that. >> i think she is -- >> i do. it's got to be -- >> i think the fact that you have to make the argument that she is on twitter and on new technology, i think that's a problem. >> secretary of state, the commitment to you? outside the box programs, offices like the one i ran for her. she was doing pretty out there stuff. >> all right. >> ronan gets tonight's last word and, nia, i will keep him after school. it's under way. thanks nia and ronan. thank you both. "chris haste" is up next. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. yes, the government shutdown is over. the sequester continues. and today, another part of basic government function turned off by republicans. one republican, to be precise. >> i'm going to block every appointment in the united states

senate until the survivors are being made available to congress. i'm tired of hearing from people on tv and reading about stuff in books. we need to get to the bottom of this. >> just 12 days since the government reopened, and lindsey graham is promising to bring executive appointments to a halt. and he can do it using a senate protocol that allows for any single senator to block any nomination by placing a hold on it. but that's how lindsey graham is able to block all nominees, not why. to understand why graham wants to bring government to a halt, you have to meet lindsey graham's primary challenger, south carolina state senator lee bright. >> patrick henry said "give me liberty or give me death." we've got folks in our country that's getting above 50% that say give me liberty or give me a whip card. >> lindsey graham, like john boehner and the house republicans before him, is threatening to essentially shut down part of the government so he can defend himself from a tea

party backlash. recent polling found only 53% of south carolina republicans have a favorable view of graham. for some context, graham's unfavorables in the state are 30 points higher than its fellow senate republican tim scott. needing to turn around his numbers, graham is turning back to benghazi. >> we're just beginning on benghazi. and to the families, we're not going to let this go. >> lindsey graham is just doing what the modern gop does best, using political feeder to placate the base and leaving the american people with the damage. >> talk about benghazi. >> graham is going to block important, substantive nominations so he can win his primary. did you want someone to run the federal reserve, the world's most important economic body? well, sorry, benghazi. >> i haven't forgotten about benghazi. >> did you want someone to run the department of homeland security? that can't happen because benghazi. >> what happened in benghazi. >> did you want an undersecretary for nuclear security? >> we haven't heard from one

person in benghazi. benghazi. benghazi. benghazi. benghazi. benghazi. benghazi. >> you mentioned benghazi. >> yeah. >> america's news may not be secure, but at least lindsey graham will be re-elected. >> this administration needs to be held accountable for benghazi a story of americans abandoned by their government at a time they needed their government the most. >> joining me now is david brock, founder of "media matters for america," and author of the newly released ebook called "the benghazi hoax." and, david, take me through the almost to temmic resonance that benghazi and the deaths of those four americans in that american consulate that night has taken on among the right. >> well, sure. so, in this book, we outline 15 what we call hoaxes. and i think today, in your lead-in, we saw the 16th. you know, behind every bully is a coward, and lindsey graham made a big deal of making

friends with hillary clinton earlier in his days in the senate. then he switched course on benghazi and basically accused her of having blood on his hands, and what changed there? why is he playing politics with national security is the primary challenge he has from the tea party. the tea party challenger referred to him as a community organizer for the muslim brotherhood. and the truth is, and we try to get to facts in the book -- >> wait a second, he actually called him the community organizer for the muslim brotherhood? >> that's right, so this is posturing. there are benghazi truthers at all levels of the republican party, starting with dick cheney, who went on talk radio last week and lied about secretary clinton's role in this to the nut who heckled her last week. so, lindsey graham is looking at the benghazi truthers who are primary voters in south carolina. and the fact is, the people he wants to hear from, chris, they were interviewed by the fbi, they were interviewed by the state department accountability

review board. those transcripts are available to the senate. and lindsey graham even met with some of them. so, this is like your 16th hoax. >> there was a report. i think part of the reason why lindsey graham timed this announcement to this morning where he went on "fox & friends" and made this big deal about it, and i'm going to talk about what this means. i mean, he's putting a hold on all the nominees. this is not just small bit of feeder. he will actually block people from getting a confirmation, et cetera. there was a report on "60 minutes" last night, i want to play you an excerpt of, because i think the conservatives i read seem very excited that this is going to bring back this issue. take a listen. >> it's now well established that the americans were attacked by al qaeda in a well-planned assault. five months before that night, morgan jones first arrived in benghazi. but on his first drive through benghazi, he noticed the black flags of al qaeda flying openly in the streets, and he grew concerned about the guard force as soon as he pulled up to the

