chan friesing voters, perhaps you'll listen to the pragmatic one. want to win elections again, stop trying to suppress the vote and start trying to win it. all right. that does it for "the cycle." and speaking of winners, martin bashir, et cetera all yours. >> thank you so much. i wish. it's tuesday, november the 12th. and why don't we just cut to the chase? ♪ >> insight into what a head-to-head match-up of chris christie and hillary clinton would look like. >> the numbers are really interesting. >> clinton leading by ten points nationally. >> clinton was never this dominate in 2005 and 2006. >> christie leads among whites, seniors and rich people. >> old white guys, stay alive. >> he starts the 2016 race very close to where rudy guiliani did. >> 18 million cracks in it. >> nobody wants to listen to the loser. >> the split is far more stark among african-americans. >> if you want to triple your

african-american vote as a republican, show up. >> clinton would lead, and this is not a typo, 83-4. >> this myth that because shaquille o'neal did a commercial for chris christie, he magically gets black voters. >> if we can blast 50 women into space, we will someday launch a woman into the white house. >> it may be the momentous date of 11/12/13, but for some, 11/8/2016 cannot come quickly enough. with both republicans and democrats hitching their white house aspirations to those supposed inn inevitables. today in new york, they meet for their first financial strategy meeting of ready for hillary. and they're already getting a jump on the ads.

>> if we can blast 50 women into space, we will someday launch a woman into the white house. >> and while that super pac is not directly affiliated with mrs. clinton herself, she certainly is not shying away from high-profile appearances, doing a whirlwind tour of democratic constituencies in california over the weekend, and preparing to receive the american patriot award at the national defense university on thursday. now, as mrs. clinton well knows, front runners don't always end up as nominees. but our new polling shows her position is considerably more sound than that of the man anoipted as her would-be republican rival, mr. chris christie. you know, this guy. >> i'm the governor of new jersey, that's my job. i'm the governor of new jersey and my job is to run the state of new jersey. what i'm focused on is doing my job in the state of new jersey. >> yeah, right. and that's a good thing, because it looks likely that's a job he'll be keeping. in a hypothetical match-up,

christie finds himself falling far short of the former secretary nationwide. 44-34%. clinton wins in every region of the nation, including the south and midwest. furthermore, clinton's support reflects many of the trends of the 2012 election. she leads with young voters by 14 points. latinos by 11 points. and african-americans by a yawning chasm, 83-4%. that's to say african-americans actually like chris christie less than they like mitt romney who got a whopping 6% of the black vote in 2012. wow. but christie actually has a bigger problem with his own party. while two-thirds of democrats are ready to get behind hillary in a democratic primary, less than one-third of republicans are on board with mr. christie. that's all right. he's really not even thinking about 2016. seriously, he's super busy with that whole jersey thing.

>> i just hope he has time to record his not running for president robo calls. >> hi, this is chris christie. i'm not running for anything. i'm focused on being governor for new jersey. stop calling me. i don't want to play these sorts of games, speaking of which, boy, somebody needs to change the culture of d.c. christie, 2016. two completely unrelated words. >> two completely unrelated words. let's get right to our panel. here with us in new york is msnbc contributor, joy reid, managing editor of thegrio.com, and in seattle, msnbc john heilemann, coauthor of the book "double down." and john i've got to start with you. there is a lot in our poll to furrow the brow of mr. christie. but what is worse for him, do you think, clinton's national poll, her demographic dominance or his own tepid support from the gop? >> martin, certainly the third of those is the thing that would concern countries christie most. i think the head to head polling

against hillary right now is meaningless. it certainly is more -- the thing he has to worry about like every presidential candidate is how you win your party's nomination before you move on to thinking about the next battle, which is winning a general election. and chris christie has issues that come through in that poll. and i think in our book you'll also see he has some issues with his own background and issues that mitt romney's vetters when they looked to him for the vice presidential nomination were concerned with. there is no smoking gun in that record as we report in the book, but there are things that are going to get a lot more scrutiny over the course of the months ahead if he decides to get more serious about 2016. but john, as i read your book, i was torn between whether it was the vetting process that warned the romney team off or whether it was frankly chris christie's reluctance and his shared reluctance with his wife to run? which was it? >> both of those things, martin. no doubt -- i think, first of all, there's no -- what we report in the book, christie's

