he's a professor at boston college and the author of the gambling debate and in washington we go to david stewart he's a lawyer at ropes and gray and a key advisor on internet gambling to the american gaming association and another member of our crosstalk team hunger all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want to richard i'd like to go to you've written quite a bit about gambling when i was growing up in the seventy's and eighty's gambling was considered a certain type of lifestyle it was not really mainstream you had to go to places like vegas to do it or atlantic city or something like that you had to go somewhere and it was considered a certain lifestyle now it's like going to the ballgame isn't it and if and if we see this online presence expand which it probably will i mean what happened in the last few decades were it was a certain type of active activity now it's absolutely mainstream. well i mean gambling has become much more socially acceptable and certain ways i think it always was this that the people did what. but i would also probably say also say so

think about our culture and it seems like the ethical standard for whether or not you accept something is you can do something as long as it doesn't affect somebody's someone else so for instance smoking right now is considered. anathema united states because of the second hand smoking issue with gambling right now a lot of people take the attitude that as long as you don't hurt somebody else you should be able to do an action so gambling is become much more excessive socially acceptable and to be quite blunt governments are taking event need the revenue and therefore are willing to. sponsor the game will permit the gambling as well as they get additional revenue and people say fine i'd rather. you know it's kind of like what jefferson said about lotteries there are voluntary taxation. go to you before we talk about government is an enabler what do you think about it is it just social attitudes have changed in it is richard pointed out it's basically the tolerance

issue is that if it doesn't hurt somebody else why not letting the people do what they want and spend the money the way they want to spend it. well i think there's an issue with your premise which actually rich mentioned which is when i started had my first job forty years ago somebody came through the office at ten o'clock every morning to pick up the bets for the. bookie for the horse races people who gambled forever you know the. when christ was on the on the cross the roman soldiers were throwing dice it's just something human beings do. and it has become more public but it has i honestly think that the prevalence of gambling behaviors in our society probably haven't changed a whole lot they have become commercialized and i think that's just part of us getting used to the notion that it's the game and i think rich is fair saying that

there is not a the same sort of moral judgment on gambling that some people had in the past although there is still some attitude on that. but i think the behavior itself is is intrinsic and it's something that's. being served me and i mean i mean you think it should be how much control should there be mean if it becomes legal online in the united states i mean what's to stop a ten year old from taking his mother's credit card and gamble online through a mobile well a phone and it had to be badly where you know would be that would be a different types of behavior than we've seen in the past go ahead. sure and i work with the commercial casino industry and they're very tightly regulated more tightly regulated than anyone really than the nuclear industry. you've got to be licensed to do it incredible background check on your your whole life and then anything

misstep and you're out of the industry and that's the sort of thing that should apply the internet poker your anxiety the question you raise about she what if a ten year old gets a credit card he can do it today there's lots of internet gambling options in the united states they're just illegal but the government can't stop them without essentially creating a police state so you know if you have responsible companies doing it you can in fact control under-age gambling to a very large degree with the rigorous and identification process of something that's been. pioneered you know that my clients the commercial casino companies stayed away from online gambling for many years we're not engaged in it now and that's because we wanted to be sure it could be regulated correctly that the technology was adequate we could control money laundering issues there are lots of issues raised but we now think the technology is there to allow that to happen and so that you know attitudes about to change about it and indeed the

gambling sites are up now there it just happens to be all the buccaneers all the people from the caribbean who don't worry about these issues ok richard m. you in a kind of following on what david was saying i mean is is is gambling any different than other sin taxes that the government should be taxing i mean cigarettes alcohol things like this i mean it's no different right. well i mean. there's a difference in the fact that ironically the government is the final arbitrator whether or not you can get into this industry you can. in other words you can't get a license unless the government says you can as david just said and so ironically the government is what we call in economics there are all kinds of entry barriers from entering this industry into the government makes it that's why the industry is so profitable because you can you can only allow so the government will regulate how who gets in and why. and it's interesting what's happening in the industry now