u.s. compound. >> there was nobody there that we could see. then we realized they were all inside drinking tea, laughing and joking. >> what was your reaction to the "60 minutes" spot, david? >> well, look, i think that they pose lingering questions about benghazi. and the truth is, there were 157 attacks on u.s. diplomatic facilities since 1998. most of those were under george w. bush. we've had 18 congressional hearings and 25,000 administration documents produced, no evidence of wrongdoing by the president, by secretary clinton. even republican senator bob corker said months ago, we know what happened in benghazi. he's satisfied that he knows it. so, in this report, i mean, i'll say something about two of the sources in the report. one of them, gregory hicks, was presented as a so-called whistle-blower by darrell issa, and, you know, he previously lied and said that there was a

military standdown order in benghazi. that never happened, didn't stop fox news from airing 85 prime time segments saying there was one, but all the testimony from the military officials said that never happened. and the other witness appears to be some type of british mercenary who, apparently, in conversations with fox news, asked for money to talk. and so, you know, fox news even drew a line there, but it was good enough for cbs. >> david brock from "media matters," thank you very much for your time. >> thanks. >> joining me now is former governor of minnesota and former presidential candidate republican tim pawlenty now with the services roundtable, represents financial services companies. the last thing you did in politics was attempt to navigate the mind field of a republican primary, a national republican primary, it should be noted in running for president. put yourself in lindsey graham's shoes. there are certain things he cannot back away from. he is one of the architects of the comprehensive immigration reform bill. he is on the record being quite

angry at ted cruz and his ilk for the government shutdown. if you are him, if you are lindsey graham, how do you go out and win that primary in south carolina? >> well, chris, good evening. and, first of all, before we talk about the primary in south carolina, let's just make sure we understand lindsey graham and his motives. i've known lindsey for years. he's a member of the united states armed services. he's been involved in security and military matters with passion and sincerity for many, many years. and to say, you know, his concern about benghazi is somehow a concoction around the south carolina primary, first of all, isn't true. it isn't the lindsey graham i know, and i don't think anybody who really knows him would say it's lacking in sincerity. and, number two, if you were going to think about benghazi as a primary issue, you know, most of the tea party or many of them, libertarians or tea party types, are noninterventionists. lindsey tends to be interventionist -- >> right, which is why it's a politically expeditious issue for precisely that reason. on to the first point, i don't

think he is faking that he is concerned about benghazi. i'm not saying that. i don't doubt his intentions. but of course, the trick in politics is all a matter of emphasis. there are a whole lot of issues that lindsey graham did not get up before the nation today and say that he would hold every single presidential nominee hostage to other than benghazi, right? so, the choice that a politician decides to emphasis at certain point are partly the product of the circumstances they're finding themselves in. >> but your premise is, look, this is a concoction in precipitation for a primary fight and hopefully a primary victory, in lindsey's case, but this ignores a decade or more of committed history on exactly these kinds of issues taking essentially same or similar positions that lindsey graham has put forward. and to assign political motive to that and say it's insincere and inconsistent with his past record just doesn't withstand scrutiny. by the way, chris, less than a half hour ago on your network, not fox, on msnbc -- >> brandon webb was on chris matthews' show, yes, absolutely. yes, in fact, i watched the interview. in fact, i know brandon quite

well. >> raising, though, chris, legitimate questions about the issue. >> yes, look, right. so, the point, though, is, show me the other issues that lindsey graham had said he is going to put a hold on every single presidential nominee, including the federal reserve, which i imagine your clients in the financial services roundtable can't be crazy about, any other issue where he is going to put a hold on every nominee other than this one issue. >> well, i don't know of any others that he's done that, but i do believe he feels strongly about this. and just because he threatens to put a hold or, in fact, puts a hold on certain nominees, doesn't go to the issue of how long he will keep the hold on or under what circumstances he might release them. look, he's frustrated. he thinks this is an important issue. it has a lot of people on both sides of the aisle raising questions. usually when there's a debate like this, a good way to open, you know, to address it is just open it up to the facts. so, that's all he's trying to do. and again, i don't think it's insincere, and it's consistent with a decade-long service on these issues. >> do you honestly think -- honest question -- do you think