vetters -- the vetters on romney's team looked at christie's background and found a lot of things, some of which are in the public record, strictly speaking, but of which almost no one knows. for instance, most vividly the fact he was, and this is one of about 15 things, that he was at one point a lobbyist for the securities industry association of america when it was headed by bernie madoff. that was a thing they looked at and said this could be a mildly problematic thing in terms of 30-second ads. there was also christie's reluctance to take part in the vetting process, which is to say he agreed to be vetted and in a rather unusual move, he didn't provide a lot of the information that the vetters were looking for. i don't think i've ever actually seen that. mark and i, halpern and i, my coauthor, covered presidential politics for a long time. usually when someone agrees to be vetted, they turn over all the things the vetters asked for. in this case, we reported from the final vetting document. they said there were a lot of things, christie's health, his lobbying clients, about defamation lawsuit against him, about investment scandal

involving his brother, where he was not forthcoming with all the information they wanted, and their attitude was, if he's not answering the questions, the answer is bad. so these are all red flags, and, again, a big question is, how he handles those questions, when they get posed to him by national reporters over the course of the coming months. >> yeah. joy, i want to get to the details of the gop response to christie in a moment. but how on earth do you explain the fact that chris christie nationally is less popular than mitt romney? amongst african-americans? >> well, you know what, i think because -- for one thing, part of christie's problem in that poll is the word before the word chris, which is republican. and unlike in new jersey, where he can essentially run independent of the republican brand, if you put a poll out there, and you say, do you prefer republican chris christie or known quantity and democrat hillary clinton, he's going get clobbered, no matter what. and every republican who would have been in that poll would have gotten those same numbers. because at the end of the day,

absent of what happened in new jersey, where he paid a lot of money to not be on the ballot with a popular african-american, where he spent a lot of federal tax dollars, yours and mine. >> he did. >> awesome commercials. >> $25 million. >> and a one-issue candidate. in new jersey, that one issue, hurricane sandy, played very well. nationally, that one issue is going to draw nothing but scrutiny if he ever were to become the nominee. >> okay, joy. let's look for a moment at the real problem for chris christie. in the gop, he underperforms among men. among younger republicans, among higher-earning republicans. and among republicans in the southwest and midwest. i hate to tell him this. aren't those the people he has to win to win a primary? >> yeah, and he was -- sort of the case for chris christie, who really reminds me of no one more than rudy guiliani, who was another one-issue -- major horrible thing happens, you are the guy who spomded responded in a way we expect you to respond. you have strong media support in new york, which is your base,

your backyard. but nationally you don't play that well, because when you look at the person on a broad spectrum, they really don't look at good. and i think chris christie's biggest problem if he were to get through the hurdle -- because as you said, if he's underperforming, particularly among men, that's a major problem, because the republican party right now is down to older men, white men, white, married women and rich people. >> john, former secretary of state henry kissinger has said he would be delighted if christie were to become the 2016 nominee, but you write in your book a marvelous reference to a moment with kissinger, and risinging now with the aid of his cane, kissinger said, if you ask me whether governor christie knows anything about foreign policy, i would have to say he knows nothing about foreign policy. now john, is that why mr. christie couldn't conjure a single constructive response when he was asked about nuclear talks with iran on "meet the press" sunday? >> well, martin, i think you're appointmenting to something that's a relevant consideration. and it goes to the question.

i think joy is exactly right about the fact that chris christie is not a known quantity nationally. and one of the things that's going to happen as he goes forward, people are going to start asking questions about things that go beyond new jersey. i think -- i don't think he pretends to have foreign policy expertise. but, again, this is one of these things where as soon as he starts to look like he's actually running for president in a more aggressive way than he currently is, people are going to want to start to know what his positions are on national issues and particularly what his issues are on international issues, ask at this moment, there is no real evidence. he has given some speeches on american foreign policy in the past. he gave one at the reagan library that we wrote about in the book "double down" but it was a high-flying speech about american exceptionalism, not details about what's going on in iran right now. those are questions that, again, are going to come to him more and more and he's going to have to come up with answers. >> john heilemann, six references to your own book. thank you so much and joy reid, thank you. coming up -- >> i fell short on seven. >> a closer look inside those new health care enrollment numbers. republicans, you may want to

