yes, um, i'd love to have look at the piece, actually while we talk about it. the 10 stages of genocide have been widely um assessed, they have been spoken about in many places and in particular the holocaust memorial day trust and other holocaus membrance, remembrance institutions um, and i'll just quickly read through them, um, there is the classification of the differences at first, the symbolization, you know, the visual manifestation of hatred, for example. in this case we can see that that is uh the jews as rats in the uh image on the right and now the palestinians as rats on the um on the left uh the fact that they are repeating themselves what they were subjected to all those years ago the nazi propaganda that they are accusing the hamas and the palestinians of they themselves are using and they are considering us blind deaf dumb to their to their tactics um i'll just very quickly read through the rest of the...

stages of genocide just so that you can and hopefully the the viewers at home can really understand where we're at here you know after after the symbolization there's the discrimination which we know exists in um in gazsah and all of palestine the dehumanization again with images like this organization where genocide are planned regimes of hatred are carried out the polarization where propaganda begins to spread by hate groups the preparation they've been you know the fact that um this was being able to carry it, the attacks on ghaza have occurred in the way that they have unquestioned and un um uh just left kind of without impunity for them to continue, sorry with impunity shows that the preparation has always been there, the persecution, the extermination and also the denial, we're at the 10th stage, we're at the denial stage of the genocide, where the extermination is happening live, and the denial is also happening live, in sync. being glorified by

the israeli regime as it enlists children to talk about it in in song. yesterday uh was considered uh world uh children's day and it's a day where children's rights are often to be remembered and to be cherished you know when in fact we've got just under 6,000 people, 6,000 children that have been killed, over 9,000 children in gazza that have been injured and maimed and all children of palestine that have suffered wars, a day like that day, on a day like world's children day where we're supposed to honor children and look after them and be reminded of our duty towards them, instead we are being bombarded with this propaganda.

הנה צער חוצה את הקר, לחסר את נוסף למטה, עוד שנה, לא יהיה שם דבר, בנחזור, בביתך לביתי, תוך שנה, נחסר את כולם, ונחזור עזוש את סותי. so within a year we will annihilate everyone and then we will return to plow our fields, that is genocide speak, and it's you know coming out of the of of beautified young girls, you know this image of purity. and

innocence, the they are grooming these young girls and and boys into being the um the face of this genocide that it's it's somehow like holy and innocent and and something that they are, it's so clever, it's so clever to use children in this in this way, but it is also um something that the world should be ashamed of that they are allowing israel to utilize any anything and anyone, nothing is sacred at this stage, if children are being... used in propaganda, then what can what are they safeguarding? because clearly they don't care about palestinian children, clearly they don't care about palestinian families, they clearly seem to to to feel comfortable enlisting their own children in this, so this this was on x, formerly known as twitter, and interestingly, ilon mosk said few days ago, as i said earlier, quote, decolonization, and from the river to the sea, and similar euphemisms necessarily imply genocide. clear

calls for extreme violence are against our terms of service and will result in suspension. we'd have to ask if that account or people who posted stuff like that on x was in. in in effect suspended, well as we saw in the al-jazera interview where you know that there is clear double standards here for israel, as they has always been, we know this, um, when will it end? that's the question, very good question, and finally, it's already difficult for doctors who are overwhelmed by the sheer number of casualties, but having to operate on their own children and losing them in the end must be heartbreaking to say the least. "there's no words really to describe, um, i, the next clip that we're about to see, as you've so well introduced, is is story that unfortunately palestinians are too, are well, are too well familiar with, the story of parents having sacrifice everything, not just to protect their own kids, but to protect the

children of others, and it's heartbreaking when the very least that you can do, when you're out there saving the world, you can't save your own family." and this we learned about this a time when the health ministry in gaza has been saying that all hospitals in northern gaza are now out of service. you know what, what strikes me about this story is that? maybe if they had access to the resources that they needed, just simple anesthesia, bandages, clean water, maybe this child's life could have been saved, maybe the lives of many other children, those babies in the icus, you know, maybe they could have been speed, that thank you. latif, we'll be back with more of the

