its not one you want on your resume, particularly from wikipedia. that's what rand paul has the. in the face of the mounting evidence. this is a repeat thing. senator paul is not talking. we reached out to his office again today, no response at all. not just us doing the asking anymore. here its headline in the louisville currier journal. paul's office did not respond to e-mails seeking comment about the speeches or whether paul wrote them himself. rand paul may not want to answer to me, or this show or this network about this, but he is going to have to answer for this to his hometown press or somebody. he may not want to, but he is going to have to. this is getting worse by the day. we will keep you posted on what else we fiend and and whether o we hear from him. now time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. have a great night. >> 28 years ago the governor of new york in a speech at yale university said "we campaign in poetry, but when we are elected we are forced to govern in

prose." tonight, president obama's poetry is under attack. >> the white house finds it self under the magnifying glass. >> the website has been grilled for hours. >> is that a true statement. >> yes or no question. >> by members of the house ways and means committee. >> this is government-run health care. >> republican leadership its out with a new message. >> the problems run deeper than just the website. >> we are over the website. >> my constituents can't keep their health care plan. >> he received this cancellation letter. >> they thought they could keep. >> they are not happy. >> they did not expect to get the letters. >> we need to fix the problem. >> expanned coverage. >> keep my doctors. >> you want prices to go down. >> i would look to have lower premiums. >> both involve more government. >> pass. >> republicans are walking into a trap. >> they have branded the

republican party as anti-obama care party. >> the republican party is a post policy party. >> you have to defend the shut down. >> the shut down was magnificent. run beautifully. >> do you think the republican majority in the house is in jeopardy. >> republicans are walking into a trap. >> which republican is going to stand up and say, mr. president, we are one country we want to make this work. awe stwe need to delay the mande tax. >> this has got to be delayed. >> there its no way to fix the monstrosity. >> nobody. ♪ in 1985, the democrating governor of new york, mario cuomo attacked economic policies of ronald reagan in a speech he delivered at yale. governor cuomo said the reagan re-election campaign was filled with oversimplification and reagan policies if enacted would be areharsher.

that led governor cuomo to say perhaps the most memorable line of any speech. he said we campaign in poetry. but when we are elected we are forced to govern in prose. tonight, president obama stands accused of campaigning in poetry when he was campaigning to passion the affordable care act. >> if you look your health care plan, you will be able to keep your health care plan. period. >> if you have health insurance. nothing in the plan will require you to change what you have. >> when president obama was campaigning for re-election the affordable care act had not been fully emmrameimplemented and sa. if you are one of more than 250 million americans who already have health insurance, you will keep your health insurance. >> today in the white house press briefing room, jay carney had to explain the president's poetry in prose. >> the president said, a very

simple statement, using the present tense. if you like the plan that you have, you can keep it. period. >> again. >> if you like the plan you had in 2009. >> i understand what you are saying. i can simply say that -- that was consistent with what the president had been saying since prior to the passage of the affordable care act. it described. he was describing what was written into the law which is that we would, the law would grandfather in those who had insurance and liked it and wanted to keep it even once the affordable care act was implemented. and i understand that yeah, there is more to that story. because of choices that insurance companies made to change the plans that individuals might have had. >> also, today, in a house ways and means committee hearing, republican chairman, dave camp asked head of center for medicare and medicaid services

about this all. up ai ju >> i want to mention a letter i received from my district. and this man wrote me and said, my wife has been recently informed by her insurance carrier her health care policy does not comply with the affordable care act now. weep mu we must purchase a approximately see to get the coverage at an 18% increase in our premium. what happened to the if you look your insurance you can keep it, question. what would you say how to that stri individual? >> i would take him back to if you were in the individual market you were living at a 50%, half the people in the individual market prior to 2010 didn't stay on their policies they were kicked off for pre-existing condition, saw their premiums go up at least 20% a year, and there were no protections for them. and some times they were in plans that they thought were fine until they actually needed hospitalization. then they found out it didn't cover hospitalization. or it didn't cover cancer. >> joining me now are jared bernstein, senior fellow at

center on budget and policy priorities, msnbc analyst, and served under vice president biden. >> and zerlena maxwell. i want to start with you. you are very frustrated at the way this has been covered for the last few days. i read today why you are so frustrated about this. >> i am frustrated. i am uninsured. i am not going through this process as a journalist symbolically to go on to a site and scum placomplain or call th center and, the calls dropped in performance art. i am logging on to the website. frustrating. >> you have been watching all these reporters go on. and all of whom are not just insured, they're rather heavily insured. like i am. >> right. they have jobs that provide insurance. so, i felt that there was a -- a blind spot. you know in their coverage.

