as the election season rolls on the sense of the tectonic diplomatic plates beginning at last to shift on the issue of palestine is palpable. the victor of the french elections yesterday, jean-luke melanshong made a special point of an important. priority, immediate priority for the government he intends to form to recognize the palestinian state, of course the issue is where and how and what will be the impact of such a thing, but nonetheless, the elections in france, in of the united kingdom, in the united states have all are all proceeding with the issue of palestine at the heart. of it. i was a friend

of president arafat from 1977 and i was at his bedside when he died in the persey military hospital in paris. when i came out in the early morning hours after the president's demise, i saw more television cameras assembled than i have ever seen anywhere ever in my life, and i got to thinking how this small man "the leader of a small country had become the moral center of the world, and it's no different, indeed, it's even more pointedly so after the events in the last uh nine months or so since october the 7th. gaza, palestine, is the moral center of the world, and no one can ignore it even when they are busy trying to ignore it. it has..." inflicted strategic

damage on the presidency of joseph biden, it has afflicted the political class in france, in germany, in the united kingdom and elsewhere, with real serious problems, the governments that have supported netanyahu to the ultimate extent, adnorium repeating their apologia for is... israel's right to defense and it's right to cut off the people of palestine from water, electricity and power, have lost millions of votes in the british general election last week. it is undoubtedly true that not only were parliamentary seats lost by the now governing labour party, but millions of votes were lost, lost even in constituencies that the labour party won. the

same is true now in france, and so it is inevitable that at the united nations, this shifting of the plates is beginning to be felt, suddenly everyone is talking about what will happen when the guns stop firing, when the bombs stop falling, when the children stop being mutilated, mamed and murdered, of course that's putting the... before the horse, because the children are still being murdered and mutilated, the bombs still falling on the people of gaza, but we must suppose, we must pray, hope and work for the day, when the guns stop firing, and what happens next is going to be of special importance, and we have this evening, very special guest indeed, whom i shall introduce properly. a moment or two, but if you are

interested in international politics, interested in the middle east, interested in the ongoing 75 year agony of the palestinian people, interested in colonialism, interested in imperialism, interested in how foreign policy affects domestic policy, then you've come to the right place, it is, have it out with way. francesca albanese is an appointted united nations special rapporteur on the occupied palestinian territories, the first woman to hold this position. she is affiliate scholar at the institute for the study of inter.

national migration at georgetown university in washington. she's widely published on the legal situation in israel and the state of palestine and regularly teachers and lectures. on international law and forced displacement at universities in europe and across the arab world. she joins us from italy. francesca, you are uh, whether you like it or not, hero uh across the world for the courage and eloquence with which you have spoken during this long agony that i described in the introduction, this crucifiction of... the palestinian people, this via dolorosa down which the palestinians have walked, these 75 years past, never mind, these past nine months, your eloquence, your courage has drawn e and even hatred from some

the world's worst people, but i want to assure you that the world's best people all love you very much indeed, and it's a great privilege that you should be on the show. with us uh this evening. the first question i want to ask is, is it correct to talk about the post-conflict situation when the conflict is still raging murderously with huge death toll, huge ocean of blood still being spilled. are we putting the cart before the horse? hi, george, thank you for having me. and also thank you for the kind words with which you welcome me, um, yeah, i'm aware that i comes clear, loud voice, particularly in the past eight, nine months on the what you rightly call the agony of the palestinian

people, just because i happened to be one of those who has studied the length and the protractiveness and the depth of this agony. that has been ongoing for 100 years and part of which is credit to um yeah to the to great britain so um i do not think that it's it's right right now to think about conflict but simply because i do not think that word conflict is fully appropriate of course the situation in palestine or between israel and palestine is punctuated by conflict and intellectuality, but conflict might give a sense of a symmetric work between two parties, between two states, between two realities, and this is not the case, this is the most retracted occupation of modern