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with all but 15 legislative days in the year left to tackle subjects as varied as the budget and immigration, conservatives instead are focused almost exclusively on health care. however, republicans who think they have a 2014 winner would be wise to look at all the enrollment numbers being reported today. we're told the white house will release some specific numbers by the end of the week. but right now, "the wall street journal," quoting unnamed sources, says no more than 50,000 have signed up on the

federal exchanges. add in the nearly 50,000 who have signed up on the state exchanges, and you have no more than 100,000. a far cry from the 500,000 that the administration was reportedly hoping for. and yet, these enrollment numbers need to be judged in context, in part by the success that the state exchanges are clearly having. but also, by the success that the law's medicaid enrollment has had. today, the associated press quotes documents for ten of the 25 states finding that enrollment since october 1st is close to 500,000. oh, yes. and one of those states whose governor said they would not take additional medicaid funding? well, a study in june by the rand corporation found that such obstinacy will mean the states are sacrificing more than $8 billion a year in subsidies, leaving close to $4 million without insurance, contributing to the deaths of almost 19,000

annually. a more recent "new york times" piece similarly found this decision is costing hospitals, which serve the very poor at least $18 billion through 2020. joining us now is democratic congresswoman, jan schakowsky of illinois. good afternoon, ma'am. >> thank you for having me, martin. >> it's a pleasure. i am not one to absolve the administration of fault. yet when i look at these numbers, there is really only one conclusion, where republican obstructionism is at its strongest, the health care rollout is having its biggest problems. that's correct, isn't it? >> well, that's certainly true, that in the states that have not expanded medicaid, for example, the enrollments are down, because people can't get into the program. and this relentless three-and-a-half year campaign, nonstop, against enrollment in

obama care, particularly focused in areas where, you know, the tea party is strong and the opposition is great. is it any surprise that people are reluctant to sign up? but the other thing, martin is, we know that there's interest. and we saw it with the people that tried to go to the website. and as soon as healthcare.gov and it's getting better every day, gets better, those numbers, i think, will embarrass the republicans. >> okay. well, a former president has made an intervention today on the white house promise that if you like your plan, you can keep it. i'd like to you take a listen. >> i personally believe, even if it takes a change in the law, the president should honor the commitment the federal government made to those people and let them keep what they've got. >> now, i imagine, ma'am, that the white house will not be best pleased with that answer. but isn't the whole point of this reform to ensure a minimum standard that all insurers will

be required to provide? you know, of course we can all go back to a system where contraception was not included, where women couldn't receive mammograms. where mental health was not covered at all. but is that really preferable? i mean, is that what the republicans are saying? let's go back to that? >> well, two points, martin. the number-one cause of personal and bankruptcies in our country has been health care costs. and most of those people were insured, or at least they thought they were insured, and found out when they got sick or needed their insurance, that it really wasn't there for them. and the second point is, insurance companies will not be required to give everyone the policy they had. they'll be able, as they have in the past, been able to pick and choose. so if you've had a policy and you're sick, they don't have to offer you that policy again. they can go after the healthy people and say, oh, yes, you're welcome to stay insured in this

plan that doesn't cover the ten essential health benefits that are now required under obama care. >> yeah. let's shift, if we can, to tomorrow's bipartisan budget conference, or as you know, what republicans like to call another opportunity to shut down the government. one might be tempted to believe that given all of the polling and condemnation of republicans, there might actually be some hope of achieving a budget compromise this time around. or is that simply wishful thinking? >> well, they have to say that there will be a balanced approach. and that means that the republicans have to be willing to put revenue on the table. you know, martin, this country has never been richer. if you look at per capita gdp, it doesn't feel that way when you hear about austerity and we have to cut this and we have to cut that. it's because the income inequality is greater than it has ever been. and so in order to really

provide for what we need, the republicans are going to have to say that revenue is going to be a part of that. the democrats have always been willing to look at turning budgets in ways that don't really hurt people. and our number-one priority is to get rid of the sequester. to replace it with an honest budget that doesn't do this meat axe approach that is hurting so many people, so many children and seniors and low-income people. and even middle-income people. it's not a good plan. so that's what patty marie has said, let's eliminate the sequester, and let's have a balanced way to replace the budget. >> let's hope that there's some progress on that. representative jan schakowsky, thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you, martin. coming up, the day's top lines. never let a phony scandal go to waste. >> folks, what more is there to say, but benghazi, benghazi, benghazi!