honestly a politician faced with the situation lindsey graham's in, which presumably, he wants to win re-election, i don't begrudge him that that there is nothing about his behavior that changes because of a primary challenge to his right? >> well, i can't speak to how he thinks each day because i don't talk to him each day -- >> no, but a republican -- take a republican member, a standard republican member of the senate or the house of representatives, are you telling me that the threat of a primary challenge has no effect whatsoever on their political behavior? >> well, if the standard, though -- to answer that question -- is are you willing to engage in abnormal procedural activity in the united states congress, then every one of them or nearly every one of them would be guilty of that charge. you know, the senate hasn't passed a budget in nine years. they passed financial matters or budgetary matters on extraordinary procedural maneuvers. so, if your standard's going to be invoking or ignoring procedures in an abnormal way, then they all have dirty hands.

>> well, i agree with you that the abnormal has become normal. former governor tim pawlenty, i really appreciate your time tonight, thanks a lot. >> thank you. >> john judas with "the new republic" where he just wrote the cover story on the future of the tea party. the far right's role in the republican party. john, i want to begin with a little senate hate, because it's something i think you and i see eye to eye on. can we get rid of the hold? why is it the case that any member of the senate can single-handedly block a nominee by not giving unanimous consent? >> it's not in the constitution. it's a part of the tradition of the senate. so is the filibuster. i think that those kind of measures make it very hard for our democracy to function. >> and not only that, right, there is a way in which in the past, those have been bound by a certain kind of institutional norms, traditions, et cetera, that we have gotten out past recently, particularly from the republican party? >> in the past, for instance,

filibusters were extraordinarily rare. what i remember from my childhood was over civil rights. that was the main issue. but they happen once in a decade, maybe. but in the last 20 years, they've happened repeatedly, and it's become so that you can't pass a bill without 60 votes. that's an extraordinary thing, and i think that that's happened largely because of a change in the republican party which has polarized the parties in washington and made it very hard for the government to function. >> just a little bit of data here. so, we're about to enter, i think, into a protracted battle over a nominee to the d.c. circuit appellate court, which is considered the sort of most important court in the land beneath the supreme court. and in terms of nominees, clinton had 77% of his judicial nominees confirmed at this point in his presidency, bush, 92% and barack obama coming in third at 75%. and here's a great upside down example of what this obstruction looks like. you have a situation now in

which senator chuck grassley is basically saying that president obama, in trying to appoint a nominee to fill a vacant seat on that court is engaged in "court-packing." are we officially through the looking glass? >> well, i think we are in a period where it's going to be very hard for the government to function, and really, you're going to have to see a change in the parties. in california, the solution turned out to be the democrats getting the kind of majority where they could pass things without worrying about the filibusters or blocking. so, maybe that's the solution. >> yes, you just wrote a piece in which you basically think the path out of the wilderness from this sort of deadlock of obstruction and destruction and dysfunction is basically just winning all the way around. you point to california, the only way out of this is just overwhelming maximum majorities, but that's not plausible nationwide, is it? >> well, there's two paths. that's one path. i think it's very hard to

imagine that, especially because of the house of representatives. i think you could imagine the senate, as happened in 2008, getting a veto-proof majority or 60 votes, which are necessary to get past the filibuster. the other possibility is for the republicans to become more of a centrist party. that also might happen, and it might happen in the wake of the shutdown and the reaction of the business community to what occurred and to the danger, really, that the republican right poses to the country. so, that's the other possibility, that you'll see a kind of a change where the people who are now dealing with the obama people, people like senator corker, senator ayotte, will become the norm, and the ted cruzes will become marginalized. >> in order for that to happen, of course, and this gets back to the point i was just making with tim pawlenty, there has to be a

shift in political incentives so that lindsey graham and others face people essentially to their left in primaries, rather than a man like lee bright, who says tyranny is what barack obama, harry reid and the rest of the liberals are trying to force upon our land. john judis from the new republic, thank you so much for your time tonight. >> thank you. coming up -- >> we need a responsible, permanent solution to the problem of those who are here illegally. but first, we must follow through on the broken promises of the past to secure our borders and enforce our laws. >> it was during this address that republican senator marco rubio famously took that famous sip of water, which inspired our continuing series "i see you, marco rubio," to retract his constantly devolving position on immigration reform. the latest twist. stick around. easier to get a ne, awarded j.d. power's most appealing midsize car, easier to get a ne, two years in a row. and right now you can drive one home for practically just your signature.

