story this -- eh, and awkward. florida if you did not exist some creep would invent you. i swear. that does it for us tonight. thank you for being with us. now time for "up late" with alec baldwin. good night. thank you, rachel. with less than three months for president obama and congress to avoid yet another government shutdown tonight i want to looking at the dysfunctional state of our current politics. how we got here. how things used to be. who the future leaders of both parties may be. right now it is hard to imagine any democratic leader capable of dealing with what passes for republican leadership. >> we went through a very tough period. i told my colleagues the other day, we fought the fight. we didn't win. we live off to fight another day. and the fact is -- that we are going to -- issues of funding the government. january 15th. are going to have the debt ceiling. we will deal with again. >> for my first guest tonight i want to washington to find one

levelheaded, clear-eyed thinker that can explain the state of the capital without bombast, laying out the facts coolly and dispassionately. he wasn't around so i talked to chris matthews instead. chris has lived this stuff on the inside as a speech writer for president jimmy carter, and aide to tip o'neill. in his book "tip and the gipper" chris talks about the battles fought with reagan and ask him how politics changed since then and why and what is good or better about politic tuesday. i watched "hardball" forever. as i told chris after we spoke, i will watch more after hearing what he had to say and our discussion. chris matthews tonight and "up late." ♪ ♪ >> how do you think obama played

his cards during the shutdown? >> correctly. because he didn't talk. it's like ike never talked about berlin. he said the russians can talk all they want. i am staying. i am not going to talk, not going to negotiate it, i'm staying. that doesn't always work. there is something with people in life, i do believe in luck, and i believe obama is a lucky guy. if i was a pundit, i better be careful. he does pull the rabbit out of the hat. when he won re-election he was pulling the rabbit out of the hat. when he won the first african-american president, and with the name hussein? and for the whole thing, american people no matter what we say about the tea party, birthers, the birther thing, the astounding fact is the dog that hasn't bashrked, vast majority american people, including conservatives accept weed have an african-american family in the white house, beautiful first lady, beautiful african-american

kids. totally at home in our lives, we completely accept it. american people in the polling voted more for obama than they said so in the polls. more people wanted a black president than were welling to admit it. so i am happy about this country. we are driven by the noise from the right. i would say that to the people on right who are the hottest people politically. i say, you want a one party state. you want to dominate american politics. the right-wing dictates. that is not going to happen. one or two years, johnson had one or two years, roosevelt, two or three years. it always comes back to the middle. to say we will rule, turn into a right-wing country. doesn't happen. >> i am of the opinion. i don't feel this way that strongly or feel about it every minute of every day. i often think if everybody who was in the -- punditocracy, everybody on tv analyzing politics if all their tv shows went off the air tomorrow, if someone dropped the pundit bomb, the equivalent of the neutron bomb, they were gone, would it make any difference in the political arena? how do you describe what you do

right now? >> what i do -- remember afternoon newspaper? the philly bulletin. used to deliver it. philadelphia bulletin was cable news. you had the news basically. sometime in the afternoon, unfortunately after the stocks were still going, you get the paper, 3:00. deliver, 4:30. my dad would get it on the train. take it coming home from philly. what is the afternoon newspaper. it wasn't news. it was columns. kilpatrick, people like that william f. buckley. on the way home on the train. like new yorker cartoon, everybody reads the bulletin. all reading the same. come home with opinion. you want an opinion on it. you want to hear your opinion. the other opinion if you are smart. that's digestion. what we offer. >> what matters? what doesn't matter? >> the fight between left and right generally. and the sets of issues. but also a cultural fight. this whole thing, obama care. it is not about that. about fight from the right.

it's getting hotter all the time. >> has doing that job become more difficult the more and more, i would assume, it has become more partisan, people are more full of b.s. quite frankly. >> you know. >> every show is different. all our producers know our job is -- is -- heat seeking. i admit it. go for the heat. fact driven. do both. go for the he. can't make it boring. driven by facts. we don't have a correction page like "the new york times." if we get a fact wrong. we are being dishonest and incompa tent. >> last night i want to an event. i ran into sally quinn. >> my buddy. >> i should ask you about the difference between public chris, private chris. private chris is very different from public chris. private chris doesn't commandeer the dinner conversation, he is very shy, he is very quiet. >> that's true. i think i am more a listener. but people that have known me 40 years, i was in the peace corps

