managed to get things done with the country. please go and get a copy this weekend. the story of my political growing up. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes and tonight, senator ted cruz is doing a fund-raiser in iowa with about 600 of that state's conservatives. tomorrow, he plans to take part in steve king's pheasant hunt in an attempt to sell himself to the true conservatives. but the problem for cruz and for everyone else in the conservative moment these days, is that it's getting hard to tell who really is the true conservative anymore. as the purges that swept through russia after the revolution of 1917, and the guillotine, the

french revolution can attest no one is pure enough that the revolution is over. and true party factions start going after each other. >> the only people we ate more than the romans [ bleep ] people. >> yeah. >> the people splinters. >> we are the people front of judea. >> oh. i thought we were the popular front. >> the tea party finds itself in the purge face of the revolutionary cycle. >> it was an all out attack on ted krez and me. >> ron johnson is being attacked by the tea party allies. >> senator, let me tell you something, if 46 of you people, you republican senators had stood up, shoulder to shoulder, the outcome might have been different. >> tea party darlings lectures

senators. >> and to some in this chamber, it's time for a reality check. >> even paul ryan isn't safe. >> erick erickson retweeted this. quote, it seems paul ryan has successfully, we'll say angered the right. >> i've been saying for years that robust, competitive primaries make for a better political system. >> and now, even grover norquist. creator of the infamous taxpayer protection pledge, being targeted for speaking out against ted cruz' shutdown. >> cruz pusheded the republicans out into traffic and then wandered off. he told them it would be safe, it wasn't. he told them it would work, it didn't. he needs to apologize to all the republicans who he misled. >> that was enough for glenn beck this week to declare all out war on norquist. >> i started to talking to people and they said, oh, no, he

is a really spooky guy. don't take him on while you're taking on george soros. >> the focus affects attention that norquist is an operative for the muslim brotherhood. >> he is the guy responsible for a lot of the muslim brotherhood stuff that goes on in the white house now. >> it's an old smear stemming from the fact norquist's wife is muslim. it's about more than a conspiracy. >> if you're for the constitution of the united states of america, that's our divided line and there are too many in the republican party, so let's clean out our own house first. >> the purges will continue, tea party will realize just as the movements before them have, eventually there will be no one left to purge. joining me now is former congressman david stockman, d k

director of the office of management and budget. the author of the great deformation. and michael, contributing editor to the american conservative, editor of the slur and david, i want to start with you. you are someone who has kind of been in and out of the conservative movement. you were kind of a purgee in certain ways. very famous profile of you in during your time in the reagan administration. you've also tangled with grover norquist. >> this isn't surprising. the republicans are no longer a political party. they're a gang. you have the neocans, tax, social and just. just cans are the fakers. but the point is on the fundamental fiscal issues, they don't agree. the neo want a bigger defense budget. we have a $650 billion war machine. they didn't get the memo the cold war ended. there's a few thousand

terrorists left. by the way, when clinton left the white house, it was 400 billion this today's dollars, so they're arguing we can't do the sequester. we ought to be carrying much more. so that divides the party. then we have the tax problems. just grow your way out of it. we've had 30 years. and then all the republicans have been talking about big spending won't stand. social security, means testing. social security and medicare, a trillion by the year and don't have the prps who are the so-called -- >> the reason -- take your advice and come out insist iing for social security. >> you can go to florida today, people living retirement

communities, 50,000 a year for medicare and social security. >> they earn benefits. >> they didn't earn it. they did not earn it. >> they did earn it. it's part of the -- >> no one earned close to that. >> no, no, they did not earn it in a dollar sense. they earned it in a citizenship sense, that we have all agreed to have this universal benefit and the durability, the best functioning social insurance is universal benefit. everyone draws out. in fact, in fact, right now as we see people go through the -- >> give me a chance. the idea that we're out of the woods on the deficit is wrong. it's real, massive and now. if you take rose's scenario out of the picture, because i created it. you take that out of the picture over the next ten years, you're talking about a trillion a year of deficits and that's if not really goes wrong in the world. you can't live with that. you have to address it.

