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a logo and welcome to cross talk i'm peter full of al well he's back fidel castro's appearance on cuban television after four years again puts into focus of on his complicated relationship with washington obama calls u.s. policy on cuba failed what needs to be done to make it a success. can. you discuss the future of u.s. cuban relations i'm joined by cathy areu in new york she's a publisher an author and a journalist in denver we have dr michael bell a tory he's a cuban refugee and a professor of school of theology and in washington we go to franco's on he's the executive director of the center for a free cuba and another member of our cross talk team yell in the hunger all right

folks across talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and first i'd like to go to you frank am obama says u.s. policy towards cuba has failed it's a failure how would you characterize his interpretation is it a failure because the united states wasn't able to enact a forced regime change after the last sixty years in havana. well president obama has said a number a number of things one and he lifted sanctions travel to cuba by cuban americans and he also will lift sanctions on remittances to cuba president obama did ask the cuban government to release all political prisoners and to put in place economic and political reforms the state department has said that they released of a handful of prisoners does not meet the expectations of a president ok so because humans aren't listening to the americans god after sixty

years they still won't listen to and won't be told what to do kathy what do you think about that i mean this this is a this is really an abomination in foreign policy the only other foreign foreign policy the united states has and i think even gets remotely close is with iran it's just it's psychopathic it's a psychopathic obsession around one of them and it's even worse with cuba because it's just simply longer i mean this what is this embargo really achieved. nothing it doesn't achieve anything i mean it was supposed to help the human rights in cuba and the people are suffering this they have a not so they don't have me to they don't have cheese for their pizzas i mean they don't have the basics in life that make life pleasurable they can't leave the island they're just it's a disaster the government five field customers brother have always had a great time they're living a beautiful life so the embargo has done nothing for the castro brothers are doing great the people are suffering it is a failed policy it's not logical it's emotional and i don't know when we start running things in this country based soley on emotions it's not

a logical embargo and it needs to be lifted we go with it what do you think about that i mean what is the what is the embargo in cheve should it be dropped or should it be nuanced i mean this is this a outrageously bad relationship in the neighborhood as it were i mean the rest of the world there's only three countries in the world the united states israel and the marshall islands that recognize this embargo everyone else says it's awfully wrong ok what what is it achieved except for make the united states look what it is a bully well quite frankly i think all of us on this program today will agree that we want to see democracy in cuba if that is the goal then the embargo has failed for the last sixty years there has been no change of anything it has given the castro brothers an excuse to come down harder on its own citizens. if we continue with this failed policy right basically we're continuing with

a bridge built to the past we want to build a bridge to the future and it's up to this new generations of cuban and cuban americans to start building that bridge to continue this and bargo is to continue the suffering of the people there and what's important is the people who have suffered the most the dissidents the one who have been thrown in jail for human rights violations so-called human i mean the ones who apply for human rights violations the political prisoners of conscience in cuba all agree that we need to lift the embargo not to do so is not to help the very people who are on the front lines of suffering in cuba ok kathy you want to jump in there go ahead i do i mean it is completely right and the embargo really is a myth you know if you go to cuba you'll find coca-cola you'll find microsoft products you'll you'll find many american brands in cuba right now where one of

their biggest export exporters we give them i think we supply them with the majority of their food their imported food so it actually is a myth it's almost like a show so castro is able to say well the united states really hasn't helped us and we don't need that and we're suffering actually because of the united states which is not true they're suffering because they failed castro regime he doesn't know how to run a country he's never known how to run a country but he's able to blame us because of an embargo that actually doesn't truly exist when you really look at it it's all for show like it's not a true embargo anymore franco hand out yeah you're going to jump in there go right ahead. yeah i think that i like when the in the beginning kathy talk about not being emotional about it let me just get. back to the facts the idea that. they cubans as their mother writer said they're not listening to the