in africa. when you are in the peace corps, you are out there alone with guys. talking about everything. smoking a cigarette. whatever you are smoking, drinking, talking about everything. they all said my greatest compliment, true for everybody is you haven't changed. so that part doesn't change. the who i am. this iconic, eclectic, hard to figure, liberal on most issues, war, race, good on those things, not a gut liberal. he agrees with all the good stuff. fights for it. he has the skepticism. >> about what primarily? >> i am for example, i will take issues, i am not going to hold a vigil against capital punishment. i'm not going to kill myself for that. i got other causes. or, i know why immigration is still a problem in this country. illegal immigration. bothers people i should. you should force the law or not have the law. they have didn't whole thing, talking about in '86. didn't enforce it. do it. it's great.

have people, citizenship, guy, woman, working here, 20, 30 years, as american as hell, love the country. salute the flag, emotional about it. >> they're american every way. >> i'm not saying, itch the nbc cameras are working tomorrow night racing across the border, don't tell me you solved the problem. re-created it. tell me we well have a progressive system of immigration, come in the country officially. given a card. you work at decent wage. minute you get here. a flow of assimilation that makes sense. don't be embarrassed -- >> you say. >> liberals will say, give a path to citizenship. then stop the conversation. that's what they want. democrats want votes. they think everyone coming across is a democrat. >> when you say, you are basically the same guy, you haven't changed. assuming your opinions have changed. how would you say? give me examples of how your political opinions have changed? >> gay rights. gay marriage. >> not on the board when you started? >> no. i was like, we grew up.

i grew up thinking, this is another situation, not like my situation. it's different. these people are different. i think, one great thing is -- like everybody else, a lot of people, in your family, you work with. just a question of getting to know people. >> live and let live. >> realizing it is not any more than being a straight guy, being a gay guy is not your whole life. most of your life you are working, doing other things, reading the paper, care about politics. sex isn't everything. orientation isn't everything. people will philosophically disagree. you get used to the fact that people have different. a great line in the movie "boys in the band" the guy, at the end of the movie, one of the guys serious guy would go to church at night put everything together, he said, when my dad died in my arms he said, i don't understand it, i never will. like most of life is a mystery. sex is a mystery. we don't create our own sex drives. nobody does. so, i thought it through. i have come a long way.

i think i am totally for equality. by the way, while i have been rethinking it, i have been active enough in human rights campaign, for 15, 20 years, giving speeches, fighting for their rights, their decisions. and, in philadelphia, boston, l.a., i always, mced so many events. and identified with the cause. my own evolution has been like a lot of people's. what's funny. hillary and i have been a tussle or two, when i am with her i think she is great as a person. giggle, laugh, she is very, hope this doesn't offend any body. there is a part of her that is very girlish, very youthful. >> playful. >> playful. that's right. safe. better put. but, she and i, she was a goldwater girl. i was for goldwater. libertarian thing apeld pealed you. get rid of government. live our own lives like cowboys whuc who didn't love that idea? we were going to be free, free of big parents. start to realize like my dad

would say, we need social security because a lot of people, because of their, inability, or whatever, or their habits don't save any money. so when they're 65 they're broke. you want them on well fare? better encourage them, make them save all through their life by contributing to social security. things like that. and civil rights. if we had followed the goldwater philosophy of making civil rights, requiring a constitutional amendment for public accommodations for not being able to, deny admission to your store or hotel or gas station men's room. and it never would have happened. so, i don't look to say, the ends justify the means. in the case we had a liberal supreme court. they said interstate commerce clause. okay. you can move past the law. roberts approved obama care. some times you have to bend a little with the times. life with crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis is a daily game of "what if's". what if my abdominal pain and cramps come back? what if the plane gets delayed? what if i can't hide my symptoms?

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in the book, naturally all of us look back on our youth and the early parts of our careers through a kind of golden filter. and i think that that's unavoidable, probably a good thing. >> we all have our -- by the way your 20s are the great 20s. no matter when they were. >> 30s, even 40s. those were golden years. >> here's, i kept a journal. just thought of writing a book when i worked for tip. his top guy against reagan. every minute of my life. all i thought about. when i missed nostalgia, i felt two big irish guys fighting it out. my idea of politics. i miss the two irish guys fight it out, who thought they disagreed. but could deal. they could deal. >> gentlemen. we will drink a toast to the president of the united states. >> tip once said to, how do you like, before he died, how do you like the new guys? he said, you know what people are better, the system is worse. new people are more educated, more honest, not stealing money out the back door. >> not getting anywhere.

