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five years after israeli settlers in gaza thousands of jewish people living in the west bank for you they're about to be forced from their homes to. the country's been hit by hurricane intervention west while still reeling from weeks of president heat wave. and suffocating. coming up next on our. guaranteed in crosstalk. the nature of globalization has changed because of the financial crisis and whether the process of globalization has in fact occurred. just half a minute away. the

united states of america is waging war within its own army. joe now advantage is on no one side. and human losses are quite significant. is it possible to win the war against sexual assault in the u.s. armed forces sex in the army on our. oh and welcome to cross talk on people about globalization is a fact of everyday life but how is globalization changed during the financial crisis who benefits from it most and can the developed world learn something from emerging markets. and.

to discuss how globalization is changing i'm joined by rodney shakespeare in london he's one of the founders of the global justice movement also in london we have. a professor at columbia university and in paris we crossed the red sea insall he's the co-director of the european center for international political economy and another member of our cross talk team yelena hunger if i go to you first in london . through the course of this last eighteen months of the global financial crisis in your opinion how has this concept of globalization changed has it changed with the global financial crisis well it has changed indeed it has changed in several ways one way is the notion of its vulnerability the notion that my god this is the end of globalization i think that is incorrect there are many different globalization's the second way in which it changed is

a second sort of misrepresentation which is the notion aha the national state is back in force but really what has happened is that national taxpayers' money has been used by national executive branches of government to rescue the global financial system so the third item for me is will people understand including commentators that this is not a. internationalism is just a different type of globalization in terms of the corporate economy and finance then there are all the other transnational civil society globalization's and that is a history in the making let's see how they may perhaps discover new instruments with which to fight corporate economic globalization ronnie if i can go to you i think it's very interesting which i'm scared to say because it seems like globalization works for the world of finance ok we have bailouts but really they're just bailing

out banks all over the world you saw him on wall street and we've seen it in greece greece is not going to get that money it's going to go to the banks that the loan did to them in the first place so is is there a de globalization in some cases any in intensified globalization in other cases. is this an intensified globalization great market of finance cast this as in fact become more extreme partly it's because they remove certain constraints partly because new economic doctrines have come to say that whatever the banking system does when it creates money and then see it for any purpose including the casino economy but that is good and serves the purposes and there is a third aspect which is in fact probably which is the computerized economy and the overall effect of this is that control has moved right into the hands of the finance groups of governments group and the rest of them at the same time the real

economy of ordinary people is actually getting worse fifty five percent of people who live under three dollars a day that remains the same twenty five thousand people who die each day from the effects of dirty water and i could go on citing fact after fact globalisation is supposed to be efficient free market economy but it's not free market most people do not have access to capital it is not. fair think of the circumstances for a woman who has children and she's not part of the official economy she works very hard and as for being efficient well in the united states forty million people are on food stamps so the thing is actually getting worse it's not doing what it should do and we are in fact in the second stage at the beginning of the second stage of the second downward lake of collapse which will go on for another fifteen or twenty years i think i'm going to you in paris hear what is your opinion what is the state of globalization now because there are certainly people that embrace it in other

people say this is it has nothing to do with our free market economy it has nothing to do with liberty and democracy and all these other social issues here what is the state of globalisation in european. or well it certainly worse than it was before the crisis but i wouldn't i wouldn't exaggerate the effect what we saw roughly from about nine hundred eighty to the onset of the crisis was the biggest globalization in economic terms at least the world has ever seen in terms of trade foreign investment to some extent the movement of people movement of capital as well what we've seen in the wake of the crisis is a short term sharp the globalization with a contraction of trade flows of investment. shrinkage of global capital but we have seen a mild rebound since then overall in historical terms i think we're still in

a process of economic globalization i think it's delivered enormous benefits yes what we've seen in the wake of the crisis is much less confidence in the market economy and globalization overall but what we haven't seen is a significant reversal we haven't seen huge protectionism around the world we haven't seen a return to the one nine hundred thirty s. what we have seen are somewhat in. increased government interventions in different parts of the world but overall i'm not terribly person mystic about where we are today i think we have a blip on the screen. the chances are reasonable that we'll will return to the kind of globalization that we saw before the crisis. if i go to some changes but you know one of the one of the things i think about when i look at this financial crisis and globalization is that it doesn't something really has to