united states is not really the issue the issue is that the cuban regime not the cubans is not listening to the cuban people the issue here is a little better more complex i'm sorry let me let me finish my thought the issue here is a little bit more complicated danny than it has been pointed out it is not true is not factually accurate to say that all dissidents support one policy or the other this is this is one of those efforts to try to paint cuba in black and white their dishes as support one policy their dissident who have gone to prison for supporting a u.s. policy finally i don't know of any country in the world in the history of the world i'm a political scientist who has changed policy just to deny another government an excuse that makes no no sense at all finally they embargo all the talk about a nuanced embargo then bargain is very new once that thirty forty years ago was one

thing today american companies sand sale hundreds of millions of dollars to cuba if the cuban government were to allow their remittances that are sent from the united states to be used to do business to grow fruit that would be resole them go with what do we want we want to export or interest to cuba we want to export fish to an island and a bounty of full sea come on let's stop blaming america and put the blame where it belongs which is and they in the fifty are all cast for the chip game again if i can go to you again the current political regime can use this word the embargo. oh the blockade i think it is in spanish i mean they are able to unite the people against the united states and reaffirm the legitimacy however they define it because of the bargo i mean it seems so nonsensical what why doesn't the united states just flood the place with dollars ok i mean just say hey forget it and then

most likely there would be political change there the embargo maintains decide it's quo that's one interpretation anyway go ahead we go. well quite quite frankly if the embargo was lifted and people started travelling back and forth you begin to have the exchange of ideas you've been to have the plantings of seeds of democracy we saw this is stoically happen in eastern europe we saw this already happen in bringing down to talk the talk regina so wide i'm sorry i'm sorry not boggle i believe i believe i am i am i thought i let you finish your yeah i'll let you finish ok let me finish mine i strongly believe that the reason we maintain an embargo in this country is because it benefits certain cubans in politics and in business to maintain this hatred towards this other government because it has helped them become quite wealthy in the united states we need to see where you're

going on the politics that benefit the few and instead create a part of c. that helps the majority of the cuban people in cuba as well as in the united states there's an old adage there are. so close i haven't finished i haven't finished there's an old adage. to cuba so close so close so far from god and so close to the united states i think we have that is and i like that that since we have to remember that since john adams there has been a desire to i'm sorry going to go to frank. yeah go ahead let's all anyone has a lot of credit and historical desire to capture cuba if not militant i mean been invaded by the united states four times in the last century and at least two or three times the cia tried to overthrow the government how can you be a sovereign nation when you have when you're so close the united states that wants

to capture you if not physically at least economically and you cannot deny history of us let me know what you're going to control on. all of its resources all right frank i had jump in front. of you first of all let's get the facts straight to quote that the professor just huge about close to the united states and god that's a quote about mexico let's let's get the facts straight that's number one to the killing all right thank you lord well. ok well i don't know i mean that's a quote that any historian will tell you but let me say this. well i'm not sure i am sorry i didn't walk around so i can i had thought ok frank ok you know i'd like to point out i'd like to point out frank that mcgill's analogy even though it is with mexico still does apply to cuba go ahead frank go ahead and that's a that's a very famous quote about mexico and i don't know if it applies to cuba that his

view well he percentage did as have five quote about cuba and as iranians as mistaking as it is mistaken to say that the way of dealing with this is to centaurs to cuba my friends think they should all know their fire speak for themselves millions of canadians millions of spaniard and many other people have gone to cuba sending tours to cuba means giving money to castro's banks anger to the cuban people the idea of blaming the victims of blame in their refugee i'm sorry oh blaming the refugees that's a line of a cuban government that calls people like me traitors cia agents warmish. the spanish word for embargo is embargo is not broke a blockade is a military operation and that does not exist a regard to cuba all right frank i would have to jump oh ok folks are going to jump in here after a short break we'll continue our discussion on u.s.

policy towards cuba stay with our. british. to the global economy. ninety ninety. five hundred tons of gold.