>> i disagree. you and i respectfully disagree. i think that with all the constraints, the deficits of the united states with the reserve currency is inflation and interest rates, i think neither are an issue in the near or even median turn, i think health care costs are an issue, but i want to ask michael this question. you mentioned the social cans and sort of cast them aside. those, the part of the party that i feel like you know best and they also seem like more and more marginalized. but at the same time, it's still the same base voters, right? still conservative religious folks who make up the base of the republican party. >> that's right. and there's a real sense of frustration and urgency on their part that if we don't do something now, on these issues, we are losing forever. they see the demographic trends. they see the difficulty republicans are having winning on a national level and so that's why there is an all out kind of, they we want for this

all out tactic or sold themselves as a dream if they could stop obama care long after it passed and had been launched. >> why did they sell themselves? >> well, you know, there's an entirely parallel political structure for this type of conservative, right? i mean, they can't exercise power in washington, but there are all these factions in the media in think tanks and elsewhere where you can exercise some power or at least draw a salary. 150 years ago, if you wanted to draw a salary from politics, your party had to be elected then appoint you to something. but now, you can just be one of those people denouncing the sell jouts and that is a permanent position. >> david. >> i'm saying this is a huge problem and in january, obama extended the bush tax cuts to the top half of the population. that's $4 trillion that was taken out of the fiscal equation. it's a huge hole.

why did he do that? the democrats, the progressives, campaigned for years against it. the lower 47% doesn't pay income taxes. romney told us that. >> they pay a lot of taxes. >> i know they don't. i'm not complaining about it. why couldn't we ask the upper half of america to contribute to paying the bills of this country? why did we have to -- >> i agree. >> you were for extending the bush tax cuts. >> no, i wasn't. don't tell me what i was for. >> should have been. okay, but why did your progressive president extend the bush tax cuts, digging on social security and do nothing about the fence? >> wait a second, you said two very contradictory things. first of all, defense spending is coming down. >> as a pinprick. >> it's going to be more than a pinprick come january. second of all -- i agree about the tax cuts, but the extension

of them, the conditions was this entire work of a right that e n uni unified. let me finish. >> then let me -- >> the republican party could not unify on anything except the one thing norquist told them this unify around and we all saw them stand up there on the stage when asked the question about 10-1 on raising taxes, the point against which he was negotiating was a point of maximalism, which was preserving the tax of wealthy people. >> they expire january 1. your president -- >> he is our president. >> he could have said don't send me the extension or i will veto it. the republicans would have ranted and raved, but we would have that $4 trillion this. >> i would love to get the 4 trillion back.

thank you both. coming up, one of the causes i have been pushing is to legalize the smoking of marijuana and apparently, that may be more widespread among the republican house members than i had thought because that's the only explanation i can think for this extreme mellowness -- >> it is remarkable. how mellow they are in defeat. >> that was barney frank joking around on this show the night they voted to open the government, but it's like d.c. was listening. i'll tell you why in just a few minutes. [ coughs, sneezes ]

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that time of night where you weigh in on facebook and twitter. my question is who is next to be purged and for what crimes against conservatives? tweet your answers or post it to facebook.com/allinwithchris. stay tuned. be right back. is a daily game of "what if's". what if my abdominal pain and cramps end our night before it even starts?

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want you to take a look a at this. a pair of pie charts and on the left, the racial breakdown of the population of washington, d.c., which is about half white and half black. now, on the right, you're seeing the racial breakdown of people arrested for marijuana possession in washington, d.c. which as you can see, is nine tenths black and we know based on other available data that the despairty you are seeing here is not based on black people using more marijuana than white people. in fact, black and white people use it at roughly the same rates. black people are not smoking more pot than white people. just getting arrested more for it. a lot more.

that is very likely behind a major political move on marijuana policy this week. the mayor of washington, d.c. announced his support on wednesday for a measure to decriminalize possession of small amounts of pot. right now, possession of less than an ounce is punishable by six months in jail and a $1,000 fine. d.c. lawmakers want to make it more like a traffic ticket. punishable only by a small fine. the measure gets the support of ten of the districts 13 council members and it's expected to get a vote in the next few months, but the news from d.c. is just the latest from one that is about to be one of the most rapidly transformational in all of american politics. polls show that legalizing marijuana is now for the first time, a majority position among americans. it has been legalized in colorado and washington state. the feds made it pretty clear they're not going to interfere with those new laws.

