't deny that." while coburn has been consistent with his denialism and how to pay for disaster relief, his fellow oklahomans may take exception, since they're still picking up from the pieces the

devastating tornado that struck the state in may. when you see lawmakers saying, oh, no, this is just not real, it's just not a problem, how do you respond to someone still rebuilding? >> i want them to come and just live in my house for a week. i just want them to be there one week and watch how many phone calls you make a day. watch how everything you've worked for your whole life and paid taxes for is just, oh, well. and i want them to wake up. they have to get off their band-aids and see what we're going through. don't sit back in your office and look at a newspaper or listen to news and say, oh, okay, this is great. you know, these people are rebuilt. our mayor thinks we're rebuilt. that moron thinks, no big deal. we're good, we're new yorkers, we're great. come and live with me. >> you said two things both earlier and now, one is, what we pay taxes for, right? so we have contributed into this pot. but earlier you were talking about, what we have paid on our insurance premium all these

years for. >> oh, tons. >> and the idea all these years you're contributing into the pot, you're part of the system, and when you're in need of help, it's not there for you. >> it isn't. i have $217,000 worth of damage to my home. i received $90,000 and that was just, i think, luck. it was sheer luck that i received that much. we have nothing in our homes. we borrowed from everyone that we can borrow from. we charged everything that we can charge. i couldn't get another charge card if i had to. >> and as expensive as it is on each individual level, this kind of denial is expensive to us as a nation. we were looking at the cost of extreme weather just in 2012, $30 billion from the u.s. drought. $65 billion from snowstorm sandy. $11 billion of combined severe weather that aren't always named storms. $1 billion in western wildfires, and $2.3 billion from hurricane isaac. it costs us to act like this isn't happening. >> you know, we save about $4

down the road for every dollar that we spend on preparing, and there's a very concrete lesson again from sandy. in new york city, we talked about climate change, planned for it to some extent, the mta pulled the subway cars out of the system to higher ground, ripped the electrical lines out, so when the water came in, they didn't get saturated with saltwater. in new jersey, where the governor denies climate change, day took the transit cars and put them in a flood zone. so they had $120 million of damage to those cars, a much longer time to restore systems. literally because of planning that comes from denial. there's a deep cost and it's got to end. >> james, i kept thinking that there's a way, you know, that what we saw in the shutdown, for example, was people finally realizing, oh, this is what government does, right? when you couldn't go to the park and you realize, oh, that's government, right? and similarly, sometimes it's being victimized by disaster that we realize, sort of, what government is there for. what it's supposed to do.

i wonder, as so many more people become vulnerable because of climate change, if we'll finally get some political will around it. >> it's one of the most difficult questions that democrats have had to wrestle, how much do they let government fall apart to make the point how important government is. this is how government starts. individuals try to make it on their own, and they can't. they need help. so they start working with their fellow man. and they say, let's try. let's continue to work together. let's create community. and then let's formalize that. and behold, government! >> man, you went back to hobbs! i appreciate that! >> and so, we've done that. and so, we know this works. let's continue down this path. and that's the thing that the conservatives deny. >> because without it, right, what the lesson is, is without leviethon or some collection action, life for man is brutish, nasty and short. that we, in fact, do need one another. and not just in the private charity ways that we saw in the shutdown.

so part of what happens in the context of the shutdown or even what i heard you saying is, look, my friends and family and people in the community, they come out, they help, but then you don't end up with the kind of justice that can be created only by government intervention. >> and i'm going to keep, you know, grasping at the sanity caucus here. this has been a positive week, i think, was maybe post-sandy, chris christie sees that he was wrong on some of these things. the u.s. chamber of commerce turned on the tea party. there's the big question coming forward is, will the u.s. chamber of commerce, never a friend of democrats, actually fund moderate republicans to countertea party people that are being funded by the heritage and other groups. record-low approval ratings for the republican party. so it's an amazing thing that's happened this week. maybe there will be a change. and i would, you know, i cautious against, you know, lombasting all republicans. but of all people, mitch

mccokell -- mitch mcconnell, stands up and makes the last-minute deal, is an adult, and that's a big thing. >> you give me so many good things today. i love the sanity caucus, but i also love mitch mccokel, perhaps he'll be stumping for ken cuccinelli later in the day. thanks to you all. up next, chipotle politics. how a restaurant chain is up ending an entire industry. and the story of how one nerd got lost in the search for a burrito. ke rowe here at a ford dealer with a little q and a for fiona. tell me fiona, who's having a big tire event? your ford dealer. who has 11 major brands to choose from? your ford dealer. who's offering a rebate? your ford dealer. who has the low price tire guarantee, affording peace of mind to anyone who might be in the market for a new set of tires? your ford dealer. i'm beginning to sense a pattern. get up to $140 in mail-in rebates when you buy four select tires with the ford service credit card.

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it is less than a tenth of a mile. it is one turn. and yet one of our producers, last call her, i don't know, linda, is renowned for repeatedly failing to locate the mexican-themed restaurant. but she's a fighter. and when she decided to try again one bright summer day, another one of our nerdland producers, let's call him eric, tagged along and decided to live tweet the event. for the record, the story you're about to see is completely real. the video is not. >> reporter: 1:34 p.m., eric tweets, left turn, good start. two minutes later, eric tweets that linda is "confused by blinking red hand on traffic light." ultimately, linda crossed the street, but then according to the next tweet we saw at 1:38, she said "now this is where it gets tricky." mind you, she was now about 20 feet from the restaurant and

walked right by it. and then at 1:43, we really lost it when we saw this tweet. "asking street vendor for help." now, this goes on and on and on for quite a while. linda eventually google's the location, but just to give you a sense of how much fun the nerdland staff likes to have at each other's expense, there was this tweet from eric. "would offer to help, but busy tweeting." then at last, at 1:50 p.m., "success! linda now aware of how many times she passed it." one final tweet that let us know that eric was getting exactly what he deserved. "getting punched," was all it said. here at nerdland, we find that story endlessly entertaining. and leads to a lot of talk about chipotle, but lately we are not the only ones talking about the restaurant. lately, everyone is talking chipotle, because chipotle is doing something that is making