that more and more state governments are allowing more casino gambling and how they and how the how the markets are expanding that way i mean and also i think it's also by the way i think it does to go back to an earlier point i think our attitude towards risk in is now is much higher i think we allow ourselves to take a lot more of a risk as individuals than we did before and so it's that's another interesting thing about our culture and we're very. i think before we were very clear that verse just this look at the way people spend spend on credit cards they spend now and not worry about it and so the risk there are not very risk averse to that's one of the reason why i think we got in the economic problems that we've had ok david you want to pop in there go ahead you know there's a there's a promise that there's a promise and one of the questions and also in something which just said which is this is somehow a profit guaranteed industry even the street has had a terrible couple of years i'm not asking anybody to leap for them there and

business they're taking their chances like everybody else but you know it's not a guaranteed revenue return they've been losing money like everybody else they've been laying people off you know it's just a business all right i'd like to ask a question about again this risk element as i think it's very interesting before we go into more about regulation in the internet is is the hope that you're going. to win the lottery let's put it that way i've always thought you know in the united states if you work hard and you stay out of trouble you baby it with the law you can have a decent living and i mean even working people. but this change over the last few decades i tend to disagree with you david i mean i agree people been throwing dice from time immemorial but the risk element is up and hoping you can just make it rich on that one time that you know it's my lucky number type thing that is certainly be is more prevalent now than it used to be and i think it's a really sad comment on what we'd call the american dream because the only way you can be successful and rich is to win the lottery is that going too far in your mind

david. you know it comes down to do we want government to say what you can do and you can't do. there was fourteen years when the united states government said you could not legally take a drink it turned out more people drank during that time period than ever before and we created an underworld. an organized crime world. the attempts to snuff out gambling have never been successful it is a behavior that people engage in and i don't espouse it frankly i don't engage in it but there are people who enjoy it and that's something that you know the government needs to control it to make sure that it's done in a way that is as safe as possible that you know and there are lots of concerns these days about people who don't gamble responsibly and there are programs to try to deal with them they probably aren't as good as they will be in the future and

the industries tried to work on that problem but you know the basic conduct the basic attitude towards risk i don't think there's materially different from from before and. you know people have always like to take a flyer richard what do you think about that is this you know going back to my question about the be the end of the american dream is the way you get it is this to take a huge chance or keep trying over and over again i mean i was reading before we started this program here is that the renewal of the unemployment benefits there are cases of people getting back on the unemployment rolls and then taking that money and gambling it because it's their big chance to make it big i mean that's kind of prophetic in my opinion when you think about that richard. well it's been at the same time you know i i somewhat i mean i agree with david in the sense that people does like to gamble. at the same time and the curious thing is when he mentioned there's no doubt about it this is a highly regulated industry it's also

a regulated industry where the government makes a lot of money for its came out yesterday in my home state of pennsylvania where i was the state of pennsylvania made a billion dollars in gambling revenues last last year that's a lot of money and so you have to wonder whether the regulator who is getting so much revenue is really going to be a very strict regulator in the future now and ironically it's an industry that really wants to be highly regulated let's face it element of trust and if people don't trust that the games are being held honestly and everything and the government really does force that it's like getting back to your point about the the lottery i mean the lottery is definitely for the mathematically illiterate and so ironically there's better odds in a casino any day of the week than in the state lotteries and again we call but remember they let me jump in here real quick after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the gambling debate stay with are.

still. going to. be a vote for bush bush for. always adds by one vote for kerry vote for kerry so the people that are going to be validating this machine can stand there all day long and vote for somebody and it will be right every time but the guy can walk up here and if he hits the right buttons he can flip the boat that he did.