>> they don't know how to deal with each other. >> when i say looking back, it being through a golden filter, was it really more bipartisan? it seemed that way? >> every day -- donnybrook. i was going to call it donnybrook. wait a minute, that is not interesting. always fighting. what's interesting, these guys did deal with social security. did honor a honeymoon. got together on tax reform. and they also -- you know, basically that was northern ireland secretly. began the good friday talks. the two guys did it. tip wrote reagan and said i will never tell this to anybody. would you got to thatcher. we have to move. thatcher had been bombed at the party conference. didn't like the i.r.a. tip didn't like the i.r.a. you know i know from our background. you have to deal with these people. you had to deal with gerry adams, he is part of the problem. one of the stories. i didn't know how tip want to

moscow in '85, told goerbachev s coming. we are behind him. believe him this guy wants to get rid of nuclear weapons. he said that. backed him up. that kind of stuff is unimaginable. >> what is unimaginable. we were prepping for this show. how the section on page 73, 74, tip o'neill going to reagan's hospital room. >> i was stunned by the story when i found it. the reagan guy told me. the only guy in the room. tip came in, down on bethennyot. this was great, jim baker, mrs. reagan, a friend of moon nine n. they understood the need for the first guy in to be tip. he comes in. kneels down. holds reagan's two hand. they pray together. these two old irish guys, from the old testament, fascinating in itself. parade the 23rd psalm, "the lord is my shepherd" i checked with

susan. they definitely knew that one. we are sure on that one. some of the other family members. must have been our father. kissed him on the forehead. and, reagan, i got from, he apparently said according to tip "thanks for coming, tip." >> from what i can tell, from the book, you thought reagan was a good president. you rank him high. >> in the end i think he is going to make the big top 12, top 10. just a fact. because -- he was able. >> based on facts or based on -- >> i think just national morale. the country was through nixon. johnson, nixon, carter, ford. tip used to say all the disasters in a row. the country is dying for a hero. he had a way of connecting. he didn't fighten wor ein world. william holden, we won the war, a little swaergger, we are good guys. did it at normandy, around the

world, brought back morale, we will win this fight. america is back. reagan believed in the hollywood ending. he convinced gorbachev of the hollywood ending how he ended the cold war. one guy's belief in what we can do, and americans, and the other guy, they probably can. >> you worked with carter? >> different guy than reagan. >> do you think carter got a bad rap? >> carter was right about everything. the irony. he was a pacifist. carter, obama is a dove, no pacifist. he can use the military. >> you think carter was a dove. >> hurt him a lot. >> were you suspicious at all about the hostage deal towards the end? >> we all talked about it. to our surprise. we dent know what was going on. don't think they had that much influence. except -- we were just, let me tell you, we were on the plane. and we were on marine 1, the helicopter. i was there. and i mean some times i feel

like, zealot, i was there, as we got the word we lost out of seattle. the chief speech writer went up to carter, not the easiest to kid with. well, mr. president, you finally have your stump speech down. the rose garden strategy hasn't been campaigning. he learned to give the speech he was giving. wonderful place to give the speech, airport hangar, echoing, carter was great. he had the crowd with him. 10,000 people with him. he comes back, tells jody powell, what a great show we just put on. then they tell him. on the phone. you lost by ten. you are done. and carter, you know, collapses, who wouldn't? and we went back on the plane. and the staff section trying to figure out what he should say in the morning. jody powell was unbelievable, the soldiers, he was the soldier, he had been with him from the beginning. we got to come up with something that saves the senate and house. say something in the morning that takes the edge off. >> did he? he tried to. it is nuance, trying to say things unifying the country. take some of the heat against

him off. at that point, people were so angry. hostage crisis. they felt humiliated. >> do you think carter, don't want to beat this to death. i find this fascinating. people reflexively backhand and dismiss him. i think is terrible. the one thing i do think, he lacked sef eed self awareness. was he aware of how he was coming across. look who succeeds him, so velvety and so smooth from the character. >> a lot, attribute to their background. you don't want a small business guy elected president. he is used to doing it all himself. reagan was corporate. director, scriptwriter, pr guy. he knew he, first thing he knew, he needed jim baker, a washington guy. he needed what he didn't have. i'm not sure obama is as aware of who he is and what his limitations are. first thing you want from a president, an awareness of what he isn't. he needs experts. i think the only time you see president obama show that is with -- needed a particular fed chairman, larry.