online conversation tomorrow. now we're going to we're seeing reactions across the globe against the... israeli bombardment of gaza, south africa, already marked by its history of apartite, has been one of the strongest in issuing its condemnation of tel aviv. south africa saw the israeli ambassador leave ahead of vote in parliament to kick him out and close the israeli embassy. we spoke to naim jana, the executive director of the johannesburg-based afro-middle east center about how south africans had reacted to the move. well, in general, the south african population, to a large extent, especially among black people, but not only, has been very pro-palestinian in the past in the past six weeks or so, even more than previously, there's been numerous solidarity activities taking place, many every week, for for the

past six weeks or so, and the call has been very loud to the south african government to kick out the ambassador, the israeli ambassador. there was celebration of course when south africa decided to recall all our diplomats from tel aviv, of course we had recalled our ambassador in 2018 and not sent back new one, but then you know the the call from the streets was that that wasn't sufficient, that it was intolerable that we continued to host the embassy of an apartate state in south africa, and so that call has been very strong from from civil society, when that call began to be. echoed in parliament, it took on of course a different kind of flavor, but in general, i think there will be great celebration, if the south african government makes the decision to close down the embassy. naim gina, whose research areas include the geopolitics of the

minar region, security studies and south african and african politics, said south africa is putting to shame countries of the global north for their unholy support of apartied israel. i think that the the western states certainly on the wrong side of history, i mean, what we saw happening on the 7th of october was the beginning of new phase in the palestinian struggle, and those don't see that and don't realize that in fact, this whole past six weeks, is the beginning of new phase, and and a step closer to palestinian liberation and feel that history should be held back by you know. the uncritical support of israel as we getting from the united states, they certainly are on the wrong side of history, i think that it's good that south africa has decided that it will more firmly be on the right side of history and will more firmly follow the values that are articulated

in our constitution. look, the south african position, i must say is not is not all that the solidarity movement in south africa is calling for, for example, one of our big issues here that is being... raised by the solidarity movement is the fact that every year we have hundreds of south africans that go to israel and israeli occupation forces. quite conceivably, there are some south africans in those tanks that are going into gaza now, it's also quite possible that among the captives that have been taken by the ghaza resistance, they might be one or two south african soldiers as well, so you know, a big poll from the solidarity movement in south africa is beyond kicking out the israeli ambassador is that all of those south africans who participate in the israeli occupation forces should be... prosecuted, i think that that will then firmly place south africa on the right side of history, and the

fact that south africa is willing to go this far, i think is important in terms of you, south africa has always tried to balance its relationships between western traditional kind of trading partners and and and global south partners, bricks partners, african union partners etc. by taking this... step south africa is essentially saying that it's making uh it's making a choice beyond just balancing and that it's willing to take whatever consequences they might be, the consequences from israel are irrelevant, south africa can really do without israel in terms of trade and anything else, but of course what's important is the consequences from other western partners, particularly the united states, which is south africa's second biggest trading partner. name speaking with us earlier, now my guests ibrahimsat and lamperini thoma are still with me, let me

start with uh lamperini thomo with this question, and that is anything you want to pick up on, what um naim gina said there about the south african example, was i was in south africa to cover the brick summit, past august, it's a very live. people, the memories are there and i think that's the why they see palestine as the and this the madella connection of course, because he was a palestine fighter in his own way, and he never forgot the help the palestiniers gave to him, to their people, and he never stopped talking about palestine, even the united states and with answers from israels there, from jews there even when he visited. i think it was 99 when he visited palestine and he was very clear on his position and and south

africa reminds us because they lived through upper hide as the people live through in palestine right now is that we have a common fight as we were singing on those years free nelson mandela we have now to sing and continue fighting people. can do things, now south africa, the government is under under pressure too, from people who are even more militant on what they ask to happen, they're i think it's the eff that's asking for even to send guns to palestine, i mean you hear voices from mainstream parties that say, let's help more, let's be more next to them, let's stop having any relationship with israel, so the government is under a pressure from the people and that's what we can see

everywhere, but south africa is very special, i think country on how it sees palestine. a very special country indeed, ibrahim, you have been waiting patiently to weigh in on this, what is it that you want to talk about? just on here mentioning how this is a tipping point, a turning point, and i would like to, not word for word, but quote to hasan abu sita, who is a the palestinian, british palestinian doctor. are based in hazar not anymore, but he was based in hazar over the last couple of weeks and he himself, despite seeing and living through and caring for the injured through multiple attacks that israel has done, not only post october 7th, but throughout the great march of return, which he described may the 14th as something similar to world war one type injuries, he has also live through other israeli assaults and he himself, in spite of the fact of having to perform a c-section as well as amputate four limbs of a little girl without anesthetic, heartbreaking horrible scenes as