the train. station. a century long away. the mystery of the golden train. welcome back across computor to remind you we're talking about who will benefit from better relations between cuba and the u.s. . but before let's see what russians think about the cuban leader cuba and the united

states have been at loggerheads since fidel castro came to power in nineteen fifty nine since one thousand six to one u.s. policy towards cuba has focused on a trade embargo and diplomatic isolation and administration travel restrictions were strengthened in two thousand and four though there was a u.s. mission in havana has little communication with the cuban government however with barack obama in office when they expect changes and the removal of travel restrictions the russian public opinion foundation asked russians if they consider fidel castro to be an outstanding twentieth century politician sixty three percent said he definitely is since his actions benefit cuba only nine percent disagreed. ok kathy i started out with talking about forced regime change over the last sixty years in cuba on the part of the united states i'd like to ask you is the old cuban the elite the anti castro the are they afraid of regime change actually in miami

and their influence on congress the bogeyman called cuba that is no threat to the united states not now the cold war is over they're not sending troops to angola i mean come on i mean it's regime change in miami that there's really on the table right now they don't want to lose their grip on power and their wealth by the way. well well as you said i think there can be certain all and there. well let me say that the reason right now that we still have this embargo in cuba the reason the united states has done this and continue this failed policy is because of the d.s. blood brothers in congress and because of ileana ross lane and when they want to get reelected they talk about being cubans and what gusto and power and outcast and power mean to them and how we took away our houses and he took away our money and he took away our island and took away our land so it's very emotional and we're going to keep voting them in because they are cubans talking and singing our song

however it is a failed policy and over sixty percent of the cuban americans actually in miami right now do not want the embargo and they want a region change in cuba we all want to change in cuba but they don't want the embargo they say let's stop fighting this old fight let's do something new because it is failed so we are all slaves on the d.s. bill our brothers are actually singing the tune that their constituents are no longer singing i think they're getting reelected because they are cuban americans that they can relate to but i think their story with the embargo doesn't work anymore and i think the problem is that obama and the other politicians in d.c. think that they're right on the embargo when the majority their constituents now do not believe in the embargo the majority of cuban americans in the united states do not believe in the embargo ok so i think that people really talk about all right i mean i'm going to find it because i like to point out a lot of these foreign policy issues are really not policy they're domestic issues ok there's a number of countries. like you like israel is like that to which. they are in

afghanistan is that nobody wants to lose domestically ok it's not no one cares about afghans and washington so you know is it really did you you know they stay with cuba sorry i went off track is it really remains to be politics good frankly yeah well you know yeah first of all i mean this is a very interesting program. in the sense that there's no new inches about additional of black and white nobody. cares about afghanistan you know that's not quite true well only on the case of the congressman that is the view of the cuban government ladies and gentlemen if you want to know how who what where can you be ok. if you know it's not true and let me tell you why that's not true is to is factually incorrect to say that cuban americans do not support the current policy because if you want to know how they how they held you they could have i

done in my own way let me finish ya yeah well in miami they o'connell called her let me tell you they important fault is that one that happens every two years and as when that killer americans go to vote and they vote their elected officials that their way works in america as far as the russians i think that for all of that feel cassar and great either i assume that as to same. the same people who believe that styling was a great leader fidel castro you know he's you know he ran so i you know i think it's very funny it's very funny what you say because you spent the world me excuse me frank you made an accusation i'm going to react to it ok you know i mean you know you're living in a bubble most of the world admires fidel castro for good reasons wrong ways and you know that's not a debate that we're going to have going the right point as well for sad i'll say del castro is very positive in the world ok you know you don't like that not in cuba head and maybe not but

a lot of people find you know it's nice actually if i ask you about how i live it well for your daughter fact is daughter fact you're manipulating the facts. over your in the facts repeats the fact is an obvious i don't feel you well look i'm a structural science as you could call slumping as many times as you want but is daughter fact cuba that cuban government has been in power for fifty some years. they can't was wanting to change they will song the stand that where you were saying about sending dollars into q well. where i am if they're french well you're wrong there if i me that kind a.v.'s if i'm playing that kind they let me finish are you going frank you're going to let me finish go ahead. their friend yeah well i mean let me finish their french canadians their russian said that paris club said a lot of dollars to cuba that gulshan work because ms users that money you know for the benefit of the cuban people ok go ahead yeah here's one thing where i will