and he just needed, because he didn't understand economics. he needed to know something. i took economics in school. the one thing i will never read. i have to force feed me to learn that. but, jimmy carter -- was his own show. he would, he would, his domestic policy guy would give him an 80 page decision, he would sit there in the morning. what do they call the new information agency, combined cultural affairs of state with isa. he was an engineer. a bull goes into a bull ring. always finds the place in the bull ring where he is comfortable. so the matador has to work that. every tomb yime you get a job y turn into your job. i would turn it into communications job, speeches, pr, image. other guys, carter dent tuidn't it. into an engineering job. how many decisions, how can i work this, reorganize.

>> reagan turned to great communicator. the number one job of the president. tip who worked against him would say, i come back to the meeting all he had was 3 x 5 cards. i dug up something, where reagan was told on the phone, calling tip, congratulate him on his 70th birthday. it said, say, hi pal, happy birthday. and it's all scripted. he knew he needed script writers. most politicians would say is an insult. ♪ this is the quicksilver cash back card from capital one. it's not the "juggle a bunch of rotating categories" card. it's not the "sign up for rewards each quarter" card. it's the no-games, no-messing-'round, no-earning-limit-having, do-i-look-like-i'm-joking, turbo-boosting, heavyweight-champion- of-the-world cash back card. this is the quicksilver cash back card from capital one. unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase, everywhere, every damn day. now, tell me, what's in your wallet? every damn day.

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>> you are catholic, correct? >> all the way. >> i want to ask you what do you think of the state of the

church, having a new pope now? >> francis is great. because, you know, louis xiii, on capitalism, talked about the short comings of capitalism, evils capitalism could bring. it talked about the need for child labor laws, the need for a -- a social security system, the need for an income tax, fair income, progressive tax, talked about all the things that came out of the new freedom, later on fdr. way ahead of its time. and i think -- dorothy day, the catholic worker, sort of liberal left wing catholics, i think the focus on poverty that, that francis has -- has done has allowed a unity of thinking in the katrina le the katrina locatholic church. that's the debate. it is not about abortion, it is what the constitution should be. in a free country where do you

let decisions be made. it is not morality of abortion. even nancy pelosi will say it is not about my religious beliefs. >> so many people will not allow that. i thought of peggy newnan, about a talk show, thinking about doing mahr, and "politically incorrect." you can't have it both ways, alec. by that i was saying, they won't allow you to say that -- pro, pro, pro-lifers won't allow you to say that i don't want to impose my opinion on other people. i would counsel if a child of mine was pregnant i would counsel them and say have the baby. >> there is so much conflict. something, the conflict comes in here. i said to people. i have done this with bishops. they get really mad. okay, you don't like patrick kennedy's view in rhode island on abortion rights, what should be the pun,meishment for having

abortion, tell me what the law should be? they freak out. they don't want to be in the position saying a woman should pay a $20 fine or go to prison for 20 months or 20 years. they call it murder. they would never establish a murder verdict. a sentencing, death. they would never put a woman in jail for a week or year. so, i am just saying, not to knock them. i understand a doctrinal relationship. nobody has quite figured it out. my view is if you cannot assign a punishment to having an abortion, stop saying you are pro-life in the sense of the law. the law says it is up to the woman. not a criminal offense. and say, well, just blame the doctor. isn't that convenient? that won't stop abortion. that will mean you go to the kid who flunked out of med school the second year. that is what will happen. >> then we will see married clergy long before we see female clergy. he said we will never see female clergy. looking at the last supper there were no women at the table. >> why do lawyers hire lawyers? they're lawyers.

why do men hire men? they're men. >> what is the most troubling domestically and in foreign policy, in your mind? >> let me start, economics, race, always, but i will talk about economics. marx argued because of productivity, eventually we would produce more than we needed. therefore, we wouldn't need everybody working. so we could produce a car faster, electronic equipment faster. now you bring on people, part time. bring them, you won't make them permanent staff. in our business. everything to avoid a lifetime commitment to any worker. that becomes a prized thing. to have a retirement plan, a company that will look out for you. like we had with g.e., uaw, all the years and the oil companies. that's all about that. okay. so what's that do to the american dream? it means that you have to be --