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with ted's now ex-girlfriend. wheeeee! whoo! later ted! online claims appointments. just a click away on geico.com. can a corporations be socially responsible and profitable? chipotle, the gourmet burrito chain, with more than 1,500 locations, is trying. chipotle advocates for sustainable agriculture, including meat raised without the use of antibiotics and organic, locally sourced, nonmodified vegetables. the chain hammered its message home with a recent ad portraying conventional factory farming in a pretty ugly light. now, chi poelt lay does use the kind of ingredients that it promotes, although that comes with an asterisk whenever possible. it pays more for these ingredients than it would pay for conventionally raised beef or non-organic produce, but that

hasn't seemed to upset the shareholders. chipotle has one of the highest stock prices on the u.s. exchanges. and more than $500 a share as of friday afternoon. that's up more than 100% in the past year. joining me now is chipotle's chief markets officer, mark crumppacker and david phillips. andrew mosel and joy reid. so nice to have you all here. mark, talk to me about the notion of a business strategy that is about ethically produced foodstuffs. >> sure. it's a very long-standing part of chipotle's dna, really. this started about 16 years ago, when steve els, the founder, after three or four years, he started becoming more curious about where the ingredients were coming from. so he actually went on a trip to a hog farm to see where it was coming from and he didn't like much what he saw. >> yeah, hog farms would not

make you feel like you would like to have some pork. >> no. so at that point, he decided to do something different and bought some naturally raised pork from a farm called -- from paul willis' farm, called niemann ranch, and from that point on, he began to question where every ingredient was coming from. and it led him down this path, this journey we've been on ever since to find more and more responsibly raised ingredients. and it's gone through all of the meats and into the vegetables and now we're into the world of gmos and all that. >> so, obviously, the scarecrow video. and this is part of why i wanted you here. the video is not an ad. it doesn't play during the super bowl or anything. but it's gone viral. everybody was sending this to me, in part, we've done a lot of chicken segments here on mhp, and people are saying, have you seen the scarecrow ad? how effective is that kind of marketing? this idea that we are ethically and socialably responsible and sending this message out. >> it could be a great thing for

a company like chipotle. they have a whole firm structure and strategy in their culture revolves around being authentic and true to their ingredients, true to their customers. that's a big part of what they do. part of it is that the food does taste good. but when i'm going to chipotle, i'm buying into the image and into the identity of it. and this video serves that purpose. it also sort of pushes them -- makes them a little bit edgy, and sort of gives a david and goliath kind of picture at the end of it as well. and that is, i think, going to be a point of tension as they start to grow. but for the moment, i think it does a fantastic job of selling this really complete picture and consistent picture of what chipotle is. >> it seems to me, even as it frames itself as the david, what it frames as the goliath, particularly the bad gmo producing, bad behavior of your food, is the rest of the fast

food industry. so even as we see these climbing stocks, you know, you've been here at the table before, where we've talked about the wages for fast food workers and that sort of. at the moment, mcdonald's is taking a hit and burger king. i've got a kid, who's right at the age, let's go have some chicken nuggets, and she's like, pink slime? oh, no. that became the narrative of how we think about fast food. >> they wouldn't be doing it if there wasn't demand in the market place for more locally sourced products and healthier products. that's what we're seeing now at the fast food level and the local level, your local restauranteur is finding better ways to get their food and serve it to the public. >> so, joy, the tension that we've been having in nerdland around this segment, okay, we have a fun time with chipotle, especially our linda story about it, but we don't want to be doing a commercial for chipotle, because in part they are this big publicly traded fast food

place who says they get a portion of their food locally and organically grown. is that enough? >> it's interesting. i'm not sure, because we're in this age of diminished brand loyalty. where all of these brands, whether it's restaurants or store brands are fighting against a public that no longer has the brand loyalty sort of conditioning. people don't grow up loyal to one specific brand and only buy it. so these companies are sort of creating cultural identification as a substitute. and when you're talking about that, it was reminding me a lot of whole foods. who did the same sort of cultural identification, which then ran up against the actual politics of the guy who ran whole foods and created this cognitive dissidence. it's very fragile. the minute the guy who ran whole foods revealed himself to be very staunchly opposed to the affordable care act and very conservative, people who identified with it were like, i don't know if i identify with it anymore. i think it's very fragile. people aren't brand loyal anyone, and anything you can do to tamper with it.

and gmos is one of those areas where people might be, well, it's very easy to lose it. >> the fact is that the food industry has not been very happy with scarecrow and with chipotle and has said that the video goes overboard and it's, in fact, not true of how your pink slime is produced. >> well, for one, it is an animated video, there were a lot of crows and scarecrows. so it's not meant to be literal literally interpretive. but it's the part of our marketing to try to get people to think about where their food comes. it does upset some aspect of agriculture. we're not saying there's good farmers and bad farmers, we're thinking there's good ways, perhaps, and bad ways o of producing food. some that are more sustainable than others. and we as chipotle have a pretty strong opinion about what the more sustainable ways are. >> i want to read this from the chicken council, in part because

i think this is often the pushback you'll hear. the chicken council says, in general, this romanticized view of agriculture, which is, in part, the chipotle view, this romanticized view of agriculture is not going to be able to feed the world. we don't think it's beneficial to demonize one product system over the other and we all need to work together. we just had that conversation about democrats and republicans and the sanity caucus and all that. but, in fact, within a competitive marketplace, you don't all work together. you distinguish yourself as different. >> absolutely. one of the things that's interesting from a business strategy perspective is chipotle is targeting a certain group with a strategy that's going to be very difficult for competitors to compete with. that's what you would want to do. it's a good strategy. so you say, here is what we are. here's what we do, and the type of food. here's how we source it. well, yes, in a grand, beautiful world, everyone is going to have their food sourced, but that's not practical. the practical type of solution is actually closer to what the

