. one woman capitalizes on people's frustrations by creating a profitable business. we take you to the anger room coming up next on "your business." >> announcer: small businesses are revitalizing the economy and american express open is here to

help. that's why we're proud to present "your business" on msnbc. ♪ hi there everyone. i'm jj ramberg and welcome to "your business." the show that champions entrepreneurship giving you tips and advice to help your small business grow. it was one year ago that superstorm sandy decimated the new york and new jersey coasts, costing billions of dollars in damage to countless homes and thousands of small businesses. one of those small businesses was surfside bagels in rock away beach new york owned by new york city fireman scott edwards and tim keenan. the store suffered severe water damage, flooding pretty much destroyed their entire store and all of their equipment. back in march, we brought in our makeover team to help tim and scott get back on their feet.

turning this terrible time into an opportunity to take a hard look at their business and try to rebuild it into something even better than it was before the storm. we helped them with a new logo and menu designs. they took our suggestion and offered a customer loyalty program an they also hooked up with a food delivery service saving them time and money. we are happy to say that all of this has resulted in a 15% increase in revenue since the summer. with a much more consistent flow of customers and in their neighborhood, they're not alone. with the great strides in rebuilding the infrastructure around them, other businesses destroyed by the storm have reopened as well. so on this one-year mark, we wish all of the small business victims of sandy good luck and best wishes. how do you protect your business and customers when it's sledgehammers and broken glass. it's tough for one entrepreneur

in texas making anger her business. >> when you go in there and that door closes and you hit your first item, something snaps. i've seen it in every last customer i've had. something snaps. >> it's like a scene from the movie office space. >> there is no paper jam. >> a place where your fantasy of destroying your office or your living room or kitchen can come true. welcome to the anger room. >> what did people say to you when you wanted to start a business where people could come in and destroy things. >> they said i was crazy. it was a wild idea and they can't believe i came up with such a crazy idea. donna alexander is the founder and ceo. she thought that people needed a place to blow off some steam. for $25 a pop, she gives them

that freedom to destroy anything they want with their weapon of choice. >> i picked the crowbar. as you can imagine, running a business where people are running around hitting things with sledgehammers and crowbars and baseball bats has the potential to get scary, actually a lot scary. so before welcoming any customers, donna had to prepare for every possible scenario. >> this is a three-page waiver. it releases us from liability if you injure yourself, death occurs, anything happens, we're not responsible for it. so it basically protects us and you as the consumer. >> she also videotapes every session just in case. >> the camera does not lie. we put it up in the rooms. we let them know we're videotaping for our liability reasons but they can also

purchase their own videos if they want to. >> does anyone ever get hurt? >> no, not yet. not so far and hopefully they won't. >> there's flying glass. it seems like ripe for getting hurt in there. >> yeah, you would think that. but once they have on the safety gear and what not, it protects them and shields them from all that. if they do get hurt, it will be probably an action that they did, they may whack themselves by mistake or something like that. >> protecting her business and customers also means strog say no sometimes. >> i have customers ask to bring in pick axes, chainsaws, machetes, pocket knives, scissors, all the things that's like a big no. no way in the world. we have requests for guns all the time. i mean, we are in texas. that's not anything unusual. but we get that. we get it a lot. a whole lot. >> today, the anger room is located in an industrial section of dallas. but finding office space wasn't

easy. originally, it took her three years to find someone who would rent to her. >> i've had hundreds of noes when it came to real estate and landlords and things like that because they believe that maybe we might tear up the facilities, which is understandable. and then some people just don't like the concept because they think we would attract crazy people and they don't want crazy people in their building. >> the clients run the gamut, from construction workers to administrative assistants. from bheem are angry at their bosses to people who want exercise. >> is there something you're angry about or here for fun? >> i'm here for fun. i can probably think of things that make me mad. >> we all can. i was saying i've been on the phone with the dmv for an hour. i was angry when i got in there. >> the stuff to destroy comes from the street. making it cost effective. >> people constantly have trash

every day all day. we use all of that. we go on pickup days and we pick up the large items that people don't want anymore or can't be used anymore. those are the items that we use to operate off of. >> today the anger room has three rooms that can be set up like anything you want. but donna sees this as just the start of -- >> if all goes well, in five years, i think you'll see a huge facility, 10,000 square feet, loud announcements, people announcing when you come in the room, video displays showing off what you've done to the room, demolished it. weapons coming up from the ground. extensive choices. and multiple, multiple types of room settings. ideally what i would like to do is be able to provide room settings of every type to do retail stores or bars and we can do airplanes with the seats and things like that.