we could only imagine. he himself said that this is a turning point in palestinian history. it is of no surprise that many countries within the global south are standing within the palestinian people and have kicked out israeli ambassadors from their country, and many have even gone further saying, as the guests mentioned, we will go further to then support certain organizations regardless, so we're very much seeing a divide and we're seeing that clearly. london in spite of the ruling class, controlling very different means of society on whether we can hold the palestinian flag or not, whether we can chart the saying from the river to the sea, palestine will be free, people. continue to hold the palestinian flag and champ from the river to the sea as loud as they can every day of the week and every weekend, because what six weeks on has clearly showed how wrapped up, intrenched the united states, britain as well as the european union and many european states are with zionism, and what this six weeks has also shown us is the true ugly face of

zionism and what it actually is, racist political endever. that seeks to steal more and more land, not only in palestine, but within that region, which helps to explain the capture of the golden hypes, which is in modern day syria. to those watching, why is it that israel has territory that is located in syria since 1967, an area that controls a significant amount of water supplies. why is it, as the guest mentioned that this has been a plan that has been taking months, if not years in the making, and we only meant to know now that... are natural gas reserves in kha? how long did they know of these natural gas reserves and how long has this been a plan in order to kick palestinians out into the sine? because as the guest mentioned, this doesn't come overnight, this doesn't happen within six weeks. this is something that has been miticulously planned and intentionally carried out for that is what zionism is, it's true ugly face, expelling

the palestinian people from their land, an indigenous population that you can never replace. indigenous population you can never replace. um, lamprini, this has been a pr battle as well as a physical one, it seems um, there are still attempts to shape the media narrative in this conflict, how do you see it? yes, there are, and it's not the first time, uh, it's not the first case, but this one is very strong one that we have to face, and the problem is that the we call them systematic media, because to the system of governance, actually in greek, that's the for the mainstream media, that's the word we use, and i think it's the right word to use, is they are trying not only to control the narrative, but also to create new narratives that will allow the genocide to continue, that's a main problem, and we have to fight with all this, but good thing is that

especially on the palestinian issue, there's memories, there's generations. fighting, there even in the house, the narrative, when you talk with your parents, with your grandparents, the narrative breaks, it collapses, because it's 75 years, it's generations of fighters and in countries like mine, we don't believe belong really to the west, because we are not a western country, we have to say that, we belong to the eu and everything, but not in the west, the memories of our own fights, the memories of cyprus, the memories of the palestinians coming here in the 80's, in the 90s, the the many marriages we have between greeks and palestinians, their kids are here, now those are connections that that resist, it's our way to resist, of course they're trying to control everything, but they're not managing

it that time, they managed it with ukrain a lot more, not this time. not this time, um, stay with me um, to take you to um again the the um area and in the condemnation that has been coming uh from the indonesian government, indonesia, the largest country in terms of its muslim population, has strongly condemned israeli attacks on the indonesian hospital in gaza, which i mentioned at the top of the program, which killed a number of civilians monday, a medical worker inside that facility and gaza's health. ministry have said a tanks shell struck the second floor of the hospital killing 12 people, let's listen into parts of which she had to say. indonesiams in the strongest terms, the israeli attack on the indonesian hospital in gazza, which killed a number of civilians.

this attack is a clear violation of international humanitarian law. all countries, especially those that have. relations with israel must use all their influence and abilities to urge israel to stop its atrocities. i have contacted honora in gazza to ask about the situation in the indonesian hospital and received the answer that onorua cannot make contact with anyone in the indonesian hospital at this time. i have also tried to contact who and the international red cross, but have not received answer. i will continue trying to contact. what is the latest? well following on from what we've just seen, we've got a british surgeon, hasan abut, which is actually talking about the healthcare system and the

indonesial um hospital attack, so we'll see that video now that's coming up and what he believes the strategy is, for me, what has made this war different than all of the other wars, i have been at not just in gazze but around the region in yemen and iraq and syria. is the way that the destruction of the health system has been the main thrust of the military strategy that when i left the ahly hospital on that morning we ran out of anesthetic medication we basically left we closed the last remaining hospital in the whole of the northern part of the gaza strip 8000 people now have no access to uh health careare um and the wounded in those areas well he goes to talk about how um the wounded