market's kind of argument might provide. is that, well, before we talked about how great chipotle is doing, but so is sort of doritos, it's doing great. gangbusters. but sort of what we want is we want a taco bell that serves can tina bell, which is their fresher offer, and probably going to serve a doritos locos taco, which is what's going to make the money and that's great. >> but then we end up with two tiers of food. we already have a two-tiered food system, but even more, we end up with poor people being able to afford only one kind of food that isn't locally sourced and organic and gmo-free and wealthy people get to buy from the other menu. and that, in fact, creates a whole set of inherent disparities. >> it does. and also, the places that are doing these sort of fresher alternatives and providing upscale fast food probably have better pay as well. so you do have a two-tiered almost employment system too. the more upscale offerings and the more upscale foods.

and are there chipotles located in neighborhoods where people have a food desert right now, where they're not getting fresh food. you're seeing is mcdonald's respond and trying to push their salad offerings and everyone's responding to this fresher food movement, but it's a good point that i doubt you're going to have the same level. my kids love chipotle too, but they're buying it in manhattan. they're not buying it in east new york. >> hold on for us. we'll stay on chipotle when we come back. ♪ [ male announcer ] staying warm and dry has never been our priority. our priority is, was and always will be serving you, the american people. so we improved priority mail flat rate to give you a more reliable way to ship. now with tracking up to eleven scans, specified delivery dates, and free insurance up to $50 all for the same low rate. [ woman ] we are the united states postal service. [ man ] we are the united states postal service. [ male announcer ] and our priority is you. go to usps.com® and try it today.

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all right. we're back and we're talking about the possibility of doing profitable, but socially conscience business. and you wanted to pick up a point joy was making at the end. >> at the end of the day, the restaurant business is just a business. mcdonald's is not serving a $3 or $4 delicious hamburger to try to make an ethical statement, because there's a market for that. there's a market where that's maybe all they can afford to

eat. this is an industry where they've been working to do better, to bring more locally sourced products and healthy products and try to get subsidies or partnerships that were going to make that affordable, so they can offer these things. i was yesterday at a conference sponsored by governor cuomo trying to match local purveyors with restaurants here in new york city to make sure they're getting high-quality products is at affordable prices and create those partnerships. and i think that's somewhere we can have the cooperation you're talking about. >> i want to challenge the idea that tasty equals high-quality. in part because part of what we find tasty is indoginous, and part of what chipotle is suggesting, about why it's labor practices or food practices can't be better is a false one. in fact, you can make these kind of choices and still have a profitable business. >> if you look at chipotle, the secret to it in a lot of ways is

the fact that we don't do a ton of advertising or create a ton of new products all the time. we spend about 33% of our sales on ingredients where the average might be in the low 20s, mid-20s. that allows us to buy thirg quality ingredients, substantially higher quality, and that's facilitated mainly because we don't add all these new products to the menu all the time. regular fast food marketing works by introducing a new product, wrapping advertising around that, and doing that several times a year. and it has a couple of really, really negative consequences. one is, it's really expensive. because that advertising is hugely expensive. but you have to create those products in way as it doesn't take any skill to prepare them in the restaurant. you couldn't retrain -- you know, we have 40,000 employees. you couldn't retrain them every three months to cook something new. our menu never changes, and so the people actually cook in the restaurants and we save all that advertising money and all those process. >> i want to ask you a little bit about the people cooking in your restaurants. four years ago, there was some

critique around chipotle not signing on around some fair labor practices. and part of the push came from the fact that there was this sort of narrative about chipotle as, you know, organically and locally sourced food and was sort of like, you're nice to your chicken, but not nice to your workers, and chipotle did end up signing on to that agreement. and it made me wonder, maybe standing out there saying, we are the whole foods or the chipotle and we have a better model, you have to be better in other areas. >> we're up for tons of criticism. and so our effort is to be as transparent as absolutely possible where everything comes from. so if anybody were to discover anything about chipotle, there would be nothing there to really discover, because we've been forthcoming. >> you tell on yourselves. >> and we're far less than perfect. we have a long way to go with all of our ingredients in terms of making them better. just on our quest now to source only non-gmo ingredients is going to take us a while.

they're everywhere. so we're not saying that we're perfect. it's just that we're on this journey and we would love to have more people on this journey with us. >> is that going to be a new model for how business is done, whether it's restaurants or others in this country? >> i think you do see a trend towards greater transparency. and that is, i think that's good. we have to make sure to balance that with educating consumers. so this just transparency is going to be a list of words, we're not going to be known -- we're going to be sort of flowing with the debate on the sign scientific evidence really say that gmo is good or bad? a lot will have to be on educating the semester as well. i don't think, though, that this is going to spread as much as other people do. i personally think it would be great. that's my own set of personal values. just looking a ate, our best chance is for taco bell -- >> to have -- >> to offer both. that's our best shot.

>> i feel like my theme for the hour is sanity caucus, both in our political realm and also potentially in the business realm. thank you to mark and damon and andrew and joy is going to stick around a little bit longer. when we come back, the conversation is going to turn to some sensitive topics. gui given the developing story out of maryville, missouri, we're going to discuss rape culture. plus, why one of the most harrowing movies of the year, "12 years of slaves," is also maybe the most important movie you'll ever see. [ woman ] too weak. wears off.