your customers don't necessarily have to be swinging crowbars for your small business to face serious liability issues. you need to protect yourself. we have the perfect panel to discuss this crucial issue. john tapper is the host and executive producer of bar rescue and the president of the nightlife and bar media group. his new book is called raise the bar, an action-based method for maximum customer reaction. andrew romans is part of georgetown angels, an investment group funding technology startup. he's author of the entrepreneurial bible to venture capital, inside secrets from the leaders in the start-up game and jennifer hill is a venture attorney at gunderson, debt mer and an entrepreneur yourself. you counsel lofts entrepreneurs. now you need to write a book. >> apparently i do. >> next time i'll have the book. john, we'll start with you.

when you talk about liability, you have to think of bars. >> we're in the risk management business but this redefines risk. by the nature of this business. i'm not an attorney but i would wonder where you can define neglect by creating an environment neglectfully where somebody could get hurt versus them hurting themselves. i don't know that legal distinction. i know that a slippery floor, i hard floor, an unlit step, somebody with a big device in their hand all spell lawsuits, all spell danger. when i look at a businesslike this, i see a conscientious entrepreneur who started a business she believes in. but the nature of the business is worrisome. i worry how you survive without a lawsuit somewhere. >> but i mean, you're an attorney, lawsuits lurk everywhere. you said slippery floor, shadowy step. can you protect yourself against everything? >> no, you can't. nothing is foolproof. she's very smart, she has a detailed limitation of

liability. but also she seems to know her customers really, really well. she says no a lot. she's not letting every person in her doors. she's thoughtful about her environment, about what's in it but also who she's bringing into the establishment to create a safe experience and limit her liability. >> it's obvious, she needs to think about liability. it's obvious when you start a bar. when you're starting a technology company too, there are all kind of issues that can come up. how do you think through them all before they happen? >> there's a lot of start-up risk with any new company. for this one, i think there's two things. if you can get an ironclad pre-nup, you can get a waiver that says i'm not going to sue you. i think you got the waiver on one side and the other one is insurance. >> you have to just strike the balance. is the risk worth it? >> yes. it sounds like for her she's come up with a way for it to be profitable. >> right, right. for bars too. how often do you come across someone who didn't think through

everything in the beginning and find themselves in a tough situation later on? >> it can happen often. sometimes it's more the concept or model. for example, teen clubs can create an awful liability when liquor is snuck in the door. by the nature or design of that business, you got to make sure everything is tightened down with every conceivable protection you can imagine by the nature of the business. >> it comes down, you need to consult with your lawyer, have a long conversation with a lawyer before you start any business. >> she's on a business and it will probably pivot and change directions. you know, maybe she should -- she's in texas. people want to bring chainsaws, i don't know about that. let them shoot guns. >> i'm going to end this discussion by letting you respond to let them shoot guns. >> texas is a unique place. i'm sure this entrepreneur is not only keeping perfectly in line with state law but also consulting a lawyer to be sure

what she can do and what she can't do. >> it was a fun piece to do and fun to talk about also. thank you. legal advice can be costly and sometimes involves information you can find with your own searching. to help you get the basic legal information you need, check out our app of the week. in teleconnect mobile, there's a free app that helps businesses find key legal information by state. the app especially focuses on data concerning financial decisions. also, get updates on federal tax laws, rate charts for loans and information on a variety of state requirements. it may be hard to believe but thanksgiving is just around the corner. soon after the beginning the beginning of the holiday shopping season frenzy. that means that now is the time for small business owners to start getting ready for november 30th. that is small business saturday. the push to get customers to shop local kicks off into high gear this week and you need to be proactive to get them to

think small. >> november 30th is the fourth annual small business saturday. a day people around the country get together to support the small businesses that create jobs and keep our neighborhoods vital. small business owners know how important the holiday shopping season is, which is why small business saturday comes between black friday and cyber monday. it's a campaign to get customers to skip the big box stores and shop locally. >> with all the publicity around black friday, people tend to be distracted and go to the mall and business is down, it's great to redirect people back to the town center. it's not only traffic on that day, but we're also -- it reminds them to shop throughout the holiday season. we're really excited about small business saturday. it's been a godsend for us. it's increased our sales and traffic and enthusiasm. >> in 2012, consumers spent an estimated $5 billion shopping

local on small business saturday. in addition, president obama and government officials in all 50 states supported small business saturday, including members of the u.s. senate. so what can you do to take advantage of small business saturday and get customers to support you? if you go to shop small.com, you'll find free resources, including marketing tools to help raise awareness, promote your business and attract new customers. get personalized signage and online banners to promote on your blog or website to help make small business saturday a memorable event for your business. you'll also find e-mail copy templates to send out to rally your potential neighborhoods and customers. and helpful language to use on social media. >> instagram has been really great for us. i'm able to kind of post pictures and i think people connect more if they see a picture of a product and a caption saying, you can get this

for 20% off on small business saturday. >> in addition, you and your small business community can create events and pro moepgss throughout the day and contact local media to get the word out. >> small business saturday last year was very good for us. this year we'll be offering free refreshments, a gift with purchase and some flou wewers f the ladies who come in and shop. >> if you can help keep business driving, it helps us all in the long run. that first e-mail that you send to customers can be crucial to establishing an ongoing relationship with them. here are five tips to make sure your welcome e-mail delivers courtesy of small business computing.com. >> one, don't leave them guessing. the from line is one of the first things people see in the crowded inboxes before the subject line. make sure there's no question about who the e-mail is from.