i called it privilege. i got attacked for that. the bottom line is, it is a short time problem with the website. to fix a long term health crisis, a national crisis. so the perspective is all getting lost in sort of the back and forth horse race coverage. they're covering it like a game. and real talk. we are in the first quarter of, you know, the first part of the first quarter of an entire game. it doesn't start. whether i was able to soon of on october 1 or whether or not tie have to wait until december 14th when the website gets fixed. i can't get coverage until january 1. so that's all getting lost here. it is about real lives and people. >> i want to go back to, something -- we played a little piece of president obama saying this thing about -- nothing in this plan will require you to change what you have. i actually cut off the sentence that he said right after that. i want to play this quote that you just heard earlier. i want to play again with one additional sentence on it. >> if you already have health insurance, nothing in this plan will require you to change what

you have. what this plan will do is make the insurance you have work better for you. >> and jared bernstein, in that extra sentence there its the clue that there is something more here than the simple aspect of if you already like your plan or if you have insurance nothing is going to change for you. you always knew, on the policy seed of it. i always knew, knowing as much about the approximately spolicy were going to change for a lot who had plans already. >> right. exactly as jay carney said -- the plan back in 2010, actually did grandfather insurance coverage that didn't necessarily meet the consumer protections that are so important in affordable care act. but if those plans changed, such that they no longer are at all in sync with exactly what the president was saying there, with improvements in coverage. then of course, they can't be supported under health care

reform. it as if i offered you and zerlina an opportunity to sign up for jared care. here's how jared care works. you pay me $1 a month. if you get sick i give you a band-aid. get really sick, i will give you a bowl of chicken soup. we can call that a plan on the individual market. i am slightly exaggerating. there are plans out there, individual market that look a little bit too much look what i described as jared care. that won't work in any kind of health care reform system that is going to -- contain costs, be affordable, and accessible. so, yes. if you have, if you are one of the 270 million people covered through their employer, through government, you actually do get to keep your plan just the same way the president said. but if you are individual plan was grand fathfathered in and cd for the worse, it doesn't fit in obama care. >> zerilna from your stet what what -- seat what do you think of

the distinction, the way the president would say it when pushing for it and reality today? >> i think we have to keep perspective, insurance market. as some one who had to shop on the individual market look jared said you are not get anything great. you are getting co-insurance that with high co-pays. every team you go off to the doctor. it costs hundred of dollars. i think all is getting lost in, you know, really semantic argument about sort of the phrasing and maybe, you know some people being mislead by that. i think people that haven't shopped on the individual market don't know how horrific it is. >> jared, you were on the inside. were you aware of discussion as but maybe the president is oversimplifying on this line. and maybe we should refine it ape la little bit and qualify it a little bit. >> i really wasn't. i actually think the accusation of oversimplification is a fair one. i think what the president really, perhaps needed to say there was -- if you -- like what you have -- and what you have

doesn't change in such a way that it is -- not at all look what we are frying how to do here. you know then you can keep it. but that is a nuanced message. there was simplification when you are trying to articulate complicated legislation. >> zerlina, what you haven order to sell this you had to come up with the simplest phrasing of that. and i think they probably, some of the policy people who knew how oversimplified that was thought, "well if our worst problem is that this becomes a law and we have to explain that disting distinction we will take that." >> all of this is an in environment. where you half the other side claiming there are death panels. you have the frank lund language. this is the end of humanity as we know it. hyperbole. yes, they were looking to have a very, straight forward streamlined message that americans could really, attach to, attach their support for.