activists are setting their sights on a whole host of other states. joining me now is carl hart, a neuroscientist and author of high price. it challenges everything you know about drugs and society. i was curious to get your reaction to this precisely because having read profiles of you, i believe in inner city miami during the era of the crack epidemic, i grew up in the bronx. i remember banging pots and pans get the drug dealers out. i believe there's a sense of trying to rid the scourge of drugs from the neighborhood as a key policy goal, so i'm curious your reaction to this kind of transformation in washington, d.c. >> well, i think one of the things you said that was important were that people in the community were concerned. problem is, they were just

misled because of the causes of the problems. the causes are as i lay out in the book, things like unemployment, lack of skills, a wide range of things more complicated than blaming a substance like crack-cocaine or marijua marijuana. so, with my book, michelle alexander, a number of of sort of books and readings and attention to this issue, people can't be fooled as readily. i think this is one of the reasons as you nicely point out, that the population are saying we need to do something about locking up all of these black men particularly. >> you just said can't be fooled so easily. there's a whole mythology around drugs, not just marijuana. there's a mythology that you have taken to punturing. one of the things we are told not born out by research? >> when you think of something like crack-cocaine or meth amphetamine, one of the biggest

myths was that one hit of crack, you're addicted. >> i remember hearing it all throughout elementary school. >> exactly. that's just not true. in the laboratory, we don't see that. nor do we see in the data. the vast majority of data of users do so without a problem. they are not addicted. the same is true for meth amphetamine, where now the myths are being transferred to meth amphetami amphetamine. when you have a small number of people using a drug and the majority of the people in the population don't use the drug, you can say incredible things about that drug and be believed. today, you can't say those things about marijuana because nearly half the population has used marijuana, but in 1937, you certainly could say those things about marijuana and be believed. >> so, one of the things that comes from your book is that from the research you've done, that we we understand the crack

epidemic, the drug is the source. like this virus that gets injected into a community and it spreads and causes the symptoms and you've, your research has led you to be very skeptical about that. >> absolutely. because when you simply look at the fact of the majority of people who use crack-cocaine pay taxes, go to work and so forth, you can't blame crack-cocaine. it requires us to look deeper and try and figure out what's the major sort of problem these people are facing and when you do that, it's clear. they have no skills. they have no sort of jobs. a wide range of things. they have no alternatives. a wide range of things, but it requires you to dig more deeply than we'd like to when we have these political discussions. >> it's almost as if we'd been told drug addictions, the

scourge and cycle of drugs is what causes poverty and your research suggests poverty is the other direction. poverty that conditions people to be addicted. thank you so much for your time tonight. i really appreciate it. >> thank you for having me. >> coming up. >> i was with my family. and my home. now you tell me all is lost. don't know who i am, that's the way to survive? well, i don't want to survive. i want to live. >> playing the lead role. absolutely breathtaking new film based on the true story of a free man kidnapped and sold into slavery. he will be my guest.

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thought i told you to -- >> these have all been replaced. >> didn't i tell you to get -- >> sure i did. i thought you knowed something. >> if there's something wrong, it's wrong with the instruction. >> you damn black bastard, strip

your clothes. strip. >> i will not. >> 12 years a slave, a powerful film about america's quote peculiar institution. few wanted to tackle the brutality about the free black man from the north who was trapped into slavery. it opened on just 19 screens in the country, pulling in close to a million dollars. a remarkable first screen performance showing there is a lot of pent up demand. today, it opened to roughly 100 theatres and is quickly one of the most talked about film in years. an instant american classic. joining me now is the man who transformed himself into the lead role in the film. a great pleasure to have you here.

they have different physicalties, in the telling of the tale of this man, you go from being a free man to a slave. how did you play that transformation? >> i suppose some is instinct. one of the things i was fortunate to have was this extraordinary book. he details his psychological journey and i felt as i was reading the block, that i became totally e immersed in this story. it sort of felt natural to over the course of that time to find

different sort of points of his restrain on his physicality. he was a real battle for his mind. >> there's a tremendous amount of restraint that he has to constantly show that you do an amazing job of portraying the film, of hiding his true nature so that he is not found out so that he doesn't further endanger himself. >> yeah. you know, it's one of the most extraordinary things about the story is that because it's kind of this first person narrative, you are able to get a real understanding from really inside the slave experience, which is not something i've seen on film before and that allows you to see the real details that you wouldn't be aware of without somebody being able to tell you this. call out over 160 years to tell you this was the experience. the ideas of how complicated getting a piece of paper and a