two, where did we meet again? new subscribers may not remember signing up. be sure to remind them in your welcome e-mail. three, maintain your branding. the colors, images and font should match your company's look. >> four, offer additional resources. it's reasonable to assume that your subscribers signed up for your newsletter because they're interested in your company. give them ways to know what you do. link to the blog or faq page. five, reward them, provide a giflt of tangible value for your subscribers. it can be as simple as an e-book or special discount. this way your customers feel that subscribing and staying subscribed is worth it. still to come, we answer a couple of your small business questions. this morning, we've got one about dealing with so-called patent trolls. and speaking of trolls, you'll find plenty in those popular halloween haunted houses. and they'll be breathing easier thanks to some brilliant

entrepreneurs who invented a formula for nontoxic fog. ♪ smoke on the water building animatronics is all about getting things to work together. the timing, the actions, the reactions. everything has to synch up. my expenses are no different. receiptmatch on the business gold rewards card synchronizes your business expenses. just shoot your business card receipts and they're automatically matched up with the charges on your online statement. i'm john kaplan, and i'm a member of a synchronized world. this is what membership is. this is what membership does.

during this spooky time of year, you can find all kinds of small businesses capitalizing on the scary halloween season. that was the case for some nashville entrepreneurs who, while concocting a nontoxic fog for haunted houses accidentally discovered additional revenue streams. >> halloween is definitely a all hands-on deck. we're going full force. we've got extra staff in because during this time of year, halloween is a major part of our business. i like fog. it's kind of fun to blow smoke for a living. >> nashville-based chris and adam do blow smoke for a living. they manufacture and sell their own special formula for hypoallergenic smoke fluid used to supply the folk machines that fill the haunted houses that creep you out at halloween.

>> when we started the business, it was more of a necessity for a family entertainment center. >> a necessity because they worked at a family-run laser tag center which used fog and it was something which triggered chris' asthma, smelled terrible and irritated customers' eyes. >> i had some respiratory issues with the fluid we were using. so we set out to try and at least make a version that was for me breathable. >> with nothing on the market to solve these problems, they worked with a chemist to formulate their own pharmaceutical grade artificial fog making fluid. they never considered marketing it until another laser tag owner named mike took notice. >> he said, who does your fog? this stuff is great, it's not burning my eyes. where can i get this? we make it. he said, will you sell me ten gallons? >> at first, the fog business seemed to have limited potential for profits. >> i said if we ever sell 55

gallons of this, it will be a miracle when we first started. all of a sudden, we're getting ten times more calls in october than we do any other time of the year. why is that? >> that was a wake-up call which they answered. by asking their customers one simple question. what do you use it for? we're a haunted house. every haunted house uses fog. it was just one of those, wow, we didn't know that. >> the more they listened to the haunted house operators, the more new products they discovered they could manufacture. >> so they began to tell us, we want a ground fog that lingers a little longer than most ground fogs do. because we're using it outside in grave yards. okay. so we went and designed an outdoor-type ground fog. >> ground fog forgrave yards wasn't all they discovered at a trade show. >> you'll be at a trade show, my cousin is a fireman, he uses tons of it. note to self. firemen use this. so they went to all kinds of

shows, for firemen, boat builders, sewer inspectors and sky writers, which became markets for their fog. that's when the froggy founders found out that rock'n'roll performers were particularly interested in the allergy-free fog formula. ♪ >> craig fell kerr, lead singer for the hearts of saints is especially sensitive to the smells and irritants produced by typical fog-making machines. >> they have this stench and as a vocalist, i don't like things to stink and clog up my vocal cords. he's not the only one. the business has come a long way from the early days and the prospects seem great. we grow by a couple hundred percent every year or more. >> it it's time to answer some of your business questions. andrew and jen are back with us. the first one is about whether or not to apply for a patent.