[ laughter ] and i'm not the only one. >> i see criticism from the left, where they go, you guys are covering a phony scandal. "60 minutes" doesn't cover phony scandals. >> yes, another network covered it. that's how you know fox news' reporting is accurate. [ laughter ] it's just like their motto. we reporting, but you should really check with someone else. ♪ [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman, we've always been on the forefront of innovation. when the world called for speed... ♪ ...when the world called for stealth... ♪ ...intelligence... endurance... affordability... adaptability... and when the world asked for the future. staying ahead in a constantly evolving world. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman.

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in addition to the marines on the ground, the u.s. navy has sent the "u.s.s. george washington" carrying about 5,000 sailors in addition to four other navy ships. these ships are expected to arrive by the end of the week. also expected by friday or saturday is the british warship, "hms daring" which has critical equipment to make drinking water from sea water. nbc's ian williams is in manila. een ian. >> reporter: the philippine president has revised down the death toll from the devastating typhoon. he now says that at most, perhaps two-and-a-half thousand people died when the storm swept through the philippines last friday. he said the original estimate of 10,000 is what he called the emotional drama of the moment. but he thinks that was too high. now, a presidential spokesman

has also blamed the slow pace at which aid is getting through to some of these devastating communities. on the ex it tent of the devastation and the logistical problems they're encountering. but he said the airports are being cleared, ports are being reopened and roads being cleared of the debris. he pledged every filipino that needs aid will receive it. one international aid organization we spoke to said the problem now wasn't getting the aid into the airports. he quoted tacklaban, but getting from the airport to town because of vehicles. there were also issues with storage. meanwhile, more than 20 countries have pledged a massive amount of help to the philippines. the forefront, of course, the u.s. aircraft carrier, "u.s.s. george washington" is on its way here, due to arrive thursday. marines already on the ground. another problem today, efforts hampered by the rain, the result

of another tropical depression sweeping in. though thankfully, this won't directly affect those devastated areas. but it still complicated a task, which is really only at an edge stage. the needs being enormous, martin. >> ian williams, thank you. we learned moments ago, the president spoke with the president of the philippines today to express his deep condolences on behalf of the american people. and if you would like to contribute, there are plenty of ways of doing so. you can donate to the american red cross online at red cross.org, or redcross.org.ph. you can also give to unicef at unicef.o unicef.org/support. as well as to the u.n. world food program at wfpusa.org. all of this information is available at our facebook page, which is facebook.com/martinbashir. stay with us. the day's top lines are next. [ male announcer ] with only minutes left before kickoff,

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you'll get the guidance you need with the control you want. talk to us today. from drinking games to phony scandals, here are today's top lines. what is beer pong? >> scantly clad models and drinking games. >> models and beer pong. >> all part of a new anti obama care campaign. >> they held a tailgate party featuring the creepy uncle sam guy. we all went to college. >> thanks. i needed that. >> nothing wrong with a good tailgate party. >> folks, what more is there to say than benghazi, benghazi, benghazi! >> one of those hallowed names in all of journalism is "60 minutes." >> the legendary cbs news show is in damage control mode. >> you'll hear for the first time from a security officer who witnessed the attack. >> one small problem.

it was total bull [ bleep ]. >> nobody likes to admit they made a mistake. >> i see criticism from the left where they go you guys are covering a phony scandal. >> filled with information fox uncovered months ago. >> "60 minutes" doesn't uncover phony scandals. >> yes, another network covered it. that's now you know it's accurate. >> when i watched this last night, well, about time. >> you know, "60 minutes" is not the only victim here. >> oversight is important. >> lend forth graham! >> i want to perform oversight. >> blanch du braham has been holding appointments based on this report. >> the "60 minutes" story was not true. will you now end your threat to place a hold on the president's nominees? >> he's going to be whistling a very different dixie. >> no.