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add brand new belongings from nationwide insurance and we'll replace stolen or destroyed items with brand-new versions. we put members first. join the nation. ♪ nationwide is on your side ♪ welcome back. i'm melissa harris-perry. in the past year, the words steubenville, ohio, came synonymous with the rape of a young girl by two of the town's high school football players, committed while they and their friends took pictures and texted about the assault. back in march, both of the boys were convicted and sentenced to time in a juvenile detention facility. but response from within the town helped to bring to light an

issue too often ignored, rape culture. the steubenville case was notable for the horror of the incident, but also what drew even more attention was the vocal support of many in the town and in the national media, not for the survivor, but for the perpetrators. another small town rape case, this one in maryville, missouri. population, 12,000, became national news this week. 14-year-old daisy coleman and her 13-year-old friend, alleged in january of twelve that they were raped by two student athletes that they had been drinking with that night, with one of the rapes videotaped by a third boy. as "the kansas city star" detailed last saturday in a lengthy report, daisy's mother, melinda, discovered her the morning after the incident, sprawled on the front porch and barely conscious in below-freezing temperatures, wearing only a t-shirt and sweatpants. but it's what happened later in the days and months after the incident that is inviting comparisons to what happened in

steubenville. though daisy and her mom initially received support from their community, the k.c. star report says that a sizable contingent stood by the accused athletes, and the phrases "gets what coming" and "asking for it" are just a few of the things said. and a few weeks later, melinda was fired from her job. and in march of 2012, the charges against the boys were all dropped. after that, daisy has struggled with depression, has attempted suicide more than once. she and they are family left maryville and six months ago were informed that their empty house up for sale had burned to the ground. the causes of the fire remain unknown. after all that, there's some good news. the online fever about this and "the k.c. star" report evoked

and anonymous led to the governor calling for the attorney general to revisit the case. and a special prosecutor will be appointed to determine whether any new charges will be filed. which daisy herself in her friday op-ed published by the online women's magazine called xojane called a victory, not just for me, but for every girl. at the table with me, irin carmon, and byron hurt, filmmaker and co-founder of mentors in violence prevention, and joy reid, managing editor of thegrio.com. i felt like as i was telling that story, the table kept getting quieter and quieter because of how painful this moment is. irin, without adjudicating the case itself and the facts of this, what does this maryville case and sort of what's happened tell us about the thing that is rape culture? >> for a long time, feminists have been saying that rape is

about power and i think there are a lot of ways in this particular case that we can see in which social and political power really came to bear. whether it's from the sort of social dynamics of these two girls who were younger, who were new to town, wanting to, you know, impress and drink, these guys that had a lot of social power in town, to then have the prosecutors reacted, to how then the town reacted in shaming the girls, as opposed to focusing on what the behavior was from the men. so i think any shot at justice was already going to be sort of predetermined by these social dynamics and power and by the fact that so much of the blame focused on the girls for what they had done to lead the situation to happen. >> i read your piece on msnbc.com. and part of what i found so useful about it is this -- the work that you've been doing. and you know that you've been doing a round, separating out that the notion about rape is force. we know it's rape if there's

force, if it's violent, if there's a weapon, if there's threats. rather than saying it's rape if there's not explicit consent. and that divide between force and consent and how do we shift that conversation. i want to ask you to a language about consent. >> i was telling -- recent talking to a bunch of college students about sexual violence. and one of the students in the audience -- there were 600 people in the audience -- one of them asked me what rape was. i was kind of startled, because i thought we had a working definition of what sexual violence means in our culture. so you're right, i think that the stereotype and the truth that oftentimes forces part of sexual violence is something that we need to recognize. but there are all these other conditions that are legally understood to be rape, that i think a lot of people are just unfamiliar with or choose not to be familiar, right? so that's one thing. and in this case, under intoxication, unable to give consent, is not seen as rape. it's actually seen as something that leads to "she deserves it," "she was asking for it."

and unless we understand that yes means yes and everything else means no, those aren't grey areas, those are actually moments in which someone is verbalizing their desire not to have a sexual interaction or sexual intercourse, until we actually understand that and formalize that and teach kids consistently, we're going to still have this rape culture that not only leads to further victimization, but actually leads to a kind of domestic terror. i think this case is very much an act of domestic terror. >> in which predators find refuge in what are so-called grey areas, where predators prey on the vulnerable under this cloud that we have. if she drinked for it, she was asking for it, if she went to his house, she asked for it. that leads to people who find an opportunity. these are serial predators. >> so there are no blurred lines. >> not for the perpetrator. >> and oftentimes not in law in the sense of consent. you were just in missouri, not far from here, talking to boys. and it also feels like an awful lot of what we do is talking to girls. what did you learn from them around this question of their

understanding about what rape and rape culture is? >> i've been working on this issue for a very long time. i've worked with tens of thousands of boys, talking about rape and sexual assault and things that we can do as men, as boys, to be a part of the solution and not be a part of the problem. to be proactive bystanders. i think one problem is that a lot of boys and men just don't hear other men who are speaking out against rape and sexual assault in very powerful ways, in ways that they can identify with. in ways that they can say, okay, this is something i should be involved in, right? this is something i can take a stand on. i'm talking about men who are not rapists, men who were not predators. men who don't batter or, you know, abuse women. i'm talking about guys who care about women, who love women, who have sisters, who are daughters, who are allied with women.