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we'd love to hear from you on twitter and facebook. the obama care fearmongering continues. now it's sharply focused on the initial implementation of the affordable care act. tonight's question -- what's the

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so you won't feel robbed. again. just another way we put members first. because we don't have shareholders. join the nation. ♪ nationwide is on your side ♪ big news from marco rubio today. in the latest installment of our recurring series, "i see you, marco rubio." for a while now, we've had our eyes on senator marco rubio and he's back and forth on immigration reform waiting for the morally bankrupt ending to the saga of rubio trying to please the party's donor class while not alienaing primary voters. for those who missed it here's a quick recap of what that's looked like. >> is there something that happens in this debate, the amendment process, additional opposition from conservatives, that causes you to step back and say, i can no longer support this compromise agreement? >> i don't anticipate that. i think it's a very good piece of legislation, a very good law. >> will you yourself support the bill that emerged from

judiciary, senator rubio? >> well, i think if those amendments don't pass, then i think we've got a bill that isn't going to become law and i think we're wasting our time, so the answer is no. this is hurting america. this should be about helping the united states, and if nothing passes, then this disaster we have now, that's what's going to stay in place. there are many things on immigration that we can agree on, and i think we should move on those and make progress on those issues, and there are a handful that we have no consensus on in this country yet, and those issues may have to be, you know, delayed at some point until we can reach a consensus on how to approach them. >> okay, so, today comes news that rubio is basically opposing the passage of comprehensive immigration reform in the house. instead, he's now calling on his colleagues in the house to pass a bunch of piecemeal bills which is the house gop's current favorite strategy for just killing reform outright. the only approach that has a realistic chance of success is to focus on those aspects of reform on which there is consensus through a series of individual bills, said a rubio spokesman to the talking point

memo. "otherwise, this latest effort to make progress will meet the same fate as previous efforts, failure." now only did he trumpet this piecemeal approach, he instructed the house not to pass anything that can go into conference committee with the senate's bill. the senate, of course, passed with great fanfare a bipartisan bill that rubio's quite familiar with because he helped write it. >> here in america, generations of unfulfilled dreams will finally come to pass, and that's why i support this reform, not just because i believe in immigrants, but because i believe in america even more. >> i like that speech, but just to be clear here, rubio today came out against that speech, came out against his own bill and also came out against even the possibility of the house passing a bill that could ever be merged with his own bill. if you've been following this saga, you probably knew this was coming. and the worst part, this is the worst part, is that while it might tangibly hurt the chances for reform and the 11 million people living in limbo, it will do nothing for rubio's own political fortunes.

it is purposeless destruction at this point. he's already rightly taken a political hit for crafting and promoting the gang of eight bill. now he's going to take another hit, understandably, for his inconstancy or as one of the republicans who plans to lobby for immigration reform in washington tomorrow told msnbc's benji sarlen, "finding a politician who's one on the i was for it before i was against it tragedy." to use the recurring metaphor, today's news is the part of the episode where rubio tries to put the bottle back on the table after having taken a sip. the problem is that everyone saw what he did. joining me now is morella praeli who is the direct of advocacy and policy for the united we dream network. as an activist, you have worked in opposition to and with marco rubio. you've met with him. you've come on my show before, defended him and his integrity and good faith. how are you feeling in reaction to the news today? >> i guess the first words that come to mind, chris, are

irresponsible and cowardly. not how i'm feeling, but really the perspective we currently hold of senator rubio after his back-and-forth on immigration. i mean, talk about working on something for months, coming to an agreement, taking a vote for it, and then completely saying no, house republicans, you should just ignore this and move in a different direction. >> the other irony of today is that the same day that marco rubio did this, and it's getting a fair amount of press, representative jeff denham of california becomes the first republican to sign on with 185 democrats to co-sponsor a house plan to adopt most of the senate's bill. "i'm the first republican. i expect more to come on board. they've told me that we're going to have this issue on the floor by the end of the year." take those two developments into consideration, marco rubio, jeff denham. where are we on this right now? >> so, you know, i think during the shutdown, there wasn't a lot of progress obviously in congress on immigration reform. our movement has been very loud from day one and continue to do so through august recess and