against hyperbole. now we are seeing what is happening with that. same time. again. big picture. this will change the lives of millions of americans. that fact should not beep lost. >> you have tried off to leg on. now because you are in new york, you get to use the the new york website which is working pretty good. >> yes. the first week. not working. not working. not going to sit here and line. it was not working. because i am uninsured. i was patient. i've rationed my inhaler for a year. i was patient. perhaps more than people doing it symbolically. and they don't have to call, call centers, log on to sites to get other services in that way. i was logging on. i have plans to pick from. i haven't picked one. not picking out a shirt. i will take my time. most young people well do that. wait until the last minute the we are procrastinators here. >> jared, it seems as though the

poet poetry has caught up with the president. zerlina's point of, they were fighting crazy rhetorical statements from the other side about death panels. just, utter madness. the rhetorical calculations seem to be let's make this as clear and understandable as possible. >> the was very important. interesting by the way, the president used the numberen the clip. i hadn't realized this before. that refers to the people who are covered. the vast majority of people who have health insurance are covered through their employer or government plan. for them things don't change. so that actually is what he was referring to. for a lot of those people that was an important message. i will also say that i probably wouldn't use the past tense, tense, in, in -- in the sense of, you know they were attacking obama care. >> yeah. yeah. >> they are attacking. and so, any -- this oversimplification of a complicated set of dynamics here

has obvious leap july become an point. hard to have a rational conversation we are having here when the opposition is loaded the way they are. >> jared bernstein, zechrlina maxwell, thank you. mitch mcconnell is so afraid of his tea party challenger he is actually taking credit for shutting down the government. it's actually he is so far ahead of the tea party challenger, he is willing to do that. his democratic opponent is giving him credit for shutting down the government. later in a "last word" experiment that could go very, very wrong. we will try to snow washington how two people can respectfully disagree with the last word chaplain, and atheist penn gillette. we'll give the! ly

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what can an atheist and priest teach washington about how to have a civilized discussion about the budget? that's coming up later. next, mitch mcconnell is being attacked by his republican opponent and his democratic opponent for what he did during the government shutdown. ♪ [ male announcer ] maybe you've already heard what they're saying about the nissan altima. ♪ and we have to admit, that it's all true. but don't just take their word for it, check it out for yourself. the award-winning nissan altima. nissan. innovation that excites. now get a $179 per month lease on a 2013 nissan altima. ♪

you may be muddling through allergies. try zyrtec-d®. powerful relief of nasal congestion and other allergy symptoms -- all in one pill. zyrtec-d®. at the pharmacy counter. senate republican leader mitch mcconnell is facing a tough fight from democrats and the tea party in his home state of kentucky in his re-election campaign. mitch mcconnell played a key role in finding the final solution to the government shutdown and his ree la-electio

campaign wants kentucky voters to know that. >> gridlock and games. >> minority leader mitch mcconnell helped pave the way for this. >> mitch mcconnell saying this is a done deal. >> senator mcconnell, the one on top of the pile. >> the problem for mcconnell is that the tea party also wants people in kentucky to know about his role in negotiating an end to the government shutdown. the senate conservatives actions superpac founded by the president for the heritage foundation jim demint supported by senator ted cruz is running this ad in kentucky. >> conservatives asked mitch mcconnell to lead the fight against obama care. he didn't listen. instead mcconnell helped barack obama and harry reid fund obama care. now kentucky families are paying

the price. premiums on lost coverage, even lost jobs. when kentucky needed mitch mcconnell the most, he let us down. >> at the same time, mitch mcconnell is being attacked by democratic candidate kentucky secretary of state for creating an atmosphere in the senate that led to the government shutdown. >> he calls himself a proud guardian of gridlock. he has blocked the senate over 400 times. then voted to shut down the government, hurting kentucky's economy. mitch mcconnell can't light the house on fire then claim credit for putting it out. >> a recent poll by democratic-leaning public policy polling shows a tight race with his opponent ahead of senator mitch mcconnell. mcconnell must faced matt bevens in a may 20th primary.