so someone who gave the keynote in missouri last week is to really encourage and inspire boys to not mute their voices. to not remain silent in the face of violence against women. whether it's sexual violence or physical violence. that's part of what i do. and it's challenging. it's very difficult to voluntarily get boys and men engaged in this issue. >> this connects to me, what you were just saying about the notion of terrorism, and that part of what's going on -- part of what terrorism does, we're going to talk later about "12 years of slavery" and i kept thinking about the plantation violence, and the idea -- not only does it silence the victims, which we'll continue to talk about, but it also silences bystanders. because then you will get pulled into it. you could be called these things. you might be victimized. and that's the terrible -- >> right. >> i'm sorry. >> i was going to say, when you asked about the online dynamic, in this day and age, you add to

that the dynamics of bullying online, so the tendency is for other kids the same age as the victim and a little older to really terrorize and revictimize the girl again. this girl was told she should go ahead and kill herself from other teenagers. the wave of online support that came from anonymous was separate, but from her own peers, she was vilified and she was made -- even though at 14, forgetting all the other things about whether or not you can give consent if intoxicated, at 14, you can't give consent at all, and it's always rape if the child is under the age of 16 in these states. the idea that boys still don't know that is pretty scary. and the group dynamics when they get together encourages them and attacks the girl is terrifying. >> it is true that in the case of missouri, because of the age of the alleged perpetrator here, it would not count as statutory rape, but certainly the question that a 14-year-old could not give consent -- and this goes back to the idea that consent is the full -- so stay with me. we'll stay on this. but also, i want to talk a

little bit about elizabeth smart, because she weighed in on this in such an extraordinary way about the rape culture question, blaming the victim, and the demoralization of the conservative purity politics, when we come back. [ male announcer ] maybe you've already heard what they're saying about the nissan altima. ♪ and we have to admit, that it's all true. but don't just take their word for it, check it out for yourself. the award-winning nissan altima. nissan. innovation that excites. now get a $179 per month lease on a 2013 nissan altima. ♪ with three entrées under $20. like our new snow crab and crab butter shrimp, just $14.99. only at red lobster where we sea food differently. [ male announcer ] now try 7 lunch choices at $7.99. sandwiches, salads, and more. woman: everyone in the nicu --

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during her nine-month captivity in 2002, utah teenager elizabeth smart suffered repeated sexual assaults. because of the nightmare she was living, smart said she, quote, felt so dirty and so filthy. smart recalled once having a teacher who likened sex to chewing gum, so she thought of herself after the ordeal as a chewed up piece of gum, the kind nobody ever wants again. it's why she, earlier this year, criticized abstinence-only education. now, this brave survivor has spoken up again, this time targeting rape culture. in a new profile in "the new yorker," smart is quoted as

saying, "i can't tell you how many women i've met who said, when i was your age, i was raped, but it was kind of my fault because of x, y, or z, and i just want to pull my hair out." i want to play you a guest who was on a fox news channel. this is not someone who works for fox news, this is joseph b. performing what i think elizabeth smart is talking about here. >> there's no denying that from the surface, it appears to be some sort of cover-up, but when you look at the finer details, there are telltale signs of this girl actually lying. she is leaving her ophome at 1: a.m. in the morning and no one forced her to drink. and what happens? she gets caught by her mom, she's embarrassed, and the easy way out here is, mom, someone took advantage of me. but what did she expect to happen at 1:00 a.m. in the morning after sneaking out? i'm not assuming that these facts are accurate and this did happen, i'm not saying that she

deserved to be raped. but knowing the facts as we do here, including what the prosecutor has said forth, this case is going nowhere and it's going nowhere quick. >> let me just say that the fox news host absolutely smacked that down immediately thereafter. i want to clarify, that was not a pro-rape culture moment on fox news. but that articulation is one that is exactly what elizabeth smart is saying about this purity culture. >> yeah, i wrote a piece in response to the kind of serena williams controversy about steubenville. and one of the things i was talking about is part of rape culture means we have a paf loanian response to when we hear rape occurs. and what that piece says to me, not only do we have this knee-jerk response to blame the victim, but we have a very sophisticated profile of what a victim looks like, and why she needs to be blamed, so there's no thinking, no thought process about the perpetrator in this case, what was he doing at 1:00 a.m. in the morning? why was he in a place where there was alcohol? so to me, how deeply embedded our response to rape is and how

immediately we're going to blame victims is all a way of not just maintaining a rape culture, but also, it's the seduction of patri patriarchy, the rape culture against girls, and the willingness or unwillingness to push back against it is terrifying. but elizabeth smart, also, is so brave. and also daisy coleman. this moment is so unique in this mother and daughter not only sharing their names, but publicly coming forward in the media spotlight and telling their story, not in the moment of recovery, fully, but in the moment of seeking justice. it's actually very unusual and i applaud them for doing it. >> let's take a quick look at a little bit of what daisy wrote in her piece in xo, because she dust very much sort of speak for herself here. saying, "since this happened, i've been in hospitals too many times to count. i found it impossible to love at times. i've gained and lost friends. i no longer dance or compete in pageants. i'm different now and i can't ever go back to the person i

once was. that one night took it all away from me. i'm nothing more than just a human, but i also refuse to be a victim of cruelty any longer. this is why i'm saying my name. this is why i'm not shutting up." so on the one hand, we have her voicing, but it's interesting, as you were talking about this, no one looking at the perpetrators. byron, we were talking in the break that the boys you work with, the young men you work with have a different narrative in the moment. >> one thing i want to say about that sound bite, it assumes that once the clock strikes the 12:00 a.m., that all men are rapists, right? and that we, you know, the expectation is that if there's alcohol involved and a woman comes over at 12:00 or later, that she's going to get raped or that we're going to rape them. that there's nothing about our socialization that prevents us from doing this, right? or anything about our, you know, structural sense of humanity, right. so that's false. that's not true. you know, this is something that

we as men and boys learn very aero, that women's bodies are de-valued, right? and that we control female bodies. i think that's really clear. and rape, sexual assault, these are tools, weapons of patriarchy. and i think what we also see is how the community protects boys and men and assails a girl and her mother, right, for confronting patriarchy. for confronting a rape culture. >> i want you to pause on that. i want to come back to exactly that. i want to talk about the places where that protection is happening, which is surprisingly on college campuses. and why colleges aren't doing nearly enough to prevent and prosecute. [ coughs, sneezes ]