pen are. how long that can take. >> yes. >> some of the ramifications of one of the characters just getting a bar of soap, you wouldn't know those things if you just looked at the period objectively. but if you're inside the story with solomon -- >> women are front and center in this film in a way that i think are often obscure at times when talking about these stories and the relationship you have to women who are slaves and the very complicated relationship between them and mast erers and themselves. there's a sense in which the title characters mas cue lenity has been robbed from him and he cannot get it back. >> well, there's different forms i suppose and there's the one i guess it's the traditional one that starts with kind of you know the sort of this kind of a wonderful kind of set up with

his family, his wife and his children and he enjoys the freedom and privileges that we all do, then he slips into a place where that is absolutely taken from him. he's no longer a person with anything and of course, this is kind of crushing to his sense of masculinity, but he also finds different ways of addressing that in a way. this is so much about a person's psychology and sanity and his ways of resistance, even survival becomes defiance at a certain point and that is the kind of incredible journey that he goes through. >> what was the biggest psychological discovery you made about the interior life of someone in this situation while you were doing the film? >> i think that there were so many discoveries. it's sort of hard to answer. it was, but i felt there was something about the different kind of worlds and universes within the plantations.

solomon was on three different plantations and i always just thought of slavery as one, but it was so interesting to me that the differences on the plantations where there was timber, sugar cane, picking cotton, they're so huge and affect the nature of what is happening on those plantations affect everything that goes on there. >> and the peties of that come through. you should absolutely go see it. it is out in theatres now. thank you. >> thank you. >> we will be right back with click 3. the american dream is of a better future,

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first, the three awesomest thipgs on the internet. the inescapable truth, the 2016 presidential race is really underway. ted cruz is in iowa and in order to provide voters with moring information, he did a q and a which included this nugget. do you have a favorite movie? answer. the princess bride. cruz didn't say why, but maybe because it was directed by rob rheiner or he has an affinity for -- all we know is that everyone reacted with the response you would expect. tweet after tweet were quick to point out how inconceivable his answer was, but since it is a classic, i think this is the proper response. >> i do not think what you think it is. >> it's a miracle we didn't get any princess bride dialogue during the fake filibustefilibu.

second, a film maker works almost exclusively in stop motion. he directed a short that's been known in film circles as one of the most unique of the day. one of his films called the deep uses various common place objects to create a deep sea universe. it was made in 2010, but until now, it has not been available for the public to view. now, the full 90-second film is up to view on his page and serves a great reminder of creativity. the third, solidarity through art. these are troubling times for the members of the lgbt in russia. one group of artists has put together a statement of unity and defiance. illustrators wrote we hope you will all share and post these illustrations and help make this a better world to live in. the illustrations created for the gallery are powerful in

their own ways. others are defiant in the face of oppression and all are politically provocative, but my favorite is this one from paul glow. if you ask me, stahlen should be wearing suspenders all the time. we'll be right back. avo: the volkswagen "sign then drive" sales event is back. which means it's never been easier to get a new passat, awarded j.d. power's most appealing midsize car, two years in a row. and right now you can drive one home for practically just your signature.

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then i read an article about a study that looked at the long term health benefits of taking multivitamins. they used centrum silver for the study... so i guess my wife was right. [ male announcer ] centrum. always your most complete. michael hayden was defending himself today saying he did not

in fact criticize the obama administration. why the former spy chief felt compelled to say this is fascinating. strangers on the train, specifically on a train outside philadelphia. these weren't just any old strangers. one man was the previously mentioned michael hayden talking on the phone on background to reporters about the obama administration and he is overheard by tom matsy, who worked for moveon.org. former nsa spy boss behind me blabbing on background as a former senior administration official. sounds defensive. former nsa spy boss just ended last of handful of interviews bashing. phone ringing, i think the jig is up. maybe somebody's telling them i'm here. do i hide? hayden approacheded and said would you like a real interview? he replied, i'm not a reporter. his reply, everybody's a

reporter. later issues a statement, had a nice chat with my fellow pittsburgher. very difficult issues. aside of political guidance, too, that limited the things i did when i was director of nsa. it wasn't a criticism. this is of course a larger phenomenon. the surveillance can no longer protect itself from being surveilled and in the broader sense, we know this to be true. edward snowden showed that. in the end, watchers are having a hard time being escaped being watched. joining me now is tom, the current ceo of -- tom, that conversation that happened with him when he came over, what did he say? >> just like you said it, chris. he said would you like a real interview? i said i'm not a real journalist. he said everybody's a real journalist, then he sad sat down and we had a conversation. it was interesting for sure.