joining me howard fineman, and josh barrow for business insider. howard, senior kentucky correspondent. >> thank you, a title i am honored to have. >> more experience there than any one else in the building. this is a cross wind that mcconnell is caughten sneer. >> yeah, it really is. matt bevin who i saw down in kentucky at fancy farms, the big political speeching contest down in the summer there. is, is, is not a bad candidate. he is learning fast. just as important he has got big money behind him. that very sophisticated ad that you showed attacking mitch mcconnell from the right. has got 330,000 dollars behind it in an ad buy. not something just saying throwing up on you tube. on television across the state is my understanding. mitch mcconnell has got to deal with that. most people think he will win that. but it is not a certainty by any means. and allison grimes, comes from a

political family. she is a tough customer. and, and she went up with, one of her first big ad was a very, very, that very tough attack ad that you saw. back when she was running for -- her kecurrent office, secretaryf state she had ads featuring her grandmothers. this know the that kind of campaign. yes, mcconnell. there is reason why some view this as the a tossup. charlie cook has it as a tossup in the general. in the general. may be leaning towards mcconnell. such a red state in presidential politics. most of the elects officials, stayed wide, are democrats. mcconnell has his hand full here. he is going to be the ground zero of the national campaign in this scummi incoming year. >> josh barrow, seems mcconnell is not that worried about the primary if he is putting out video taking credit for shoveling the government

shutdown which involved raising the debt ceiling. >> right. i find this remarkable. making an affirmative case against the tea party strategy of complete scorched earth, vote no on everything, shut down the government, history the debt ceiling if we have to. this is the case that john boehner was trying to make, that this was a bad strategy. mitch mcconnell making the case. he said on one of the sunday shows, he had been saying back until july. shutting down the government was a bad idea. this hasn't been easy to sell to conservatives. the idea that not taking every fight all the way to the edge is the better strategy for policy outcomes. he must be confident he is going to be able to make the case and survive the primary. mcconnell is a smart political operator. hasn't stayed in the senate for 30 years being politically dumb. like harry reid. in their home states. never that popular there. they hold on. they have a good intuitive sense

of the politics and know which support they need to build a majority. >> howard, has mcconnell had a serious challenge in a primary since he has been an incumbent? is he accustomed to this kind of fight? >> no. he is not. he really isn't. he sort of had the challenge by proxy. back when rand paul came out of nowhere to -- win the primary against -- for the -- for the other senate seat from -- against mitch mcconnell's hand picked candidate. trey greyson. mitch mcconnell has seen the power of the tea party. i think what mitch mcconnell is doing. i don't think he is taking matt bevin lightly. i think mitch mcconnell is playing the only card he really has. which is that he is going the -- i'm a statesman, i can bring the money back to kentucky, i have the experience route. which he fields i think will be popular in the republican primary. because there are plenty of people over the year, now that

he has been, he is a five-term senator. he has brought a lot of money back to the state. he has done a lot of favors for a lot of business people in the state. so he is counting on building a sort of backfire among what's left of the traditional republicans in kentucky. and there are a lot of them to win that primary. >> josh, you are not supposed to be able to run a poll on an incumbent senator that shows him in some kind of tie with the other party's challenger in this case allison grimes. an incredibly powerful poll for her. the incumbent is supposed to be polling ahead. challenger has to play catchup. she is there. >> i don't find it surprising. we have seen national poll numbers on congress, republican party. and they're completely down. because of, because the sthut dosthut -- the shutdown was unpopular. the leader of the party that shut down the government is going to be associated with that. i am not surprised he is behind in the polls. i think he is running a smart

campaign within the situation. i note one thing about him having had the proxy fight with rand paul. he hired rand paul's campaign manager. to run his campaign. in a nonaggression pact with rand paul. he is trying to not allow that. >> josh barrow. howard fineman. thank you for joining us. >> thank you. >> coming up, a republican governor thinks the republican party is waging a war on the poor. that's next. you remember the tragic story last year of the 17-year-old boy who was shot and killed, because he was sitting in the back seat of a car playing loud music on the rid adio. his mother testified at a senate hearing today. you will hear her in her own words in tonight's "rewrite." he. soon, the world's most intelligent servers, designed by hp, will give ups over twice the performance,