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it also protects students against sexual misconduct, sexual violence, and retaliation for speaking out. students are failing in their title nine obligations at some of the nation's most elite universities. in new haven last weekend, dozens protested yale university's handling of sexual assault and misconduct complaints, asserting that previous faculty offenders have been given generous six-figure severance packages while victims have been financially incentivized to remain silent through nondisclosure agreements. and arguing that yale suffers with a unique culture of silence. yale came under scrutiny for its rape policy after the university's own report revealed late this summer that it uses terms like nonconsensual sex other than rape. and that some receiveded nothing more than a reprimand. in a statement to mhp show, yale asserts, yale has zero tolerance for sexual misconduct and its policies and practices for

addresses sexual misconduct are model for higher education. at the conclusion of its investigation of a complaint against yale, the federal government concluded that yale was not in violation of title ix. so where is it mothe alchemy of and alcohol more prevalent than on college campuses. >> i've spent time with football teams, basketball teams, hockey teams. a sticking point that always comes up is with alcohol and consent. and when you think about alcohol and consent and whether or not the woman has the ability to give permission to have sex when she's drunk infuriates a lot of guys, because they feel like an undue burden is placed on the men to be responsible for the women's actions and behavior if she has been drinking and they have also been drinking. there's a lot of anger, there's a lot of confusion, there's a lot of hostility and resentment toward girls and women, because

of this whole alcohol and consent issue. >> it's interesting, when you're on college campuses, not that i went yesterday, but when you're this college, a lot of the education around keeping yourself safe from sexual assault is all directed at the behavior of the girls. it's ironic that boys feel like the onus is on them. as a woman, you feel like the onus is all on you, you're told, don't dress provocatively, don't drink, don't leave your house after midnight. all of the onus seems to be on you and your behavior, and at the same time, with college and young girls, this hypersexualization of teenagers, this thing that both things have to happen. that to be desirable to boys, you have to mimic the most sexualized images you're seeing in the media, but you also have to put up a shield around yourselves to make sure nobody does anything to you, because if so, it's your fault. >> this feels to me, the institutional aspect of that, and the notion there is rage or anger. you started, erin, irin, by say that rape is in so many ways about power.

and when there's an anger and angst, and add that to the alchemy of everything else. and then college campuses that have an incentive to cover it up or to downplay it or call it as yale did in their statement to us, sexual misconduct rather than rape, and you get what feels to me like an exceptionally unsafe environment. >> i would also say that college, it's many times too late. we really focus on campus, because, you know, they have the full immersion experience and the kids are often on their own when they're living on campus. a lot of the cases we're talking about are kids who have been in high school or younger. and these are points at which the same sort of educational process would be more important, because kids are already experimenting with drugs and alcohol and sex. but i think there's a strong constitutional urge to protect and say, our boys don't do this. i don't want to ruin his life, is something that happens a lot. but to the extent to which. i talked to the head of

r.a.i.n., the rape, abuse, incest network this week, and he told me the question that they get the most is, is date rape illegal? so we have a long way to go when people are asking, is date rape illegal, for whatever reason they think that that's not real rape. >> and as someone who was sexually assaulted in college, but also as someone like byron who goes around and works with students to end this issue on their campuses, i feel like this is the beginning, it's kind of a tipping point of exposing what we saw with the catholic church, what we're seeing in the military, the ways in which sexual violence is sort of institutionalized on college campuses. and it's remarkable, because they're building on activism that's been happening since the '70s, and i would say we were part of the early -- of the '90s and early 2000 activism. now this title ix, using title r ix to hold schools accountable is a brilliant move and a great strategy. it's interesting that yale is still having to hold people

accountable, because a few years ago, they were the vanguard. so even with title ix, i'm excited about it, there's still a lag between students suing their schools and universities being held accountable. so i would like to just see this momentum really expose university culture as a place where students are really vulnerable. >> maybe this is the wrong direction to go altogether, but what if -- because i've heard this said about university administrators. what if the drinking age moved back to 18 instead of to 21. and what that would mean is that it would then be legal for most college students to drink, and that legality would move it into public space and out of the private spaces where college drinking happens, where the most sort of appalling possibilities occur, because it is private, because it is, you know, shielded. do you think that there's anything in that, or is this really not at all about alcohol policy, but fully about rape policy? >> i think it's not about alcohol policy, only because in a lot of these cases, it's not

the alcohol, it's what they're adding to it. it's someone putting their drink somewhere and someone else putting something else in it. there's only one reason to do that -- >> but i'm thinking, if i can do legally drink in the bar in my town, right, i'm not in a party situation where i've got my red plastic cup, where the -- >> i mean, if you look at other countries, they don't have the extreme pendulum swing, the drinking culture that we do, where they absolutely prohibit younger people from drinking, and people come to campus and they're like, i'm free, i'm crazy and don't understand their own limits. i think anything that would take out the pressure of prohibition. and i started to think this week about maryville, part of the social stigma the girl experienced afterwards has to do with people's attitudes around teenagers and sex, drinking, but also sex. they didn't believe that she was raped. they believe she was a girl who felt guilty about having sex. >> i almost didn't want to go -- but i guess there's a part of me that feels like, on the one hand, i want to talk about the rape culture, but i also want to

talk about all of the things that are feeding -- less the drunk girls, than the idea of young men as well, and the notion of sort of where these vulnerabilities are. there's so much more, i know, but thank you to irin and to byron. coming up, it's been called unflinching, appalling, agonizing, even a master piece. it's a film, "12 years of slave," and nerdland is going to go to the movies next. when we made our commitment to the gulf, bp had two big goals: help the gulf recover and learn from what happened so we could be a better, safer energy company. i can tell you - safety is at the heart of everything we do. we've added cutting-edge technology, like a new deepwater well cap and a state-of-the-art monitoring center, where experts watch over all drilling activity twenty-four-seven. and we're sharing what we've learned, so we can all produce energy more safely. our commitment has never been stronger. an arm wrestling match that mr. clean realized