>> was that the american dream? >> it was to go work in a plant. one guy in the family worked. the wife didn't have to work. bringing home enough. they could go to local, state college. get a good education for their kids. take a couple weeks vacation, atlantic city, go to montreal or something. their life was good. end up going to europe when they retire for vacation. a good life. i get thrilled thinking how it is for regular people to look at what i described. it is happiness. but can you do that in a society where productivity, productivity, to the point where you don't need everybody working. so really good kids are coming out of school today, my kids, a lot of them are coming out, and not just actors, it's been tricky. people in all kind of fields. finance. >> a lock for 20 years. >> guaranteed safety. safety net, i'm a lawyer, got nothing to worry about. my mother loves me. father loves me. i'm going to make a lot of money. no more guarantees. what is that like, 20, 30 years, when more and more generations,

build up unloike their parents. marx, right, i believe in absolute freedom, is marx right about the economics? is there something there, productivity. will our great success in productivity be our problem? then dupe we have to think about definitions of work. the things, social enterprise, where kids come out of school. go to a place like harvard. how to run ngos, go to haiti, help people. things we would not kid work. are going to have to be called work. really smart people want to do those things. they don't want to be money grubbers. they want to do good things for society. getting into the question, what work is. acting? is that work. all that stuff is work. >> have you seen my films? >> i have seen them, they're great. we have to figure how to deal with the marxist challenge. we are lucky. we have markets. make more cars, sell them to europe. make more cars, sell them to mexico. in mexico there is a million vws

down there riding around. an interesting question. some one will say, matthews the marxist. pay attention to what i said. not the word. >> one last, last question. >> are you surprised by my answer on that? >> i am, actually. the real time bomb if you pick an economic issue, is this issue of pensions in society. we told people we would fund this to take care of them. the point is, we are realizing that we can't. >> 401(k)s. >> the mechanisms we put in place to do so are falling apart. if we don't what happens? we are damned if we do or don't. >> w says we'll get rid of the pensions. what we will have is social security based invested in the stock market. you can have a separate plan. suppose the american people had gone through this roller coaster of checking their, their, their social security benefit plan, based on the market. they would have gone crazy. they would be watching cnbc

every night with a gun. oh, jesus what am i doing here? >> it would have been the ninth circle of hell. so who will lead the two parties into the future and out of whatever circle of hell we are in now? republicans are looking to next month's election in new jersey to gauge chris christie's viability as the a 2016 presidential candidate if he can win over the tea party. democrats are looking at new york for their future, although as far as new york governor andrew cuomo is concerned, they're looking too hard at hillary clinton and not enough at other possible candidates like new york governor andrew cuomo. i will talk to someone who has covered all these people up close, up next. across america people are taking charge

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>> my next guest is michael powell, covered president obama and three people mentioned as obama's possible successors, hillary clinton, governor andrew cuomo, and governor chris christie. christie is expected to win re-election next month thanks to the balancing act covering a blue state. i sat down with michael to ask if christie can keep up the act without ticking off the tea party and blowing his shot at the white house. assume christie will run. and not have to run for governor again. might not have to. it is assumed he will seek national office. you have written some -- some characterizations of christie, you refer to his pathologic candor to use your words. i am wondering how do you think christie, his persona will play on a national level? >> i think he has the same strength and weakness that every republican does right now who

has national aspirations right? he wants to -- in many respects, i think he could be a very strong candidaten a general election. because he has enough policies that, that bow toward the center, right, the center of political spectrum. at the same time that he, you know, also bows towards the right. but not enough. these days, when you look at what is happening in washington, it seems to me, that what you see is, you know sort of extreme little mu litmus tests. can you be roolight of right of right in the republican party. i think that its the big challenge. he has criticized the republicans right now in, or, he has criticized the republicans in washington for their pushing the debt limit and the sort of thing right to the wall. >> the people who say that they want to be in public life to try to run the government and then their solution to doing that is to not speak to each other, not

work with each other, and shut our government down. that is a failure. >> how does that play when he has to go down to south carolina? when he has the to go to florida? when he has to go to georgia? i think that's what is weighing on his mind. and is constantly -- >> when he speaks to the right he is speaking to a national constituency. >> absolutely. >> there is no real -- i never thought there was a really strong right-wing fabric in new jersey itself. when he -- he is speaking to a national audience. >> i think he is, yes. to the extent that it exists in, in new jersey, they're going to vote for him. he is the only show in town. he doesn't have to worry about the right-wing there. what he does have to worry about is the right wing if he wants to run for president. >> if he does run for president -- and -- and -- even as he is running now, for re-election as governor of new jersey. he talked about the come back, in the state of new jersey. how do you evaluate christie's