are not treated they've only been treated with basic um sort of like first aid and without anesthesia without anesthesia and also just being bandaged and obviously the whole idea of this happening is to strategically even kill the wounded and the patients so it's um something that you know it's witnessed by surgeons and healthcare workers um in the hospitals which is really appalling. it definitely is. um, i think something about the hannibal directive is what you're talking about next. yes, well, we have from the cradle speaking with the israely reserve pilot colnel, who describes the israeli army's response to october the 7th, um, using the hannibal directive, which is orders to the army to kill their own to prevent being um taken, yeah, נפגע חתופים בשלב שהתחיל יררי של מסקרים וקטמים על הגדר כשראו את המסות שנכנסות ויוצאות נועלב על זה

בכוונה אם הופעל אז הוא הופעל בכוונה אם נפגע חתופים במקרה זה משהו אחר. נועל חניבל כנראה הופעל באיזה שלב כי ברגע שהבינו שיש חטיפה well again we see um obviously news um and remained consistent with regards to you know how many were actually um you know sort of like from 400 to 1200 although some here you know when you watch or listen to uh the media here at least they're still using the previous figure the old figure despite the fact that's what we need to see um sort of like a digital platform sort of media across you know sort of the sort of social sort of platforms because we're not getting all of that sort of news on the mainstream so it's important that we do expand. and our news. i'm sure we will, and and one final point about how you might end up paying a price for s, yeah, definitely, as as we've seen the

breaking news of uh, just i think yesterday, the president of spain has fired and removed the minister of social justice advocating for human rights for the palestinians and pursuing war crime charges before the international criminal court, so they're setting an example for people that speak up, and it is very, very alarming. as well and worrying that people do, even in those positions are actually being fired. all right, thanks again, you're welcome. i'm sure we'll hear from you tomorrow. all right, um, let's continue the conversation with uh ibrahim, who is here with me, my skype guest, i understand has had to go, many thanks to her, lamperini thoma in athens. ibrahim, i have plenty of questions to ask you, but i guess we can talk about the future of of gaza, or you know, we we're yet to see spire take place, but there is talk of what happens

in the morning after, how do you see things developing from that perspective, and also the fact that there's talk of putting the pa in charge, given the unpopularity of the pa, the passing authority, how do you see things panning out, the current leader for the palestinian authority is, he was he's an illegitimate. leader representing the palestinian people, and quite frankly he doesn't represent the palestinian people. when we speak about what's going to happen in kha, i think more so we should speak about what's going to happen to the palestinians in that region. as we mentioned here, they want to kick out at least over two million people into the sin desert. what will happen of hazza afterwards? israeli officials have reinstated the notion that khazza will not longer exist to what it once was, and it's quite heart wrenching and sad when you do look at in spite of the... that that was a military sie that does control and dictate the movement of people from the air, land and sea as well as goods and medicine, life was still flourishing in kha, and i really think

people need to stop understanding and portraying. has as a area of victimhood, but arguably it was one of the most autonomous regions in the area, as there was no israeli soldiers, there was no israeli checkpoints, yes there was an imposition of a military bloccade which was disgusting and had disastrous effects, however what we must speak about now, what is going to happen to the palestinians of hazza as that society, according to israeli officials will no longer exist, certain israeli officials even want to nuke that region, but more importantly, what's going to happen to the palestinians of the west bank? as much as everybody's eyes are locked into khaza as they should be, they should also be locked into the activities of israel's raids into the janin refugee camp as well as in indianapolis and how they are uprooting civil society and sorry just to end on, i think more importantly we must see the plaite of the palestinian people, including those in hazza in terms of what is going to happen after a ceas fire is gets called, quite frankly the palestinian people of gaz are not going anywhere, nor are the palestinian people of palestine and those in

the diaspora. are yearning the time until they will return within our lifetime. all right, ibrahim, thank you, and with those comments, we're going to wrap up this show. let me thank my guest once again ibrahim and lamparini thoma who left us earlier for sharing their thoughts with us. gaza under attack, we'll be back tomorrow with more. until then, continue to keep palestine in your hearts. thank you.