agree with frank believe it or not i do not at my feet ok astral i have as much problem with the taters ships of the left than i do of the ships of the right. i believe that people do want change i believe that cuban americans also want change the difference is that i believe change will happen when you have people exchanging ideas when you have people seeing democracy in action the problem with frank is that he believes that change will occur by maintaining a fifty plus policy that has been has narrowed actually to cuba if anything it made things worse i mean people will still not have what i believe assess the needs of life but that's. the ninety miles maybe i'll make you tell me that we're going to go to bed and i don't know you know well i'll tell you one

thing that's not what i believe and you don't know me you know of my problem is what i would like to see is to people you know you know panel discussion well but i don't talk about your problems so you seem to talk about my frank make a point to be frank make a point go ahead please make a point the point is wait is that for example let me let me say this you talk about a number of things you said about israel for example female cows for a rope broke relations with israel feel castree shame today that the israelis want to send it back into gas chambers that is not the kind of government that is willing to negotiate what we need is to this kind of discussion that we're having here tonight in cuba let's take you in stark and make it was neat to resolve a problem just not washington is not moscow it's not people who apologized for that all right we're going to want to move forward caffie i want to go to you ok let's say for example there is regime change quietly and change and i have no one ever

wants violence what do you think the possibility is that when the current political regime comes to an end let's say it's just a political regime of one family which it looks that way anyway is there a fear that the u.s. really is the police i'm asking kathy a question now do you feel that there is that the. worry that this could be just eaten up by mean an invasion of money where we would go right back to right before the revolution where would be the playground of rich americans because the cubans are pretty poor right now ok taking advantage of them buying up their land their all of their all their you know what they have i mean at least what health care they have they have there is better than the united states they would lose that so what they would go by saying they need american health care in cuba ok we need to we need their system kathy what's the what's the what's the danger i'm asking kathy go ahead. yeah it'll probably be the american playground like it was with but these stuff but they still had free education they still had free health care when it wasn't under a communist regime so i don't think that's going to change i just do believe that

they're going to see mcdonald's on every corner i think they're going to see starbucks on every corner i think they're going to see kellogg's in their grocery stores and i don't think things could actually get worse so if there's a regime change and there is an influx of money i think the people will benefit i think you'll have more tourism from the united states and things cannot get worse in that country you know go back to the way it was with by these that which wasn't fantastic but slowly and surely maybe things will get better and. i believe that it will help and also i was disagreeing with frank before i think he has to understand that gusto is loved around the world because the united states is often seen so much as a big bully exactly playing this little tiny island with eleven million people with this guy who is willing to stand up to the united states who doesn't love the little guy who stands up to that big old bully it doesn't say that he's a good leader it just has a lot of people like to get behind him and kind of kind of you know tell off the united states while they stand behind him i think. that's what i asked for and

that's why they should and that's why this report that dictator dead and i used to kill people every human rights be i don't care where the people who were in the world think about castro i care about the cuban people and let me tell you what's going to happen. is that they cuba right away to is that the cubans in cuba not the cubans of miami not the professor no me. here in washington the cubans in cuba was the size of their own destiny that's what we all want exactly but you know i'm going to give you the last time. ok. i told i told you what frank says the self-determination of a people can only be determined by the people themselves which i'd then find ironic that frank is in washington d.c. trying to pass policies in the us congress that will deny true people of cuba to determine their own destiny. want the embargo lifted i know the people of cuba want

the embargo lifted i've been to the island i've talked to people i've read what the dissidents have been saying i'm going to end this i mean at least. with the quota he will make out we'll make our wine out of plantings and even if it is sour it is still our wine it is up to the cuban people to make their own wine and i'm talking about the cuban people on the island those of us here in the united states human to united states came to go would have to jump in at this point we entered on a point that i think we all agree on many thanks to my guests today can feel a little miguel dilatory and frank house on and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember crosstalk rules. and .

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