>> let's get right to our panel. joining us in new york is david corn of "mother jones" magazine. james peterson, director of africana studies. and igor of think progress. now i guess after "60 minutes" we can confirm it is a phony scandal. >> you didn't say it right. it's benghazi, benghazi, benghazi. a couple statistics. people at fox may not want facts. seven different congressional committees have been looking at this. >> seven. >> seven committees, thirteen hearings, forty staff abbreviation, 25,000 pages of documents and not one ufo alien has been discovered yet. >> this is correct. >> i don't want to be too glib about this. what happened at benghazi was indeed a tragedy. the state department did an investigation.

felt what happened with the security situation there leading to the deaths of the ambassador and three others was indeed awful. but what's even more awful is how the republicans have tried to turn this into an area 51, type of scandal. and even now, lindsey graham out there saying we just want to investigate. they have been investigating, and they haven't found anything to blame the white house for. >> yeah, that's true. professor, here's brian stelter of the "new york times" talking about questions of bias. take a listen to this. >> this wasn't a story that was breaking news. this was a story that they worked on for a year. >> right. that's what it becomes. >> that's why people wonder, did they come in with an agenda. >> professor, did this happen because of a conservative bias, some kind of agenda? >> i think stelter's point is important, which is it's so easy for everyone to talk about a liberal bias in media, which, by the way, for all intents and purposes does not exist when you look across the networks and think about it, there is no liberal bias. folks wanted to accuse this network of it. look how many other networks try

to say their centrist or fair and imbalanced and really lean to the right. talking about liberal bias is easy to do. much more difficult to understand that, listen, all journalists have biases. the question is whether or not they're going to apply those biases in the writing and work they're going to do. logan is a great reporter. she has done a got of great reporting for cbs and "60 minutes." i'm not sure if she is conservative or liberal. but clearly, there was some kind of agenda. if they took a year to produce and collect the information for this story, and this network and other folk have been talking about the nonscandal here. that this is not really a scandal. it's a tragedy, as david said. but in a tragedy what we should do is try to find out what happened. we should not be engaged in politicizing. and unfortunately, there are a couple different networks that have been doing that and too many politicos engaged. >>y gore, senator graham of south carolina says he'll filibuster all presidential nominees because of this now deburvd debunked report. is that a threat he can back up now? >> lindsay graham has been doing this very thing, threatening to

filibuster this nominee or that over benghazi. i think this is the third time he has said this. and every time, he's gotten burned. he demanded to know, who changed the talking points. well, it turned out it was the cia. and time and time again, he tried to connect this back to the white house, back to hillary clinton. and he has failed. and i think the real reason why this story keeps coming back is because of hillary clinton. that's really what this is all about. 2016, and hillary clinton. for lindsey graham, it's certainly the tea party and making sure he's on the right after moving to the middle on immigration. but in terms of why we keep hearing about this, i think it really comes back to the 2016 election. >> and also, david, isn't it because lindsay graham is now facing four -- four different tea party challenges in next year's primary? if he wasn't in so much trouble, he wouldn't be running this, would he? >> one is chamomile, one noncaffeinated, one earl gray. >> one dargeling.

>> i got one e-mail from a group, bold headline. lindsey graham is lying. why is he lying? because he let two of the nominees he put a hold on go through. so we keep saying why is he putting a hold on janet yellen? >> yeah. >> fed chair. >> yeah. or new head of homeland security. we're not going to have homeland security because of benghazi. tea party people are saying why delaet some people go through? it shows he's lying, under a lot of pressure. lindsey graham likes to portray himself as one of the adults in washington and then john mccain going up against the wacko birds that they call, ted cruz and rand paul. but i think he really put himself into a corner on this. he was looking for some tea party-like issue to anchor himself to. but unfortunately, it's pulling him down, glug, glug, glug. >> professor, wouldn't the republican party have a little more credibility if, as a caucus, they had not voted to

deny something like $300 million worth in security for international consulates and embassies? i mean, why doesn't lindsey graham stand up now, why distant paul ryan stand up now and say as a result of what happened, the tragic loss of life in benghazi, we are going to support a bill to increase security for our international staff? >> because that would be the ethical thing to do. and these folk are just purely engaged in politics. i'm sorry to say. and i think david is right here, as well. that lindsey graham has painted himself a little bit into a trap. he's going to be outflanked by multiple candidates in his primary. and so he needs benghazi now, really, just for his campaign. just to say i'm on the right or i'm on the right to myself. and at the end of the day, you know, you're right. we know that this congress did not fully fund the package for embassies or for security and so the irony of that -- of the benghazi tragedy is that we didn't get it right in the first place and we're not getting it right now because we're playing politics. >> right.