through the shutdown. we continue to come out and press members of congress to really get behind an immigration reform bill that really honors the dignity of our people, and that means that it would have to include a pathway to citizenship for the 11 million. >> okay, but here's the problem. i'm sorry to cut you off, but here's the problem. that argument, which i find very persuasive, why is that going to be persuasive to members of the house republican caucus who are looking at the same political incentives marco rubio is? >> so, i mean, you have members who have come out for citizenship. we have the votes that we need. and if it were not for what we call the hasser excuse, we would have a vote on either the senate bill or a modified version, of the senate bill which is hr-15 right now. that's the senate bill, plus bipartisan policy that was voted out of committee in the house that addresses the border security issue. so you know, i think we have people like representative denham coming out in support for this bill. we have other folks. we now have 29 house republicans who have come out for

citizenship. this weekend, representative franks from arizona, from the 8th congressional district, also came out for pathway to citizenship. so, while you have some forward movement in the house, you know, as they figure out procedurally how they want to move forward with immigration reform, you have people like senator rubio coming out trying to defeat a measure he worked on trying to move forward. and to me, that's not leadership. i also don't want us to be overly focused on him, because i think the people who really matter right now at this point in the debate are house republican leadership, and that means speaker boehner has to really address this issue. >> do you think that you have the votes? you just said that you think you have the votes. if john boehner -- we did a segment on this last week, where we basically said this is the same dynamic as the shutdown, which is, the analogy is, you know, the whole time john boehner could have ended the shutdown like that, he just brought a clean cr to the floor it passes with all the democrats and enough republicans. do you think that dynamic is in play right now on some version of the senate bill? >> yes.

i think that if it were not for the haster excuse, right? this rule that's not really a rule in the house, we would be able to have a vote on this bill now. we have 185 democrats who have signed on to hr-15, to the immigration reform bill in the house that has a pathway to citizenship, that addresses the border security issues, et cetera, and i think that we can probably see 195 to 200 democrats on that bill. we now have 29 republicans in the house who have come out. that's over 218 votes. >> right. >> in the house. >> i want to play something for you that senator john mccain actually said about the politics of this issue this morning at a breakfast in chicago. take a listen. >> let's say we do pass it. it will not gain us a single republican voter, but what it will do for the republican party is it will allow us to compete for the hispanic vote. it will give us a playing field where we can argue for lower taxes, less regulation, smaller government, strong military, et cetera. but if we don't pass it, we will

not compete for the hispanic vote. >> if we don't pass it, we will not compete for the hispanic vote. do you think he's right? >> yeah, i think he's absolutely right, and i actually would make an argument for not only the hispanic vote but also for independent voters, right? so, immigration reform and the current moral crisis that exists in our community because, you know, 1,100 people are getting deported every day that president obama doesn't halt the deportations and every day the house republicans don't act on this bill. so, i think americans have tuned in to that. i think americans understand the crisis that our community is faced with every day, and they tie that to the inaction. i mean, but republicans have now this track where they have to first fail at something to then realize that it's political suicide for them to continue on that destructive path. >> that's a good point, and that is exactly the dynamic that had to happen with the shutdown, and hopefully, i hope that you're right, that enough failure will convince john boehner to do the thing he did with the shutdown, the thing he did with sandy recovery, which is bring it to a

vote. lorella praeli from the united we dream network, thank you so much. >> the story in california where hundreds of thousands of middle class americans are finding sticker shock. >> the president has some credibility problems, too, because he goes out and says these things that have right from the get-go been untrue, and he knew they were untrue. >> that was karl rove on fox news earlier today doing his best to contribute to the not quite all the information campaign on obama care, and i'm going to explain, coming up.