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>> you know, because people are poor doesn't mean they don't work hard. because people are poor doesn't mean that -- it sometimes means they couldn't pull themselves up by their bootstraps at some point in time. when you die and get to the, get to the, the meeting with st. peter, he is probably not going to ask you much about what you did about keeping government small. but he is going to ask you what you did for the poor. >> that was republican ohio

governor explaning his new testament base sd support medicd expansion which will enabling 275,000 poor ohioans to join medicaid. in the spotlight, the republican war on the poor. that its jos his phrase, a war e war. he was condemned last week for defying the legislature and expanding medicaid using a little known panel, the controlling board to vote for it. "the wall street journal" wrote, governor kasich's behavior doesn't speak well for his governing judgment as he prepared to run for higher office in 2016. we don't mean the after life. republicans get a vote for st. peter does. but "the wall street journal's" condemnation did not stop. governor kasich from saying this to "the new york times." i am concerned about the fact there seems to beep a war on the poor. if you are poor, some how you

are shiftless and lazy. you know what the very people who come plplain to ask their grandparents itch they worked at wpa. >> a federal jobs program enacted during the depression in 1933. joining me, the washington bureau chief for mother jones and msnbc political analyst. david, striking a republican guch n governor using the phrase war on the poor, to describe what his republican colleagues are doing. >> using it as a negative owe posed to a positive. you and i are old enough to remember that john kasich is no liberal progressive moderate republican. when he was in the house of representatives here in washington, el bow to elbow wit newt gingrich, budget cutter wanted government small. favored tax cuts for the wealthy and really clamping down on the

budget. but he is playing a traditional role here. there are republicans for decades who owe their very, they were fiscal tighttightwads. they believed in social programs helping the poor. bob dole very much like that. i've remember talking recent leap during the sequester cuts to felt low who runs meals on whemz in texas. he said, listen, republicans used to be our best friend. they would love meals on wheels. i can't get them to return our calls. what kasich is doing, how far, the party, conservatives, all conservative movement has moved off to the right. the worst thing to be is a compassion nl conservaticom compassionate conservative. >> i think he realized there were times when he was pushing ohio too far to the right.

his poll numbers have suffered because of that. latest poll in kates he is -- latest poll indicates. he is at 35. he is at 38. bad looking poll for an incumbent governor. politics is what moves governors' opinions all the time. and the fact that hea ends up i the right place on this particular question whether it be through politics or some other thought process, the fact is, he did bring this medicare expansion to ohio. >> it's interesting. he has a brother who suffers from mental illness. a lot of his explanation,just -- justification, these laws will help mentally ill, low income americans get help they need. you don't hear it from congress. the news out of congress they're

cutting food stamps billions of dollars. the other thing here, john kasich is shining the light on. perhaps to the irritation of fellow republicans is that obama care work. i mean not the website. but hon drepdz undreds of thous americans have gotten health care through expansion of medicaid which is significant. one of the biggest parts of obama care. here is something again. how are they going to repeal this? republicans are going to come in. say okay, $275 americans in ohio. and the hundreds of thousand. don't know if we are up to millions yet. throughout the country. we are going to repeal that and take that away from you. and throw you back out there without any insurance. again. once again parts of obama care are working as promised. not the news you get these days for good reason. but john kasich is making the

case publicly, the medicaid expansion is a good deal for ohio. which means a good deal for the states who haven't taken it. thank you for joining me. >> my pleasure. >> the senate held a hearing on stand your ground and heard the dramatic testimony of a mother who believes florida's stand your ground law has contributed to her son's killing. that's in "the rewrite." [ susan ] ...as though he had never left.

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the k.i.n.d. fund, as most of you know raises money to buy desks for schools in africa that have no desks, schools where the kids have never seen desks. we have raised over $5.7 million since beginning the fund on this program. and much of that money has come from children here in the united states who have been inspired to help kids, their own age, who have so much less than they do. the kindergarten and first grade at the wildwood school in los angeles got together to do what they can to help kids in need of desks.