we talked about the fourth amendment. warrantless wiretapping, surveilling foreign leaders, the kind of spying on our allies. interesting part about the conversation is he talked about kind of the what i would describe as overreaches of the last ten plus years as a pendulum and he said these things kind of swing back and forth. there are times when you know, i'm paraphrasing now, there's more of this and there's less of this. by this, i mean the spying. i thought that was an interesting perspective. i'm not sure i disagree with him. i think we'll look back on this as kind of a dark period in our history. i assume with all the spying, much like the -- japanese americans in world war ii. >> one of the things i found fascinating, was not only you have this guy who was the chief spy in america who doesn't

practice enough off set to keep his off record phone conversations fw fr being tweeted on a train, but also it was a perfect curtain pulled back on the way d.c. journalism works. it's just costless for anyone to get on the phone and give these interviews and not have to attach their name to it. >> that's an excellent point. first focus on what he was saying. don't use my name if you quote me, i am quote, use this moniker. former senior administration official. he was not a member of the obama administration. >> right. >> he was replaced by leon panetta. >> good point. if anyone read that, they would come away with the conclusion, this was someone who was inside now bashing the administration. >> yes, that's right. which is even bigger politics in some ways.

now, of course, yes, he was the head of the cia for a couple of days. literally days after president obama was formally sworn in, but it was announced he was going to be replaced by panetta 15 days before the first inauguration of president obama. so, i think it's a real reach to say he was a member of the obama administration. >> i'm curious also as someone who was very active in organizing on the fight defensive security in the antiwar movement and with move on. you talk about this pendulum. there's going to be this big rally tomorrow in washington, d.c. how do you as an organizer, a former organizer, if you ever become a former organizer, understand how you kind of create mass mobilization around an issue that can seem as abstract as some office somewhere might be reading some stray e-mail of mine. >> well, it's hard work. i think the first thing is you can't do it alone. first obligation of any

organizer is to bring other people into the movement to get other people involve. ed. >> and it's through that sort of building of community, bringing people together, forming kind of a coalitions and that you build power eventually. that's the basics of organizing. >> do you think that we're going to see more of this? i think the line he said about everyone's a reporter is deeply true in a certain sense. 20 years ago, this overheard conversation would have been an awesome story that you got to tell at a bar. now, it's on the "today" show the next day and there's a degree to which everyone is listening to everyone else is increasingly a baseline truth of american life. >> yeah and it's interesting. i would have to ask is that are you returning to something? are we moving towards something? i think there was always time when you know, things were more private, but also times in our

history when we were more in communities than we've been in recent decades. you know, you didn't gossip about people because there was accountability. there was none of this kind of bs an -- >> the town square is social media. thank you so much for your time. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back. but they didn't fit. customer's not happy, i'm not happy. sales go down, i'm not happy. merch comes back, i'm not happy. use ups. they make returns easy. unhappy customer becomes happy customer. then, repeat customer. easy returns, i'm happy. repeat customers, i'm happy. sales go up, i'm happy. i ordered another pair. i'm happy. (both) i'm happy. i'm happy. happy. happy. happy. happy. happy happy. i love logistics.

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it's too soon to call it a diplomatic crisis, but there is

some big news. germany and france have proposed -- intelligence after a new revelations unfolding of several problems the u.s. has been spying on world leaders and world leaders among is countries. ange angela merkel has accused the u.s. of drops in on her phone conversations. jay carney said the president assured the chancellor the president of the united states is not monitoring and will not monitor the communications of the chancellor. but that nondenial denial declined to say the u.s. has never done it. the latest whistleblower shows the national security agency monitored the phone conversations of 35 world leaders after being given the numbers by an official. this comes on the eve of a rally against the mass surveillance stake in washington, d.c. organized by a cross coalition calling themselves stop watching us.