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do you remember that weird moment at the g-8 summit in 2006 when president bush gave an unsolicited shoulder massage to german chancellor angela merkel? it was one of the more bizarre moments of the bush presidency, a moment that was pretty much seared into my brain. and i cannot be the only person in america who immediately thought back to that moment when i heard some of the most recent revelations about nsa surveillance. thanks to edward snowden, we now know the nsa monitored the phone conversations of 35 world leaders. that includes merkel, who is object sensibly a u.s. ally. merkel was reportedly livid about the surveillance and called president obama to register her displeasure. but the spying may have begun as far back as 2002, the early days of the bush administration, before merkel even became chancellor. and that timeline makes this clip from 2006 even creepier! i can't help but wonder if bush had gotten a tip from the nsa about how merkel mentioned on the phone she enjoyed the

occasional back rub. here's the craziest part about this whole thing, it's not that we were tapping the german chancellor's phones, which is not necessarily that surprising, even though it involved an ally, it is that, apparently, president obama did not know we were doing it, according to a report from the "wall street journal" out today. the spying on merkel was part of the massive surveillance operation put in place by president george w. bush after the september 11th attacks, which members of the bush administration continue to defend to this day. >> we do have a fantastic intelligence capability worldwide against all kinds of potential issues and concerns. we are vulnerable, as was shown on 9/11, and you never know what you're going to need when you need it. and the fact is, we do collect a lot of intelligence, and without speaking about any particular target or group of targets, that intelligence capability is enormously important to the

united states. >> of all the dangers that come with this really massive, sprawling surveillance state that dick cheney and george w. bush helped construct, the erosion of personal privacy, the damaged diplomatic relations, the biggest may be this. the apparatus itself is so big, it cannot be adequately overseen by the person who is the "wall street journal" reported, the president went nearly five years without learning u.s. spies were bugging the phones of world leaders. he only discovered the spying due to an internal review that started this summer. officials said decisions like this, to, you know, for instance, spy on world leaders, are made at the agency level. perhaps the best way to think about the nsa is the way we think about the banks that got us into the financial crisis. they are institutions that are so massive and complex, they cannot actually be managed. their very existence in their current state threatens epic destruction when inevitable

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have you heard that hundreds of thousands of people are losing their health care coverage because of obama care? well, that's not really the whole story. we're going to bring in an editor at "consumer reports" to separate myth from fact, so tell your favorite right-wing uncle to watch, because it's next. first, the three awesomest things on the internet today. we begin with an answer to a question that probably shouldn't need to keep asking. actress julianne hough made a name for herself on "dancing with the stars" but enjoys all kinds of shows, including "orange is the new black." reportedly, she dressed in a halloween costume as one of the show's african-american characters.

as you can imagine, her blackface was not well received. hough was quick to apologize on twitter for the costume, but i started thinking about a way to prevent these incidents from happening in the future. i asked on twitter, can someone make a microsite at shouldidressinblackface.com with a big "no" as the only text on the landing page? thanks. and within minutes twitter user leah doolittle repied buying the name asap. i encourage everyone to visit the site and take in its subtle message. and while i'm at it, i'd like to wish for some other things that will be granted by the magic twitter pixies -- single-payer and one? the second awesomest thing on the internet today, the band is back on the field. last week, the ohio state university marching band received kudos for their tribute to michael jackson, complete with giant moonwalk. for this week's game, they had to top itself and they did with a tribute to multiple blockbuster hollywood movies. there's clark kent entering a phone booth only to emerge as superman with cape flowing

behind him as he stops a building from falling down. seriously. there was harry potter riding a broom as he chased down the golden snitch. nice form. and although we only have a few seconds, we thought we'd show you this jurassic park dinosaur devouring an unlucky victim. ♪ >> delicious! pity the team that has to follow that halftime show. might as well stay in the locker room. and the third awesomest thing on the internet today. you know what they say about imitation, it's the greatest form of flattery and the films of wes anderson were flattered big time when edward norton hosted "saturday night live." norton is becoming a wes anderson regular. in our wildest imaginations, we never thought we'd see him in something like this, a trailer for a new horror movie as if

it were directed by wes anderson with all the whimsy and flights of fancy we've come to love. norton makes a spot-on owen wilson who is trying to protect his family from quirky knife-wielding psychopaths at his door. >> the story of one determined father -- >> hey, kids, come on, let's go to the panic room. ♪ >> and his two precocious children. >> we have to protect ourselves or we'll die. >> quick, let's gather all our weapons. rock, hammer, swiss army knife, slingshot, firecracker, ship in a bottle, protractor, picture, assault rifle, little flack. >> the sketches were all amazing, production design was off the charts, all of which begs one question, when are they actually making this movie and can the answer be immediately? you can find all the links for tonight's "click 3" on our website, allinwithchris.com. we'll be right back. (vo) you are a business pro.