igor, do you think "60 minutes" went far enough in terms of answering the questions raised by their reporting? >> i don't think so. i don't think it's clear why this mistake was made in the first place, why after a year of reporting it came down to this. my en, was it an ideological kind of push on -- in terms of what the network was doing? was there maybe some kind of connection with the publisher of the book that is owned by the same company of "60 minutes?" there's a lot of questions here and they have to be forthright in answering them. and this is what the second, third time that cbs has found itself in this kind of position. we all remember memo gate and dan rather and what happened there. so why is this happening again? >> igor volski, ask david corn, thank you so much. up next, doughnuts. finally something rand paul could not have lifted from wikipedia. stay with us. ♪ [ woman 1 ] why do i cook?

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[ female announcer ] call an allstate agent and get a quote now. has anybody ever been on the internet? have you ever seen crack pots on the internet who say all kinds of crazy things? >> funny you should mention crack pots on the internet. senator paul. because we did see such an individual on the internet today. it's a clip from a speech in charleston monday night, where a certain kentucky senator decided to twist a recent fda ruling on transfats into a warning about the dangers of the obama administration and its new war on -- well, take a look and perhaps grab a cup of coffee. >> what comes after health care? somebody might someday say we're going to ban the big gulp. how would that be? oh, they already did that, sorry. but what's next? we've got health care, we've got the big dwgulp. you name it. they're coming after your doughnuts. did you hear they're coming after your transfat in your doughnuts. >> mckay coppins and gary

johnson from new mexico and 2012 candidate. mr. johnson, is it time for americans to start stocking up on their doughnuts and protecting them in underground shelters? >> you know, martin, i have sill yack disease. i'm allergic to gluten. if food is not labeled, i end up ingesting poison. a fundamental role of government is to protect us against individual groups that would do us harm. i think food label something essenti essential. it doesn't cost anything. the requirement of food labelling -- >> big government. that's what rand paul is saying. >> to me, that's not big government. that is allowing me to make a choice whether or not i want to consume something with transfats in it. now, i think if products that have transfats in them are clearly labeled that this product has transfats in it, let me just predict that that product will not be on the market for very long, because there is an awareness of

transfats that they won't be sold anymore. >> you're actually saying that duncan doughnuts and krispy kreme, top two retailers in the country -- i know a lot about doughnuts. there is a war on doughnuts, i think you both know which side i'm on. >> i'm on your side. i love doughnuts. >> they have already phased out transfats and customers didn't notice and it wasn't that much more expensive. >> here's the thing, mckay. isn't he using the exact same argument used over the gun debate? the same principle. and it's not an accident that he's doing that in a state which will be very important in 2016. >> are you suggesting that rand paul has presidential ambitions? >> no. >> martin? you would never. >> i wouldn't. >> no, look, if you strip away the hype bollic war rhetoric from this, it's a fundamental issue about government regulation, right? and that's what the libertarian republicans, governor skron son, has a different take. but what a lot of libertarian republicans oppose, is this idea that government can come in and

say this is -- these are the ingredients you can use in your food, right? but the other thing that at play here and why senator paul probably thinks this could catch on is that for about five years now, we have seen republicans really react harshly against michelle obama's crusade to make healthier eating habits throughout the country. >> reduce childhood obesity, which is at epidemic levels. >> we applaud michelle obama for doing that. yes, we are obese. we eat too much of the wrong kinds of foods, and we don't exercise enough. and thank you, michelle obama, for bringing about that awareness. >> were you judging me for eating the doughnut in the green room back there? >> mr. johnson, does it seem odd to you that he's attacking government in front of soldiers, or future soldiers, the citadel, when we know that many of those good men and women will end up needing government when they come back? one of the problems we have at the moment with the food stamp

slashing through the farm bill, and everything else that's happened. veterans have suffered. and yet he stands up there, and says, oh, forget government. >> well, see, i've got a different take on that. i think -- the take-away that i have from what he's saying is, and i agree with him completely, is that but for our military interventions, we would not have hundreds of millions of enemies to this country that we currently have, as a result of our military interventions. where i get crossways with when it comes to -- libertarians also stand for marriage equality, a woman's right to choose. >> you do. >> well, libertarians. i do, yes. immigration is a good thing. let's not build a fence across the border. that's crazy. nonmilitary intervention, yes. look, there is an alternative to bombing the world. and that alternative will probably -- could result in lessen mes to this country. >> why is it that when mr.