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published anti-slavery propaganda. but it was, by no means, the first or the only story of slavery in america. because the enslaved people had their own stories to tell. and the power of their published accounts relied not on imagination or interpretation, but on the firsthand, lived experience of people who have survived slavery. more than 200 book-length slave narratives were published in the united states and england between 1760 and 1947. one of those books released in 1853 told the story of solomon northman, a man who was born free, and after being tricked, drugged, and abducted by two con artists was sold and enslaved for more than a decade. in the beginning of the book, solomon writes, "i can speak of slavery only so far as it came under my own observation, only so far as i have known and experienced it in my own person. my object is to give a candid and truthful statement of facts. to repeat the story of my life

without exaggeration, leaving it for others to determine, whereas even the pages of fiction present a picture of more cruel wrong, or a severer bondage." "12 years a slave," the movie based on that book, debuted on friday and has been widely hailed as critics as a must-see. it is the first hollywood movie about slavery to be directed by a black filmmaker, the award-winning steve mcqueen, and it is the first hollywood portrayal of slavery based on the first-person account of an enslaved person. >> days ago, i was with my family, in my home. now you tell me all is lost? to forget who i am, that's the way to survive? well, i don't want to survive. i want to live.

>> the film introduces viewers to northup's life as a free man, married with two children in upstate new york, where he is widely respected in his community as a talented violinist. but as it follows him through his years in bondage, the film contrasts northup's exceptional origins against the ordinary violence and relentless brutality that characterizes the everyday experience of enslaved people. no one in this story, from slaves to slaveholders is spared from the corrupting influence of the institution. and neither is the audience offered any escape from the film, whose long, lingering shots on the daily dehumanization and violence of slavery make it impossible to turn away. you have never seen slavery quite like this. "12 years a slave" is a film that will stay with you long after the credits have rolled. and we're going to talk more about it, next. [ woman ] too weak.

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you may not be among the millions of people who tuned into abc for eight consecutive nights in 1977 to watch the groundbreaking "roots" mini series, but whether you know it or not, your understanding of what slavery looks and feels like has no doubt been based on the show that shocked the nation when it aired. ask anyone who's seen it and they'll most readily recall the show's most notable line. >> behold anything greater than yourself. >> and of course, its most memorable moments. >> i want to hear you say your name. your name is toby. what's your name? >> guntar. >> nearly four decades and multiple on-screen depictions of slavery later, roots continues to be the definitive, dramatic account of slavery in america.

until now. the new film, "12 years a slave" sets a new bar for filmic depictions of slavery, with a portrayal that is so memorable because it is simply impossible to forget. joining me now is laura murphy, who's professor at loyola universal in new orleans and author of "metaphor: the slave trade in west african literature." and khalil mohammad of the chaumberg center for research in plaque culture, and managing editor of thegrio.com, joy reid. i want to start with you, khalil, because if you had to just sort of say, what are the aspects of slavery that americans think we know, that we're actually getting wrong. >> four words, lincoln freed the slaves. >> yeah, that's part of it. >> well, but it's not ironic in this moment. it really is the base timeline from which we start, which is that slavery is an aberration. slavery happened. there are no villains.

it's this amorphous space that just landed in america. even the voice of 19th century social experts and commentators at the time blamed slavery on generations before. they had cursed the nation with the stain of this institution and the presence of africans in america. so we really are not too much further today from that moment, and the power of this narrative of progress leads us with this sense that slavery happened, but it ended. racism in the segregation period e happened, but it ended. and it's the "but it ended," just like they freed the slaves, is the framework, and "12 years of slaves" gives it no framework for that. >> the movie is extremely painful, but probably the most stunning part for me is it was shot in new orleans and there are moments in the film that are blocks from my house, there are

extras in the film who i know from town, and so you don't have that sense that it ended, in part because it's happening -- like, it's literally happening blocks from my house. and it made me -- i walked out and in fact, my husband who had seen it said, you know, there was a point at which he had been arrested for parking tickets and was put in a cell for three days and sort of forgotten along with three other men and he had felt that same sense of, at any point, who you are, your free papers, could just be gone. i can't even really talk about this movie. but i wonder about that notion that sights of slavery is still what we are living in right now. >> one of the things i'm interested in my book, we have this historical nearamnesia abo slavery. the custodians of democracy in my mind are african-americans who have kept this story of slavery alive, not only by linking it to race relations or race equality, but understanding

that this early trauma has set the stage for devastating long-term effects that lead to the present, but have never been resolved in their moment. so for me, sights of slavery really means the kind of ongoing way in which this early trauma, the founding trauma of america, gets re-articulated and reinvigorated with each generation and also with teach -- different social movements kind of address it, but it's never fully changed, bauds we never changed the hierarchy of race in america. >> when you say the extent to which the descendants of slaves are -- a, the film made me so angry, and i haven't been angry enough lately, and then i kept thinking, and then these people ran for office. we were talking about cory booker and i thought, how do you live through the violence that this was, and then your response in the moments after emancipation is to, in fact,

engage the american democratic project by -- i mean, like, how did we not burn the whole damn thing down? >> it's -- the hardest movie i've ever watched, first of all. i barely made it through amistad, so this was torture. i was sitting through it thinking i have to get up and sleeve. i went to see it by myself, because i didn't want to talk about it. i was so angry on the way home, the same as you, but there's that phrase, the banality of evil. but we in terms the way we discuss, we get only the ban banality but not the evil. this film made you confront the evil the entire time. you started thinking to yourself, was there a single decent person in the south during this period? and it was more than just the south. after putting these human beings through this degrading evil for hundreds of years, there then followed 100 years of terrorism against the same people. how african-americans in the film, one of the hardest things