comeback. how do you evaluate new jersey's comeback? >> i would say it is a strange comeback. you have a state that lags some where in the mid 40s, out of 50 states in -- in unemployment. you have -- you have negative growth i think in income, the last time i looked. i mean, in other words their economy is still very weak. it is a bit perplexing. as we know with new jersey, it is really, a very middle-class state. kind of profoundly middle-class state from one end to the other. and traditionally, i mean, you know, pharmaceutical, they have all these things that, that -- are big employers. they do pretty well. he has come in and he has kind of said -- it's getting better i is getting better. i haven't, you know if you look at the data. it doesn't support him. i think it would be hard and unfair to argue well, he has hurt the state. no. but i don't see really any evidence that it has gotten belter. the christie miracle is, is a

wonderful sound. but i, you don't see it on the ground. >> the christie miracle is coming from christie's campaign not coming from new jersey media? who do you, to your knowledge, who coined that phrase. that was their term. right. >> he talks about it all the time. and the national media picks up on it. he does do this sort of wonderful soft-shoe. on the one hand he does bow to the right. on the other hand he didn't at all mind appearing with president obama in the last days of that presidential race right during the, after hurricane sandy hit. and he doesn't. he will do those things. so he will do enough things that are kind of counterintuitive. >> do you feel that someone that has that -- particular to republicans -- do you feel that someone -- let any just use christie as an example. you have national aspirations. do you feel they have to speak to the right-wing almost disingenuously. are they looking at their real

base? which is the center base? or even center right base and saying "i am going to go off now and talk to these folks, you hold on one second. i will be right back. don't really quote me on any of this stuff. i am going to talk to this crazy wing of the party and throw them some raw meat." do you think the rest of their constituency knows that is an act they have to put on, not just for christie but for all republicans who want to get national office? >> i think that is a great question. i would reel back my phrase pathologic candor. it is hard to know, when you listen to christie, who is it? if he becomes president would he bow toward the right. i suspect he would be more of a center, conservative, republican candidate. left up to his druthers. but that isn't going to get him to the white house. >> one thing that i find interesting, we haven't had a president, from the north eastern united states. i mean the bushes i guess are

from the northeastern united states, their roots and heritage. but we haven't had a president from the northeastern united states in quite some time. not even a viable canned dadida. not since speaking of rockefeller in the 70s s, seeki office. is that what we will see? will she run as the first lady from arkansas, or from new york, or some disembodied force out there? >> i think disembodied force. >> from geneva? >> exactly. i think it is interesting with christie. and that's if the republicans -- and i don't speak as a -- as a huge fan of some christie's policies. but it does strike me he is a strong candidate. and itch tf the republicans aret they would look at the northeast which they have lost badly in recent elections. new england which used to be a very mixed area, right?

new hampshire was, republican, maine was republican, i mean all of these states went. >> here in new york. >> yeah, exactly. they were very much. that's all over. that's really hurt the republicans on a national. i mean in a way, the northeast has become -- to the democrats -- yes. >> to the democratic party. >> christie allows them to play with that a little bit. yes, to put states into play, that would not be in play otherwise. but i don't know -- ♪ ♪ [ tires screech ]

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>> as we talk about a northeastern governor with presidential aspirations, it wasn't so long ago that christie wasn't that governor that people had on the tip of their tongue. and i am wondering how do you compare and contrast cuomo's term in office as governor and where he is going to end up? >> poor andrew cuomo. he had it all set up. and then along comes this disembodied hillary. i mean -- and it really has sucked up his air. because part of andrew's argument is that i am, essentially a clinton democrat, i worked for clinton, clinton is my man. >> it is interesting. because i think that, you wonder, i want to got your take on this. is andrew doomed to never be the president? do you think there is a chance that might happen? >> i don't know that he is doomed.