>> at wildwood elementary school we were learning about acts of kindness. and then we saw this. >> this is what going to school in malawi looks like. no desks. not one. >> we knew what we had to do. >> dear neighbors, i am in kindergarten at wildwood school. for a service project my class is raising money to buy desks for school children in malawai. >> 1,545.37. way to go wildwood school.

if you would look to help the kind fund. go to thelastword.msnbc.com. and "the rewrite" is next. this is not a safe thing to do. be careful babe. there should be some way to make it easier [ doorbell rings ] let's open it up and see what's cookin'. oh i like that. look at this it's got a handle on it. i don't have to climb up. this yellow part up here really catches a lot of the dust. did you notice how clean it looks? morty are you listening? morty? [ morty ] i'm listening! i want you to know morty are you listening? morty? they're the days to take care of business.. when possibilities become reality. with centurylink as your trusted partner,

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♪ >> in "the rewrite" rewriting stand your ground laws, the objective of the senate judiciary subcommittee e that held a hearing today. the focus was on florida where so-called justifiable homicides have tripled since the stand your ground law was enacted there. senators were asked to consider jordan davis. lucia mcbath told the senators about her son jordan, the 17-year-old boy shot and killed sitting in the back seat of a car by a man who objected to the loud music coming from the car. michael dunn was arrested the next day and is a waiting trial in florida for first degree

murder. lucia mcbath believes that florida's stand your ground law emboldened michael dunn to feel he had a right to settle an argument albout loud music with something louder his gun. >> i appear before you, my son jordan was shot and killed last november while sitting in the back seat of a friend's car listening to loud music. the man who killed him opened fire on four unarmed teenagers even as they tried to move out of harm's way. that man was empowered by the stand your ground statute. i am here to tell you there was no ground to stand. there was no threat. no one was freeing to invade his home. his vehicle, nor threatened him

or his family. there was a vociferous argument about music during which the accused, michael dunn, did not feel that he was treated with respect. you're not going to talk to me look that, he shouted. as he sprayed the car jordan sat in with bullets. killing him instantly. when jordan's friend tried to back the car away, mr. dunn aimed his handgun and fired off several more round. nine total. pierced the car. there are any number of ways that this interaction might have gone. but there was only one way it could have ended once a gun entered the equation. in his glove box, michael dunn kept a 9 millimeter

semiautomatic gun along with two loaded magazines. once heap had had -- once he ha unloaded his gun at my son and his teenage friend. he went back to his hotel, ordered a pizza and slept. he left the scene and made no attempt to call police. he retreated. but only after he killed my son. the next morning he was arrested two hours away. those are hardly the actions and motives of someone who was quaking with fear. he was my only child. he was raised with love and learning and ape clear und clea understanding of right and wrong. i have been without jordan now since thanksgiving 2012, without him last christmas and on his

birthday last february. i never got to take his prom picture or see him graduate from high school. i can tell you all about him. about his easy smile, his first girlfriend, and his plans to join the marines. i can tell you how he loved his dad's gumbo and how they both rooted for the new york giants. but you can never really know my boy because an angry man who owned a gun kept it close at hand and chose to demonstrate unbridled hate res ored one bal evening for reasons i will never understand. with your help and willingness to bring our laws back to the true tents of justice you can lift this nation from its internal battle in which guns rule over right.

you have the power to restore hope to a nation crying out for justice. and i pray that you hear the will of the lord. thank you. [ male announcer ] the founder of mercedes-benz once wrote something on a sheet of paper and placed it in his factory for all to see. ♪ four simple words where the meaning has never been lost. the challenge always accepted. and the calling forever answered. ♪ introducing the all-new 2014 s-class. mercedes-benz. the best or nothing. introducing the all-new 2014 s-class. maestro of project management. baron of the build-out. you need a permit... to be this awesome. and you...rent from national.

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as budget tensions continue on capitol hill, we wonder itch democrats and republicans can ever find a way to talk to each other. coming up, a lesson in civility. an atheist and priest walk into a tv studio. penn gillette and father martin will join me next. [ female announcer ] stop using filters to make your skin look flawless.