for me was when the group of african-americans were singing a him, and i'm thinking to myself, how do you even believe in god, let alone worship and praise god in the midst of this horror? and to understand that this is the history we're not getting taught. there is this blase notion of slavery, you know, it was work. no, it was evil! >> i want to play just one -- it's hard to play clips from the film, because there aren't many you can show on television, but one that really goes to this core notion of like the smallest thing, being a space where there could be evil and violence. and i want to see one of the women who was enslaved just wanting soap. >> i got this from mistress shoal. she won't even grant me no soap to clean with. i stink so much, i make myself gag. 500 pounds of cotton day in, day

out! more than any man here. and for that i will be clean! that's all i ask! >> and of course, the violence that is visited on her body in the moments after that is probably the hardest scene to watch in the film. laura, i think part of why i felt so angry is because this is an actual slave narrative, and i kept thinking to myself, how is this the first time that a film has been made from this story of a person who actually lived it. how did it take us this long to do this? >> yeah, it's a real -- it's a real mystery. and i think the thing that this film captures the best is this sense of radical alienation that solomon northup and all the other people he is surrounded by are haunted, they're separate, they're not making connections with one another, they're eating alone. and i think this is something that the slave narrative can capture. that sort of bare bones banality and the life of the repeated,

day-to-day, in and out, doing the same thing, the same kind of horrific work. so the slave narrative often doesn't go into the kind of emotive detail that we expect the brutality, the bloodshed, the horror. there's a distance in most slave narratives. solomon northup's is much more descriptive than a lot, in a sort of -- >> kind of intellectual. >> part because he was free first, and he was outraged and horrified by what he sees. he hasn't seen it since he was a child. so the slave narrative in a lot of ways isn't so conducive to cinematography, because it isn't as explicit. >> i want to come back on that question of being free first, and the way in which that creates a particular kind of space within this film and how it asks us to remember that everybody was free first, when we cop back. customer erin swenson ordered shoes from us online

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i survive! i will not fall into despair. i will offer up my talents to master ford. i'll keep myself hearty until freedom is opportune. >> this idea that he was at one point a free man, but then what we -- i feel like where we go in the film is the recognition that everyone is born free, even those born into slavery. so it's such a distinction initially, but then it becomes not. >> one of the things that answers the earlier question you posed about why didn't they burn this whole thing down is that african-americans were first-hand witnesses to the democratic project. they were there from the beginning. they were there from the earliest european settlement and genocide against the indigenous. they were always witnesses to

this moment. so even in the context of slavery in the colonial period and in the antibellum, black people were organizing for democracy. >> in that moment, solomon noin vats a way to use the water ways to bring the logs. you have this sense of, why would you use your creativity, your talent to enrich this system. but yet, you see there's a humanity in it. he, as a man and as an intellect, takes pride in being able to have these ideas and thoughts, despite the circumscribed situation in which he finds himself. >> i think part of that moment was -- and i think of fredrick douglas' narrative. he hasn't fully become a slave yet. he thinks he's this intermediary figure who's exceptional to the

other slaves. that's how i read that scene. it takes years of coercion and violence and deprivation for him to get to that role, that moment. that's the moment i'm like, he's part of this community. they provide sustenance to him. >> and one of the things that's fascinating about what you just said is the time is so compressed, that you're not aware 12 years has gone by. that's the thing that's so frightening. it's all so mundane and all so much engrained. he's sort of beaten down little by little by little that the time seems to fly by. you think about this elongated period where this man is deprived of the basic sense of who he is. >> i want to ask you very specifically. some of your new work is on people living in this moment who are born into a what we understand as freedom and then experience slavery and are now writing what you call contemporary narratives. it felt like it was worth pointing that out in this moment. >> yeah, i think that this

particular version of the slave narrative is particularly enlightening for understanding modern slavery today. people are tricked the way he is or convinced, coerced into a life that is, in fact, slavery, people who are forced to work, held under threat of violence without the ability to escape for the benefit of other people's financial stability, right. >> so we call it trafficking. but what it is, is slavery. >> it's slavery. i think a lot of people doubt -- because we see people coming across the border to look for work and we say, oh, those folks are illegal immigrants. they chose to come here to work. so who's surprised they were exploited in this way? or they chose to become sex workers. so who's surprised they would be exploited by pimps, right? but solomon chose to go to d.c. to work. he had a legitimate cause to go there. then he was tricked and drugged and taken into slavery.

this is what's happening today for a lot of people. they choose a form of legitimate work and find themselves enslaved. >> and guess what? there's also an economic dimension here we don't have enough time to talk about. but keep in mind solomon is in d.c. in the midst of slavery thinking about his own economic future. so what the movie captures is not just the complexity of being a black person in the midst of the greatest slavery system ever known that doesn't mean that solomon is in d.c. trying to free people. he's trying to get paid. >> and his wife is gone for those weeks. she's working. but also, i think the other economic part was this -- you know, roots is like the rich, fancy white folks over here. but these slave holders are right down in it. they're economically marginal. they're dealing with the cotton going bad. they're dealing with mortgaging their slaves. suddenly you get a sense of what -- like, just how much these people are property when you can take out a mortgage on

these people. >> and it was interesting, too, dealing with the slave owners. there was this range of some people that had something of a conscience about what they're doing. they still did it anyway. the guy that portrays the ambivalence toward the system still separates the mother and the child. so there was this economic imperative. but there was also a sense of entitlement to these people. i can never say it enough, the 11 states withdrew from this country and waged war on the united states to get that. >> i thought it over and over again. we went and we went and we went and fought and sent our children as americans to die to maintain this. go and see this film. it's the best film you'll only ever want to see one time. thank you to laura murphy and joy reid. i know we ran right up against the clock. that is our show for today. thanks to you at home for watching. see you next saturday at 10:00 a.m. eastern. coming up right now, "weekends with alex witt."

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