history, preceded by one of the most catastrophic injustices of the post second world war, which was started before the even the the beginning of the... the second world war, and the palestinians are still being the consequences, this is setler colonial reality and should be treated as such, and it is to be understood as such, george, because only understanding what is the finality of settle colonialism, meaning taking the land, taking the resources of the indigenous people, um, one can understand how to end conflictuality, israel has historically, israel not israel necessarily a state, but israel are with this idea of being the states of the jews first and foremost has been at war with palestinians since the very beginning, if we do not understand, we do not realize this, it's going to be difficult to imagine a post,

a post to what, surely what the palestinians fear the most now, not only the ongoing general, but the fact that people can normalize this new reality and may want to for the palestins to... to the status quo and which was horrific anyway, yes, indeed, this normalization of horror, horror on an unprecedented scale, at least in terms of being able to actually watch it, there have been many horrific episodes in human history, even modern human history, but we didn't watch it on our telephones, our children didn't watch it on their telephones, it's unprecedented in that sense, but the normalization political class and the official media class is almost complete. we've just had a british general election where gaza and palestine was virtually banished from the public discourse, except where it was used as a stick to beat those

who wanted to raise the the coincidence of a genocide going alongside a general election and anyone did as one did from the scottish nationalists on the national tv stage raise gaza, it was promptly reframed as uh... october 7th story rather than a post october 7th story and let alone a pre october 7th story, so they have tried to normalize it, but they have failed, haven't they, because public opinion everywhere in the world is highly, highly now aroused by this issue and determined to raise their voice, raise their activity level to try and bring it to an end, um... yeah, i think that the shift is profound and irreversible, especially because

it's has affected lot the new generations, who are also more sensitive, it seems to me to the the concept of justice as a global justice that concerns the environment, that concern all earthlings, that concerns all people, regardless of race, gender, and nationality or political abuse, there is a part of young generations which is in. by this need to make the world better and and more just place. at the same time, i'm not, i'm not optimist as as of because i know that as i says, the we here, we are fighting against the system, and it's in plin in clear and view, this is not just israel, is the is the system that upholds israel and protects israel and... identifies itself with israel, it's very common to other western states, um,

therefore i think that more mobilization is needed, more conscientization and more awakening is needed, and also different segments of society needs to mobilize, not just young people or few scholars here and there, and actions in the street needs to translate in concrete into it needs to have a concrete impact on something. that we can affect, we might not affect tomorrow politics, so i agree with you that the electoral outcome, in in france in particular, but not only, i think to an extent, to an extent in the uk as well, is a has significance, but at the same time economic interest and financial interests needs to be affected, and therefore grass route movements like the bds needs to be more supported than ever, it is prefiction of left and right, isn't it? i mean, if you look at

uh the right, for example, uh, madame lepen, uh, she's called a fascist in some quarters, and yet she is an fanatical supporter of israel and netanyahu, to mr. orban, who's struggling for peace on the ukrainian front uh, butuh is 100% behind netanyahu. dito um uh senora meloni uh in italy, another fanatical supporter of israel, and in the labor tradition, the social democratic tradition, uh, people like kier starmer uh, if joe biden can be called a social democrat i'm not so sure about that, but the liberal side of politics, they are equally passionately a pro israel, and that is causing new... formations to to aggregate and

begin to make progress like mr. melanshong over the weekend, yes, yes, this is, this is happening, but i, i mean, i do see, and i do understand the connection between israel and right-wing forces, have a history, like, like, georgia meloni's party of antisemitism. it's it's shocking, i understand at first sight, but we need to see what's the alignment of interests and and views and visions out there, because for there is something that is stronger than antisemitism, but it has the same roots that antisemitism in europe, that let's be clear, it's still alive and kicky, and it's anti anti-arabism, anti, it's islamophobia, "look at how europe and the uk treats migrant and refugees coming