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that's what ameriprise financial does. that's what they can do with you. ameriprise financial. more within reach. >> at an event last night for the new york young republican club, tom coburn was asked about civility in the senate. and he actually said this -- >> there's no comity with harry reid. i think he hae -- i think he's an absolute [ bleep ]. >> what hope is there for governing of this country if the peoplen wa ein washington do now how to talk to people they disagree with. tonight in a last word expeermeexpe expeerment that could go wrong, we will show washington huh to respectfully disagree. we'll do it with two people who disagree on something much bigger than what the top income

tax rate should be. joining me chaplain of the last word, father james martin. and atheist penn gillette author of every day is an atheist holiday, now out in paperback. you are a carnie, always selling stuff. get your selling stuff out of the way. >> we have a movie out, going on the film market. 17th. >> directed by teller. >> produced by me. i am in it. i am making director's cut at fundanything.com. crowd funding it. big news on that movie is two of the people who are not the stars, but secondary. >> casting news. >> we have casting news. one of the police officers, will be played by lawrence o'donnell. >> i'm playing a cop. >> a police officer. >> the other police officer his partner. a >> played by glenn beck.

>> only penn jillette. >> fundanything.com. you will see, lawrence and glen as the big team coming up, the police team that kind of buddy with a little tension, good cop/bad cop. >> okay. father martin of course, patiently sitting through this. he has nothing to sell other than improvement in your spiritual life. so, what i was thinking here is that, that we can -- show washington how to have a real conversation when people disagree. now washington is usually, trying to do something, right, democrats want to do something. republicans want to do something. they have to convince the other side to do it why. don't you start us off, father, by making the case to penn about what he, how much better his life would be if he saw faith and good wait you do. >> in five minutes. >> you have five minutes to convert penn jillette. >> i will be unable to do that. i respect your opinion.

i have a lot of friend that are atheists, agnostics. not a new thing to me. it is hard to convert people. other than to invite them. what i would do is talk about possible spiritual experiences you have had. i think conversion as pope francis. >> let's does that here. >> pope francis himself called conversion pious nonsense, i think more of an invitation. jesus says, jesus doesn't say follow me or i will hit you over the hetad. jesus says come and see. >> this is what i encountered over and over. we did a show, penn and teller b.s. we would attack christianity. we would attack all sorts of religions. what we would get bakck, we expected hostility. what we got again and again. gentle sweetness. one of the thing that happens when you are an atheist, you get

tweets. letters, i am so sorry religious people treat you'd so badly when you want to atheism. i think one of the reasonize want to atheism, religious people treated me so well. my dad was a christian. we were very, very close. there is a feeling love and security that can make you very happy with the life we have here. and sometimes the gentleness and the love itself is what gives you the confidence to maybe, not be, not be reaching for things. this is what i encounter all the time. the number of people that are aggressive and unpleasant in religion to me in my, life, is just about zero. maybe one or two. >> do you feel threatened by atheism? >> no. i can't stress this enough. a lot of my friend are atheists. just reflecting to day. had a lunch with a friend. ing anostic. >> you have seen priests go through crisis of faith. where priests have times where they're not so sure about the basic existence of god? >> i have seen a lot of people

gone through that. not surprising. atheism -- you know is a -- to, to many respects a reasonable thing to -- to sort of posit from looking around at the world. i don't posit that or believe in that. it is reasonable for people to think that. it important to accompany them. not hit them over the head with something. really that does no good. that's not the way jesus acted. that's not the way a christian should act. it is invitation. the word i like better. >> the argument we came up with together backstage when we came out here. an argument that isn't given for relij in. if i were to convert here on this tv show we would both make a lot of money. >> all right. >> i think it is good for you show. a youtube hit. >> our books would do well. >> the jesuit guide to almost everything. a book in march called "jesus" about jesus. >> the modest sales pitch. that's, modestly done. >> well done. >> he's wearing kind of, he has

the whole symbol there. so i have to talk about what i am doing. i don't have a t-shirt. >> i can't do magic. i can't do magic. >> well, under some definitions of magic, transsubstantiation would be kidded. . >> would be considered. >> do you think atheism is presented in an overly aggressive way, or a way that doesn't serve it? >> put anything in that sentence in place of atheism. you have it being right. >> yeah, yeah. >> of course. of course, it is presented badly. everybody has their own personality. their own way of doing things. way of talking. the most important thing, only thing. i think we can agree on this strongly. what i think is most important is that people actually talk about it. the quickest way to find out that you are wrong is to state your position. and the one, the one kind of person i have a lot of trouble understanding is the kind of