>> every american is at risk for getting caught up in the nsa including average citizens not suspected of a crime. >> we have been been misled. >> does the nsa collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of americans? >> no, sir. >> joining me now, roanen, a former lawyer, special adviser to secretary of state in the obama administration. he'll be hosting his own show early next year. good to see you. national security and human rights director, nbc news terrorism analyst, roger cressey, member of the national security staff and senior vice president at alex hamilton. it seems like there have been two acts to the snowden revelations. in the first, it was largely about domestic surveillance and largely a series of revelations that indicated the spread was far greater than we had been led to believe and deeply

problematic from a constitutional perspective. the most resent rounds have focused on foreign. there are people saying, why is this a problem? what threat to liberty is it? there is no constitutional protection for merkel. this is what we want for our surveillance agencies to do is to go out and get foreign intelligence about other part of the world. >> right. countries have always of course spied on each other whether friend or foe. but this is quite different. to be spying on the personal cell phones of world leaders of our allied nations and i would actually argue that it hurts us in the war against terrorism because we rely on our other partner countries to help us in that fight and to erode the trust in that kind of way by monitoring the personal devices of world leaders, can you imagine if someone monitored

obama's personal blackberry or that of his children? it would be, they would be prosecuted if they were here in the u.s. >> well, but is it, is the problem the activity or the disclosure of the activity? >> that is an excellent distinction to draw. my own experience, i was in this administration when wikileaks hit. we divided into 24 hours on a task force to sort through the documents. i saw the damage while it was not direct, it was real to some of those relationships that we were navigating diplomatically and the thing that caused the damage was the lack of disclosure, not the policies themselves more often than not. i think that's the case here. we need a come to jesus moment in these relationships where we explain what's off limits and what's not and there's an easy precedent for that. we have the five eyes, that could be expanded at a little cost. >> roger, it seems to beg a

belief that the personal cell phone of angela merkel is being tapped by the nsa and also, the notion that u.s. government officials engaged in diplomatic activities are also working to get the phone numbers of foreign officials so they can then be targeted by the nsa. that suggests a level of duplicity and espionage going on in our routine engagements, that if i were somewhere else in the world, i would be angry about it. >> clarification, i'm no longer working for allen. when i talk about snowden, i talk about him from my own personal view. in my view, that's a traitor, not a patriot. but that's a separate conversation for another day. it should come as a shock that information is shared between departments and sometimes, it might include e-mails and phone numbers et cetera. on the intelligence services,

england and france that there is spying going on amongst us. there are rules of the road right now, issues that foreign intelligence services always spy on each other. couple of years ago, the department of defense said there were over 100 foreign intelligence services actively trying to penetrate the network. i got a pretty good idea about who our adversaries might be, so that means we have a friends and family problem as well. this just means we try and gather information on each other. >> there is a distinction here. the internet is routed through america. the internet through america and basically, the architecture that runs through america, the u.s. has to corner role it plays in the national, in the sort of international informational -- that is going to be questioned at some point because how can

people trust that the u.s. isn't essentially abusing that central role. >> that's usually significant. i would also point out that public opinion within the united states is influnable and on the ground in europe is influential. while it is true as our friend here has said, as president obama has said when met with criticism earlier in the summer, it's happened for a long time. however, around these old school surveillance practices have changed radically. 60% of young americans think these leaks were a good thing, that they were in the public interest. similarly, we're seeing more and more of them. the realities are these leaks are going to happen more and more and there's just less toleran tolerance. that will mean leadership here and abroad is adapting and is going to call for changes. >> jesalyn, you were in the

video, you met edward snowden in moscow and have been involved with other whistle blowers. do you think there's a distinction in how we think about this activity, domestic surveillance and international? what is the whistleblower rationale for letting a foreign government know that the u.s. is spying on them? >> because the u.s. is violating, nsa is violating not only domestic laws like the patriot act, but also foreign domestic laws like the foreign intelligence surveillance act, but in the case of spying on other world leaders personally, the internationals on political and civil rights to which the u.s. is a signatory. obviously, if people were listen ing in on obama's personal device, i think he would take um bridge of that. i think these leaks are

obviously these disclosures are incredibly important. we're having not only a domestic conversation, but a worldwide conversation in the european parliament just -- >> right. yeah, there's going to be some international action and one of the complaints from the french is that we are spying on french citizens and this seems a crucial distinction. it's different if we are listening in on the armed forces or intelligence apparatus of some other country. it's a different thing if just every citizen of a country is getting sucked up in our surveillance activities. >> it's not like we're listening in on every conversation. this is where the debate where snowden released these documents, has gone off the rails. they do not spend their day listening in on every inane conversation going on around