johnson sounds like that he sounds entirely coherent and someone who is plausible and is when we listen to rand paul, he makes ludicrous analogies and nonsensical statements about doughnuts? >> i think governor johnson, would you say that rand paul is a true libertarian? >> well, that's where i wanted to point out. i am crossways with rand paul on four issues. a woman's right to choose, marriage equality, drug policy, and yet rand paul would say that these should be state issues. i happen to think that marriage equality is a constitutionally guaranteed right. it kind of like driving your car from new mexico to texas. look, if i have a 17-inch tire in new mexico, i want that -- you know, to be able to roll into texas, even -- i don't want them to pass legislation that says i can't have a 17-inch tire. >> former new mexico governor, gary johnson, buzz feed's mckay coppins, which we are more time. thank you. coming up, one nation under the gun. is a knock on the door enough to get you shot?

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what is the value of a human life? it's not actually such an esoteric question, because government departments must make a calculation to decide how much should be spent to prevent a single death. so the environmental protection agency set the value of human life at $9.1 million, in proposing restrictions on air pollution. and the food and drug administration declared that life is worth $7.9 million following a campaign warning about the cancerous effects of smoking. and this brings us to the real-life experience of a young woman looking for help in a detroit suburb in the early hours of the morning. she knocked at the door of this house after being involved in a road traffic accident. the homeowner came out and

though mcbride was unarmed, he proceeded to shoot her in the face. the medical examiner has ruled that the shooting was a homicide, and an autopsy reveals that the shot was not fired from close range. the shooter is alleged to have told police that he fired accidentally. but his attorney has said that the shooting was justified, and that her client, a 54-year-old white male, was acting in self defense. he's not been charged with any offenses. joining us now is professor michael eric dyson of georgetown university and msnbc analyst. professor, many people in detroit are wondering if a black life is worth opening the door to in the middle of the night. is it? >> well, it's a sad and tragic situation again that we confront, martin. that here again, an unarmed black person, this young woman, simply looking for help, simply asking her neighbor for an assistance, is gunned down in gold blood. and the reason has been

conflicting. well, was it a mistake? was it in self defense? this woman has nothing to harm the man with. what it seems to be here is that the real crime is to exist as black. to breathe while black. that we have no ability to stand our ground. that law has not been evoked here in michigan. michigan is one of the stand your ground states. so, again, the haunting of our own black identity by this law, which hovers low, like a horrible cloud, bringing nothing but a downpour of tragedy in its wake. we must come to a point where we are not so obsessed with believing that black people will do us harm that to merely be asked for help by an african-american person is cause for murder. >> indeed, sir. now, michigan, like florida, as you said, has a stand your ground law, which allows the use of deadly force if you feel threatened. but i have to ask you, does this case not prove the dangers of such a law? because anyone would feel mildly

anxious in the middle of the night if surprised by a knock at the door. that's the point, isn't it? that this law removes the inhi business that might control what otherwise becomes lethal behavior. >> absolutely right. and it's exacerbated by the fact that, again, suspicions about black behavior, which are much broader in the culture, seep into our unconscious. so when you put that along with the factor of being startled in the middle of the night, it can lead to disastrous consequences. here's the point. the woman is on the porch. there is no indication that the gunshot was at close range, which means that this man, standing behind his door, did not feel or need not have felt in imminent threat of his life. but again, the trigger-happy culture, which believes that black life is a threat to white life or nonblack life, leads this person to believe that he's within his right, legally, as well as morally, to respond with lethal al force.

>> and even, sir, finally, if stand your ground is used in this case, this is a 5'4" young woman with no weapon against a man with a shotgun. how was his life being threatened? >> not at all. but you see, this is the exaggerating effect and impact of racism in america. or racial bias. or unconscious belief in -- bigoted beliefs. the reality is that this woman poses no threat. but the fact that she is black seems to be the only necessary qualification for that belief. >> thank you, sir, for your expositi exposition. professor eric michael dyson, thank you. and we'll be right back in a mobility. moment. ♪ talk to me ♪ huh...fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. yep, everybody knows that. well, did you know the ancient pyramids

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