i would never say that. it is too early. but it is a real problem for him. of course it does strike me there is an irony. the old man, mario cuomo really did have the field open to him at one point. and of course, famously -- was indecisive or just chose not to go there. andrew, would love to go there. but now he faces at the very least having to remain as governor of new york, to keep himself in the public eye, until at the very least 2018. you know, new york politics in new york, a lot of states is really rough. >> he is thinking, 2018. the candidate in 2020. >> maybe, 2022. then he is 60-something. he is no longer the fresh face. he is the third term governor. i think it is a real -- i am sure, knowing andrew cuomo. i am sure he is up diagramming this at 3:00 in the morning. >> now you have been very, very tough for christie. christie has actually, push back on you quite a bit i imagine.

when you dupe this job, and you are not carl bernstein and bob woodward, you are not an investigative reporter, you are a columnist who has a broad menu of perspectives you are covering. you do get some responses from people, no doubt, or their people, correct? >> oh yes. >> give us an example. >> i did a piece, recently, on christie, not a column, an investigative piece looking at the killing of a -- an obscure case. >> the hunterton case. tell us about that for people who don't know the story. >> there was, an obscure case. a sheriff, sheriffs are enormously powerful in new jersey, in all sorts of small town abuse of power, demanding loyalty oaths. >> issuing false badges. >> kind of. >> on their own? >> yes, absolutely. the prosecutor in that county,

who is appointed by the governor, but the, some very good prosecutors, very, long, honorable careers. they looked into -- the sheriff. turns out the sheriff also has pretty tight republican connections. it also turns out that it was connected to one of the illegal identifications you can show and help to get out of a traffic ticket, a big contributor. they announced this indictment. and, boom, attorney general who was appointed by the governor comes in. takes over the office. within a couple months. the indictment was thrown t. which is highly unusual. and three, really good, solid, prosecutors, one of whom was the

republican. and kind of, you know, it is all, in ways circumstantial. many arrows kind of pointing back to at the very least, christie's circle. >> you first became aware of this story how? >> i had written something on, on christie, and one of the prosecutors then pushed and called me up and said look i had this dreadful experience. at first you kind of think this is kind of penny ante, and then you start untangling it. it takes on this kind of, you know this hard tale. >> even though, himself, without knowledge, had a vow, without bush's knowledge, we do find it far-fetched. nonetheless there is nothing to implicate christien a ein any

wrongdoing. >> absolutely. >> you have to consult the old man to get the job done. you hit the ball to third base, third baseman throws the double play. when you are running for second base, you don't ask the third baseman, how did you know how to do that? they isolate him. they protect him. and other people do what they assume is his political bidding the you get involved. what was the push back from the christie -- >> the push back was that i was id idealogically committed to his destruction. >> which party is more sensitive that way? which party, would analyze them and assess them, for your constructive opinion about them. which party is more likely to accuse you of destroying them politically? >> cuomo and christie are both enormously thin-skinned.

however i would say the christie pushback. i have written, many times, critically of cuomo. whereas with christie, i have a couple times gotten that. and i certainly got a very strong one here. not democrats. these were just good line people. and christie plays a very many game of hardball politics. doesn't make him unusual in new jersey, frankly, right? other governors have done it. but boy he does it. and if you are in the way of that, you know, i guess that, that beat this mettory to the ground. if you are in the way of the fastball. you will get hit. in this case, three really good prosecutors got hit. one after the other. >> when a guy like christie views you as somebody out to get him or his people are thin

skinned about it. do they ignore you, not talk, do they call "the new york times," send anybody except powell. how does that play back out in your career? >> hey they dent do that. they will send a letter. >> to who? >> an editor at the famer. and i must say without exception i have never, never had an editor come to and say "you know what you went hard on christie last week, maybe, just look some where else now." has not happened. you have great freedom in this job. >> you and i we could have our own show. >> there you go. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> i want to thank my guests, columnist michael powell of "the new york times" and chris matthews host of "hardball" here on msnbc and author of "tip and the gipper:when politics worked." i hope you will join us next week when i will have two special guests with me together on set. 45 years after they appeared together on screen in the

landmark film "2001 a space odyssey." reunited to reveal the secrets behind the making of movie history. >> stanley couldn't make up his mind up about the voice of hal. so he turned to his first assistant and said, derek, you do the voice. and here's for us, what the sound of hal was. i can't do that, dave. dave, better take a stress pill. all like that. michael caine. >> he was michael caine. that took acting. >> my guests on "2001:a space odyssey." next friday "up late." ♪ ♪ i love having a free checked bag

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