it. and. say. welcome back to cross talk i'm peter lavelle remind you we're talking about the

high stakes of gambling. and. soon. but before let's see what russians think about gambling establishments. well you end up on top those who gamble playing with passion tend to think they will but gambling is embroiled in a serious debate in two thousand and nine russian docked at a low close an all gambling establishment in russian cities and those casinos are to be opened in special gambling zones created in other areas of the country according to the russian public opinion research center only six percent of russians keen on gambling most of them preparing cards and slot machines the poll has also strugglers that relegating gambling to remote regions was the cool of seventy percent of russians however and the fourteen percent believe victim the casinos will prove again bull to fall back to peta ok richard i go back to

something you were saying earlier barney frank once they have loosened up the unlawful internet gambling and forstmann act and he has his argument is that. tens of thousands of jobs i think thirty thousand have been mentioned and billions and billions of dollars of tax revenue could be generated and is this the way the you feel comfortable with where the government be making money i mean ok they have deficits be they've just you know the the wall street is destroyed the economy for everybody but is this a way that you find appropriate to fill back the coffers. well the reason why. the reason why i would agree with congressman frank the government should regulate because who knows right now the present sites or how they're not they're not regulated whatsoever by any government entity how do you know and again how do these sites certainly aren't going to protect any any under-aged gambling or people

who get addicted to gambling so ironically if you're going it the way the internet is going right now the reason why i pay for government intervention is because for god's sakes to protect the people who are using it and how the government step in also i think. it was it was interesting harry is one of the big casino firms in the united states was always against internet gambling m.g.m. . was much more acceptable now they both and when you think about if you had a brand name casino firm offering internet gambling who could provide protection give you the odds are that you winning it might be a lot better off in the present condition i mean it's not so much because of of jobs and things like that the un's i think you need to protect the people who are who are who are engaging in internet gambling david what do you think about that and what kind of government regulation do you think is best for the industry because if there isn't a change american gamblers one way or another will just go overseas macau and europe i mean that's where they would have much greater ease so i mean is it about

market share as well. they don't have to go overseas they can sit in their laptop and gamble with the caribbean internet poker sites or blind casinos whatever they choose and you know rich makes a very powerful point that for consumer protection reasons regulation can ensure that you have some protections built in that you have. under-age protections that if people want to exclude themselves from and want to get into these compulsive gambling programs that those are enforced and you can generate some tax revenue i don't think it's going to close the deficit by any means but you know i would say it's better than nothing. and you know it's. it is still i think politically sensitive in a lot of places so yeah i mean only if you're

a thing it's very interesting because eighty percent of people are you know they think it's all right but then it's very politically sensitive i mean are these and maybe david do you know more about this i mean where is the twenty to twenty percent that if so much power to block the state i mean if it seems very specific interest groups. well you were getting away from ben it's a great question but you get away from policy and into poly and you want to finish you know when you run away when you yeah when you run for office do you want to be the guy who voted for internet poker or goes there maybe twenty percent of the people don't think anyone in america would be. well but you know if it is an issue that for the people who care about they care a lot yeah and you may lose them forever so it's a calculation that the politicians have to make. and you know that i find it amazing when i go to a social event sometimes i'll ask people if they gamble online then you know what i

offer almost always find that there are people there who do even though it's illegal so there is a sense of you know we're you know the government has been sort of ordering the tide not to come in that you know this is happening so it it some policy level only makes sense to regulate it and get the government slice out of it and i think there has been progress in changing people's minds in that regard to years ago this was floated and really got nowhere now it's making a little progress when you think about that richard i mean added to their aging well i think it's i think it definitely is but the bore interesting thing is remembering the united states right now state governments regularly gambling state government benefits from the revenue from gambling clearly the internet gambling is going to have to be at a federal level i don't the state of nevada when be. there they would like to regulate it because literally the other states are going to say well wait a minute now i mean by the way there's already

a huge controversy and i think it's about collecting sales taxes on internet on internet purchases so. i would imagine banks way the federal government is actually going to have to get into this issue they're going to have to regulate the internet gambling thing it can't be state by state that's for sure it doesn't make any sense because close clearly if it's on. living in will say vermont that doesn't allow internet gambling i could just go to a website massachusetts with no problem whatsoever so. that's the more you know the whole revenue issue. how you're going to regulate who's going to provide the regulation it's a fascinating subject that way for the united states david i mean you look at the whole industry well interesting ok go ahead but i was just going to suggest that following up on what ridge says even whether a state wants to permit internet gambling i think you know the proposals i've seen would mostly allow a state to say they don't want to have it in their state you know there are