>> in all my experience there's still one vexing issue. when do you patent something like your mobile app and is it worth patenting it? is it worth the time and money to papt ent aid mobile app? >> i'm starting with the investor and then the lawyer. >> i would say for a mobile app, the answer is no. you should put all of your money, all of your energy into growing the business, getting users, getting traction. lawyers are like gravity -- water under gravity. they're going to tell you maybe you should. they're trained to do it, they know how to do that. they'll have you do it, they'll bill you later, maybe now. >> by the time you get your patent, your product may be a failure or a success. takes a lot of time and money. >> absolutely. it's more like the lean startup. minimal viable product. if you're in biotech and it's the molecules, you want to

patent that. intellectual property protection for sure. but for a mobile app, it's a clear answer. don't waste any money trying to patent. >> what do you think, jen. >> i think most decent patent lawyers will say the same thing. it's not worth patenting. the bar is still high. the laws are changing in this regard. patent, they need to be -- the item needs to be new or novel, nonobvious. it has to be something with a utility. mobile apps, the technology is changing so quickly. by the time your patent is filed and gets through the process, it may not even be a product on the market anymore. there are plenty of other intellectual property measures that you can use to protect it and certainly if you're curious, talk to a patent lawyer. it is a cost benefit for that particular type of technology. >> there is stuff you want to do. i think -- i remember being an entrepreneur myself before an investor. it was pillsbury was my lawyer.

go to the u.s. patent website and i registered the name of the business and things like that. you probably want to like register your name, protect that. that's the real -- if you're a mobile app it costs 5k to get it out. your name is the intellectual property, not the technology. let's move on to the next question. it's about protecting yourself and your company. >> one much my biggest fears has always been having a larger company or a patent troll bully us around with legal threats, which we just don't have the time and money for. what i'd like to know, what is the best way to protect yourself from legal threats of bigger companies or patent trolls? >> that's interesting. his point is they don't have the time or money. if someone goes after them and they're not violating a patent or doing anything wrong, they still may not be able to fight it. >> you don't necessarily need to fight it. prevention early on can save you time and money if you get a

nasty gram from a troll. you should find a patent lawyer that is really experienced in this particular area. even better in that particular industry of technology. frankly, some money on a sternly worded letter to push back can make things go away. the thing about patent trolls, they work in numbers. they're looking to send these notices out to as many companies as possible. they hope that you either roll over or settle. you don't need to actually go through protracted litigation to get them off your back. there are interim steps you can take. >> have you seen this happen a lot? >> i haven't. i was wondering if i'm naive on this. you know, i would say don't worry about this. don't even put your energy into the negative thinking of like a patent troll. i think if a big corporate is looking at what you're doing, that's good news. maybe you can sell your company to that big company. this is m and a is where i get excited or i'm going to get money out of this thing. same for the entrepreneur. i think that patent trolls, wouldn't worry about it. i'd be more excited about there's a big company looking at

what you're doing that you could sell to. >> finally, one last question. it's from an entrepreneur who wants to know what to do about insurance. >> surprisingly, we just learned that we have outgrown our current insurance policy due to our increased volume, which is a good thing but now we have to source out new insurance. what are three good things to ask when moving to a higher level of insurance company? >> i like this question. i like when people ask what can i ask? you need to know -- oftentimes you go in and don't know what you're talking about. any suggestions either of you? >> i would say, everything about your business is the network of people around your business. so like the investors, your co-founders, your advisers, your insurance company, the network around your business is your business. so like for me, i prefer to do business with people that i know and like and i trust rather than just do a price auction. >> how do you even know what to

ask? you have a big network. but for someone without the same network you do, you're calling people up. >> i would ask three important things. first the coverage. make sure the coverage for the insurance you need is the same or better than what you had before. just because it's the same title, business interruption insurance doesn't mean the terms you have now are the same ones. you want to make sure your coverage is equal or better. the second is the financial rating of the insurance company. a lot went belly up during the recession and don't necessarily have the greatest reputation. a company with an rating of b plus or higher is generally a good quality company. the third thing i would ask is about their claims experience because they may be trying to sell you on the coverage but do they have experience for the parade of horribles that might happen. if you're a technology company that deals with financial or health care data and you get sued for a privacy breach, make sure that your insurance carrier actually understands how to handle that. thank up guys so much for

your advice. very helpful today. thanks a lot. we are always checking out twitter to gain a little wisdom from our fellow entrepreneurs and investors. here's what we found this week. aaron levy ceo of box.com tweets start-ups win by focusing on early adopters who represent the masses. big companies lose by focusing on later -- wine entrepreneur with good advice. i never think the work is beneath me. a huge issue for many winning players. mike pitt, founder of marketing fundamentals with this truism. #entrepreneurs. failure is not as scary as mediocrity. thanks so much for joining us today. to learn more about today's show, click on our website. it is openforum.com/yourbusiness. you'll find the seg mend and web exclusive content with more information to help your small business grow.

you can follow us on twitter @msnbc your biz. don't forget to become a fan of the show on facebook. next week, her functional product line was booming. she needed the right people to sell it. >> i realized i couldn't be in all places. so much of the work is training stores how to sell the product. finding salespeople was crucial to the growth of my business. >> what this entrepreneur learned about hiring successful sales reps will benefit any small business. until then, i'm jj ramberg. remember, we make your business our business. building animatronics is all about getting things to work together. the timing, the actions, the reactions. everything has to synch up.