from the global south, not ukrainian of course, but those of darker skin, of different face of really coming from from other part of the work that we got to recognize as ours, our as close, our brothers and sisters, and this is again as a i often quote my friend, an israeli legal scholar, israeli historian ' ras sigal who says, the problem is that after the second world war, hitler had been defeated, but not his idea of the purity of the race and of a superior race, it's... still here, george, it's still very much entranced into this our today's holidays and it it can be found across different political spectrum from from right to left and pretty much everywhere in europe and and this aligns with israel's idea of being the defender of western values and

fighting against barbarianism and in lack of civilization that it's israel often refers to when it speaks about the palestinians, so ... it's racist at the at the end of the day. last question, if melanstrom forms a government and if france recognizes a palestinian state, leaving aside which palestinian state and where, would that change the the paradigm in the sense that uh, it would be beginning to look like a conflict between two states, one of the... not in existence, but widely recognized across the world, including by permanent five un security council members like france? look, i think that it's important as long as this recognition of the state of palestine is not merely symbolic, because you know, i do think

that from a formal point of view, the state of palestine does exist, but it's it was born in captivity. so it's not fully developed as a state as sovereinity and in this respect i understand what you mean why you say it doesn't exist yet because it doesn't exist as an independent sovereign state, so if that recognition means that there is a recognition of full sovereign authority in the state of in the state of palestine, yes at the same time i i'm also scared for what it might imply because the one hand it might bring people uh back to their seats, comforted by the fact that they have done what they could in recognizing the state of palestine again a merely symbolic act, the young generation say unity says unity of the people, unity of the land and unity of the struggle, where of course the struggle is the struggle to be free as people, and in a way the two state

solution is discussed now as a compromise which was which made sense for many palestinians, 30 years ago when some territorial compromise could still be made, but not today, and still it was a compromise that still symbolized the partition and for segregation of the palestinian people, so i would say yes, it's it's important to recognize the state of palestine, if it also means recognizing the aggression that the state of israel, israel's occupation, what remains of palestine represents, what is the most important? thing and this is where efforts should be made in my view is that the palestinians are recognized as fully, fully deserving the realization of the right of self determination, which means right to exist other people, to determine themselves as people politically, culturally, economically, and this doesn't exist under oppression, so let's imagine that tomorrow

there is a state of palestine and one way or another there is there is a... find solution that puts everyone in agreement regarding the settlements and the borders and the resources and and and what what's going to happen to the palestinian refugees who are seven millions? mean it's not just about going back to the land that they consider their ancestral homelands, probably they don't even want it, but they want to have the historical injustice recognized for the dismemberment of people of sorry of their of the their countries. si years ago and also what's going to happen to the pastians with israeli citizenship who are still treated as a second class citizens in in what what was once their their palestinian homeland so these are all issues that the creation of the full recognition of a state of palestine did not resolve pers. francesca albanese thank you

for joining us and thank you for everything you have done well a provocator. of interview uh to some tour de force to others, let's hear what the video wall thinks of the show so far. scott khalid is in london. let's have scott first. go ahead, scott. hello, mr., so i'm 21, you actually my first vote because you're the only person i land with and all the same lovers, so i just want to say thank you and hope you keep continue doing what you're doing. thanks to you. my question was, i saw online. that um the uae and saudi arabia wants to put coalition force peacekeeping forces in gaza, should they see fire and now was just thinking can they be trusted just sat idle well? was going on, are they going to serve the palestinian interests or are this going to continue to serve the show and continue to serve israel? because like i said they've set idle and nothing, wow a genocide is going on, so can they be

trusted to be again a peacekeeping force, should there be f? well, that's a difficult question to answer, and i'm not dodging it when i say that would be up to the palestinian resistance, if the palestinian resistance were ready to accept. those two countries as peacekeeping forces and if they believed that this would at least provide all if not assation of what is wholesale slaughter you called a holocaust, you're not wrong, it's not on the same numerical scale as the holocaust of the nazis in europe, but it is a holocaust nonetheless in terms of the number of people in gaza, 2.3 million. at least 25000 have been uh murdered or mayemed, that's an percentage terms a holocaust by any