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in california, kaiser permanente terminated policies for 160,000 people. in florida, at least 300,000 people are losing coverage. that includes 56-year-old diane barrett. last month, she received a letter from blue cross/blue shield informing her as of january 2014, she would lose her current plan. barrette pays $54 a month. the new plan she's being offered would run $581 a month. >> okay, you've probably seen a lot of coverage like that, and here's part of the problem with what you just heard.

that kind of cheap $54 insurance plan, the kind i had when i was 24, that insurance plan that diane is going to lose is probably what "consumer reports" calls junk health insurance, the kind of plan that is huge deductibles, the kind of plan that's cheap but provides bare bones coverage and leaves the consumer with huge out-of-pocket expenses if they ever actually get sick. the price difference between diane's $54 plan and a new obama care plan also fails to take into account the possibility of available subsidies designed explicitly to help people shoulder the cost of health care. more on that in a moment. but there is underneath all of that a basic truth here. insurance plans are being canceled. if, for example, your health insurance plan does not cover ten essential benefits required under the new affordable care act, stuff like prescription drugs, maternity care and mental health care, and if that policy was sold to you after the law went into effect in march of 2010, then that policy may, in fact, end january 1st of next year.

and to understand why the right is making so much hay out of this, why they are obsessed with it, why its leading drudge, the source of the uproar, you have to understand the two basic truths about american health care that guided the entire design of the affordable care act. all right, are you listening? number one, the american health care system is way, way too expensive and leaves too many people uninsured. it delivers the worst value of any system among developed countries. that's number one. number two, the majority of people do not want to change their health care. those two ideas were always very much in tension with each other. but the design of obama care was to leave as much as possible of our existing health care system in place while also covering the uninsured and bringing down costs. what we are seeing right now is the front edge of where attempts to deal with truth number one run into truth number two. under the affordable care act, you will no longer be permitted to buy a really crappy health

insurance policy, just as under financial reform, lots of folks are no longer permitted to buy heinously destructive adjustable rate balloon payment mortgages. joining me now to explain this at greater length is nancy metcalf, senior editor at "consumer reports," where she covers health reports, dr. menisha shermana, medical director at evergreen health care, part of a new insurance provider in maryland's health exchange and jonathan coombs, senior editor at "the new republic," where he's just written a piece about obama care and author of "sick: the untold story of america's health care crisis and the people who pay the price." all right. i want to start with this. there's two issues floating around. i saw it really explode this weekend. one is people are getting their plans canceled. what is going on? we were all told nothing would change, nothing would change, and now things are changing. you sold us a bill of goods, barack obama's a tyrant, i hate you. then the other is, the price is in the exchange. so, i want to take them in

order, because there's actually some really interesting and important truths to be told here, and i want to have you guys with your expertise explain what's going on with these cancellations right after we take this break. which means it's never been easier to get a new passat, awarded j.d. power's most appealing midsize car, two years in a row. and right now you can drive one home for practically just your signature. get zero due at signing, zero down, zero deposit, and zero first month's payment on any new 2014 volkswagen. hurry, this offer ends october 31st. for details, visit vwdealer.com today. they're the days to take care of business.. when possibilities become reality. with centurylink as your trusted partner, our visionary cloud infrastructure and global broadband network free you to focus on what matters. with custom communications solutions and responsive, dedicated support, we constantly evolve to meet your needs. every day of the week.

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we're back. i'm here with nancy metcalf, dr. money nisha sharma, jonathan cohen. jonathan, explain to me what's going on with these plans being canceled. >> i actually like the way you explained this tension between trying to create a better health care system but recognizing that a lot of people have insurance that they like. so, the basic approach of obama care, the affordable care act is to look and say, well, who has stable insurance right now? and predominantly, that's people, you know, with insurance from a large employer or from medicare or from medicaid. and that's actually the vast majority of americans. so, for them, you know, very little changes. but you have this group of people who are buying insurance on their own, and these are where you have all the problems,