a couple of states left. poster child that has no gambling at all i can't imagine they would want to allow internet gambling and somebody is going to have to allow them to prevent that richard. that would be faster you can imagine a state saying all right we're going to block internet gambling sites in our state alone it is very interesting i will be no they don't really got a fast i mean they are it's not only don't have any. go ahead dave no you get all i can get the companies to block it and they are here location tools they can tell where the image is this isn't something the industry is worried about a lot and there are tools that will allow them in almost all cases to block people who were in the wrong jurisdiction you know if you were a really clever programmer maybe you could get around them but most people can't you know it's sounds like we're talking about persona graffiti here i mean you know

blocking it here from the you know jurisdiction the jurisdiction here i mean what isn't there. eventually there's going to be some forces in the on a federal level saying for budgetary reasons it's better to have it entirely regulated nationwide thing and that's that's going to be difficult because a number of states but again i've had to bring it up i mean if it's going to be so complicated people are just going to go elsewhere because as you said david people like gambling and they'll go wherever it is and if they can do it legally in the united states of this go someplace else on the on line well well that's what's happening now i mean they're going now but the fact is if you give them as rich said a name brand if you give them something they're comfortable with that they know that it's a straight game it's an honest game. i think that there is there is a place for that and the market will allow it frankly the buccaneers may still survive even with a license regulated domestic industry the offshore guys may still be in business

and it's hard to predict what you can reach if you want to go because i want to ask about the this i mean i agree with david on that one hundred percent is because let's face it suppose you have a legalized internet gambling and they'll block certain people i suppose so money is addicted to gambling they buy go to the illegal sites now again i guess that's the equivalent of someone. i mean we haven't even brought up the whole the sports gambling and that would that would clearly that would be even bigger in other words or will you allow sports gambling on the internet that that's going to be another whole issue that eventually going to have to be faced right now basically it's the you know let's face it that's the that's the last bastion of the bookies and so that's that's another whole interesting question about where people feel very comfortable about. gambling on sports and so the another whole issue that we haven't even faced yet david how do you feel about that is sports gambling because

that as richard pointed out is kind of the last frontier i mean you could do it on your telephone you can do it anywhere i mean that's and you think of the demographics too i mean it's ok if it's completely legal and accessible i mean i i wonder if high schoolers will be doing their homework all they'll be playing. on the internet betting. well i can tell you is at the gym where i work out everybody's got a game down and i bet down on sundays games and they're all doing it offshore illegally and you know the national football league even approves the official line you know plus seven or minus six on every game so you know there's a basic hypocrisy in the sports leagues where they say there mustn't be any gambling on it and they know that frankly gambling is terrific for their business. but politically my experience has been that that's sort of a third rail and that. legalizing sports gambling is something that i don't

see happening for a while you know it is allowed in nevada it's allowed in a couple of other states have versions of what they can do but that's it and i don't see that moving until. for the forseeable future richard you want to have the last word on this topic. well i mean anything i would say about it clearly on the internet if you allow internet gambling the internet the illegal fights right now allow sports gambling so if you allow that with them which would be a pretty big chunk of money clearly you're not going to you're not going to be putting the illegal internet sites out if you allow them the sports gambling and the other ones not so it's again i think it's an issue we're going to venice we have to return to but by the way just in case david new jersey right now suing the federal government ok well you get sports i wouldn't bet on it ok i'm going to have to leave it gentlemen many thanks to my guest today in stamford and washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here in our team see you next time and remember cross talk rule.

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a tiny villages have been destroyed in just the poles few days sarah so what's the force situation in russia like this morning. when. the pos couple of days they've seen some real devastation with this. to ation ahead the fires have really had a very big impact now we also know that throughout the rest of the country there are still a lot of fires burning and nasa space image that around four hundred areas is still on fire we can see on a map now the regions that continue to burn and the emergency services and firefighters are really struggling to do with this situation and to gain control of it because there's been such a large amount we've heard from the people who've witnessed it that it's really a very fierce fire indeed and now this is because of course by the extreme heat wave that we've seen a for the past couple of weeks.