metric, so the killing is so extreme that it might be the case that the uh palestinian resistance was ready to accept the uae and saudi arabia. the saudis of course have not recognized israel, they have resisted normal. particularly since the crown prince nbs came to power and his rapprochement with iran and his new relationship with russia, with china, with the bricks, the uae is a country where israel has diplomatic relations and quite prosperous commercial relations, and so the two of them together might be, i say might be an ex acceptable peacekeeping force, the people of the ue of course are just as fervently supportive of the palestinians as

the people are, their government not so much, but as i say, i'm not doing this question, because i think these issues can only actually be decided by the palestinian resistance on the ground. scott, thanks for that very interesting. a journalist in scotland. savan, welcome, what you like to say? thank you for having me on and thanks for everyone being here. was very interesting discussion, so i've got a few questions just because of the time i trying uh, it's kind of not parallel, different questions, so one of them is about the future of gaza, whether hamas should be running gaza and whether that would be a good thing for democracy and with the respect democracy and its principle, it's not just about you know going to vote and the people in gaza vote for them. or whether it will be good for democracy as as you of course aware perfectly aware the nazis were voted in as well but they were not good for democracy i'm not making equivalence at all here the second question is about your

credibility and hope you forgive me for asking you this question so since your position was against the iraq war which was iraqi as well after 2002 in 2002 2002 you you were there and met saddam hussein and you know many of his cabinet and but you even praise them uh the fact that he killed over 188 thousand people, iraqi people and a chemical use chemical weapon against the kurd kill 5000 of them in 10 in 10 or so minutes, so i'm just asking the question whether could be the great advocate for peace, well i don't forgive you as matter of fact, but i will answer you, first of all i'm not posing as a great advocate for peace. i'm hoping have out with galloway, a television show, in which you have been allowed to uh provide your very partial account of history. the second point

i'll make is i am intensely proud of the stand that i made for iraq, the stand that i made in defense of iraq against the hinanas in the region and against the imperialists abroad. who destroyed iraq, who murdered million people in iraq. you want to talk about deaths? britain and the united states murdered 1 million people in iraq and counting, as a result of their invasion and occupation of iraq, the phenomenon of isis and al-qaeda cascaded around the whole world, even onto our own s streets, if not yet in scotland, then certainly here in london, that anyone in 2024 in the middle of a genocide in

gaza should pop up on my show to talk about me and saddam hussein, simply begger belief, you're a fool and you're a name, i don't know which is the greater of your characteristics, but you are a useful idiot for imperialism with the question that you asked and the way that you asked it. let me tell you, whether i have credibility or not will not be decided by you, it will be decided. by history and i believe that like others, history will absolve me.io is up next in london. dominico, what would you like to say? i love george, thank you very much for me. the question i'm going to ask was touched up earlier on by by yourself, but nonetheless i think we relevant to ask anyway, so the the genocide in gas has

been the most rific and graphic display. of unchecked violence against civilians, women and children in a very long time, but this time this violence came through us via our social media and we watch unfold before our eyes basically live as he happened, i've not watched most of the the most the more horrific things i can't better people being d out of the rable and being turn apart. i i prefer not to watch that, but read accounts, read the report so i know what was going on. um, the most amazing thing about all this to me has been the fact that as this happened, the circus in the west, in the so-called free west keeps going on, the sports events and tv show garbage of all sorts just keeps going, people just keep playing their lives as normal, which to me, it's amazing, and this

made me think about the fact in the 40. it is said that apart from a smaller, very small circle within the nazi regime and few people, not not many other people knew about the trains and the camps and what was going on there, and i assume that back then, i'm pretty certain they didn't have mobile phones to show what was going on in the camps on their phones, and therefore my question is whether gaza is what awaits us all in a sense there are one point or another. can all be targeted and sertered live on social media, live for everybody to see, and the world will just keep going as if nothing happens and whether this is the future that awaits us and whether this is the word we have to get used to, well it's a brilliant question, almost a thesis and very interesting one, i don't mean that in any peorative way at all, you're right of course.