this is where you have all the problems, all those plans that you mentioned that don't cover things. when you can buy a plan on the individual market, it might be really cheap, but it won't cover maternity it won't cover mental health, it will have huge deductibles, it won't cover prescription drugs. and basically, the law says, look, we want to set a standard, a minimum standard that all plans must meet these, you know, must provide these things. and if there are plans out there that don't, you know, insurance companies are going to have to come up with something new. now, that means that the people who have those plans now eventually are going to have to give them up. that is what we're seeing. it is that very small number of americans who have to give up those plans. >> nancy, the individual market was kind of a wild west before this bill, right? i mean, as someone at "consumer reports," have you interacted with the individual market? >> extensively, and it's been a nightmare for consumers. they don't understand it. it's been tremendously easy for them to end up with horrendous insurance that doesn't -- talk about not covering prescription drugs, not covering hospitalization, not covering

doctor visits, not covering x-rays. it's just been horrendous, and it's been very difficult for people to navigate. the affordable care act is going to change that. you're not going to be able to buy a junk plan anymore. they're against the law. >> do you think that's a good thing? >> absolutely, because it's doing for people on the individual market what big, huge human resources departments have been doing for years for people who get insurance through their jobs. >> so, the employer-provided health care, the people who are negotiating these big, bulk contracts, they also put in minimum standards into those big contracts when you get employer-provided? >> yes, absolutely. >> dr. sharma, you're now active in health care provider in maryland that's setting up this exchange, and the other thing besides plans getting canceled is the idea of rates going up. we are hearing any time there is an american out there, looks like their rates are going up,

they will be on your television set. what is your sense in the early going of on balance what's happening to folks that are going into the exchanges? >> so, you know, i think that when we look at insurance policies being canceled and raising prices and premiums going up, i think those are really great headlines for people who hate the affordable care act. but the fact of the matter is, is that you have to look under the sticker price. the sticker price may be that it's, you know, "x" amount of dollars, but there's a lot of subsidies that go on with these sticker prices. and underneath it is giving comprehensive health care. prior to the affordable care act, let's not forget that insurance companies were not regulated, they were not held accountable for giving people proper health care access. and so, with the affordable care act and the sticker prices that may look at the first blush as being expensive, you've got to look under the hood of the car and be able to say, hey, this is what we're getting. >> right, and the big question is subsidies. we don't know, for instance, in the woman profiled on cbs, we do

not know if she applies for subsidies. even that being the case, jonathan, it is true, right, there will be some people in the future world who will pay more for insurance. that is not an absolute outright falsehood about some set of human beings under the affordable care act? >> no, it's absolutely the case. there are going to be people who pay more, and there are going to be people who pay less. there is no way to design a health care system where everybody pays less. what i think is important to remember, though, is that the best estimates i've seen say that if you look at the people who buy insurance now and what they will be paying later, the most likely, the majority will be paying less. so you'll have more winners than losers. if you want to think of it that way. and even the people who will be paying less -- and this is what i think everyone is saying tonight -- is the people who are paying more, they're still getting much better insurance. they're getting better coverage. and you know, in the long run, they may actually spend less on their medical bills because they'll have better coverage. >> does that more or less jive with what you've found? >> yes, and the problem is,

people don't realize they've got these subsidies coming to them. if i can do a little ad. >> yes. >> "consumer reports" created an online interactive tool. called healthlawhelper.org. you put in a couple pieces of information, it's anonymous. if you can't find it out right now from healthcare.gov, you can come to our site and find out whether you have one of these subsidies coming to you, or maybe even have your kids be eligible for c.h.i.p., maybe even be eligible for medicaid. >> right. >> so, that's -- because it's a thing that a lot of people are really missing. >> this is a really important point that not just subsidies in the market, but there is medicaid expansion, there is c.h.i.p., a variety of things people may qualify for if they can make it through the thicket. what's your experience been like, dr. sharma, in maryland so far? i know the exchanges run into problems there. as a frontline provider, are you confident about where this is headed right now? >> yes, i am. i think, you know, all good

things have time to cultivate and work out the kinks. the insurance exchange is a great place for folks to get quality, low-cost health care. evergreen co-op is a -- it came to fruition because of the affordable care act, because its actual mission is to be able to say, hey, we're all about patients' health. we care about what matters to patients. their voice counts. prior to the affordable care act, let's not forget, i'm not an insurance expert, but i'm an everyday doctor, everyday people, and i can tell you with all of my patients that have not had health insurance and would come and see me because they were really, really sick, this is the first time where they'll be able to have actual access to health care that they can afford. and you know, it's a step in the right direction for it. >> one of the things that's going to be really interesting is, i think in the long run, if the policy is good policy, it will be good politics. in the short run, there is a