change to make sure we don't have this happen again and again we just financial icing the global economy because it seems like banks the banking system is always going to be saved but nothing else is saved and depending on how you look at it europe the european countries of the european union are losing their sovereignty hand-over fist right now ok i mean is that a positive thing to say about globalization we're going to ask you first and we'll go to paris yeah let me first also say a comment on that make a comment on what. he's right in saying i agree with him when he says said globalization is not about to disappear and we're talking about economic corporate globalization we're dealing with techno economic systems that are de facto global they are not about to ring nationalize anytime so i agree with that where i disagree and here i am closer to what you were saying rockne that is

the whole issue of how it affects you know questions of income distribution. advantages disadvantages for the losers i do think that number one crisis is built into finance it's just part so we shouldn't be shocked if we see we have a financial crisis we have had since the 1980's five major crime. bases and about seventy what are called country adjustment crises but they're all crises the question then is is there a difference in the current crisis and i see a difference and and here i diverged i think from russia she meant his evaluation it is the following to keep this system going at the highest levels i don't mean the poverty you know that's easy to keep that going i mean to keep the sort of the heart of this global corporate economy going and the high finance system that we

have it means more and more extract of taxes from citizens all over the seven hundred billion fund in the e.u. is another mechanism for extracting taxpayers' money secondly states increasingly indebted to beg as you said much of that greek bailout is not going anywhere near greece it is going to pay our bank loans for what so that the greek government can make more loans so the question that i see the big change is that we have really managed in thirty years to reach a point where we have on the one hand enormous technological advances enormous wealth yes have a billion people in india and china have become middle class on the other hand we have our impoverishing the citizenry of the highly developed countries or when you are employed or showing that i want to do that in the second part of the run you want to jump in there go ahead. yes look russian was essentially expressing one of

the fundamental assumptions of classical economics which is that everything is ultimately in the librium and will return to the librium but that is not what has happened much more fundamental question is now taking place and we just take the one latest example even when greece is bailed out its deficit as a percentage of gross national product will be one hundred fifty. cent and it will be on paper i'm repayable face the facts that the greek is going to have to pull out all it will be smashed out of the euro and they're going to be knock on effects country after country hungary that vs the estonia lithuania portugal greece iceland the forty eight states of the united states we just talking governments we're not talking corporations we're not talking individuals we're not talking towns or cities we're talking national governments they're virtually all going

bankrupt now that it's not just a temporary phenomenon if you're sitting in the precinct phenomenon all right be ready for the discussion here going on jimmy kimmel jump in here thing after a short break we'll continue our discussion on globalization stay with r.t. . if you. want. to fill in the military because i thought that it was my duty that it was something that i could do to help my country i believe my government that is necessary for america to vietnam it was a lot of drug abuse there was a lot of murder of american officers and soldiers there a lot of lives we've seen. by. these rules of war i

always thought i wanted to win a lot of medals and they do have a lot of desperation. but afterwards i realize that they they don't mean anything there's not that important. i don't i don't i never kept the medal. every month we give you the future we help you understand how to get there and we

want to bring the best in science and technology from across russia and around the world join us acknowledging update on our g. c. welcome back to cross talk computor lobo to remind you we're talking about how the process of globalization has changed since the financial crisis. and. before let's say how globalization affects russians. globalization refers to the blurring of borders between countries creating a global market and bringing new security challenges yet economists politicians and sociologists are divided on the merits of globalization in russia an opinion poll last citizens how globalization affects they alike twenty percent saw the process

as positive saying it helps share experiences with others around the world however thirty two percent saw it as negative as it makes russia dependent on factors all side its control and the seventeen percent believe global is ation has no impact on the l.a. back to peter. ok before we went to the break romney was mentioning how the difference between the developed developing world in developed world have experienced globalization during this crisis and i'd like to continue with that thought here in paris i mean it in a way it looks like first of all the emerging markets are recovering from this crisis much much faster they didn't they really took on the gospel of having good economic solid economic policies not like western countries i mean in a way if globalization is continuing or are they going to continue to benefit from it or is it because of globalization that they continue to benefit. while they're

contributing to it and benefiting from it but let me go back to some of the road news points which i thought were complete both bunkum i would try and deconstruct is around all the the facts and the assumptions that were wrong with it but let me make let me make three or four points the first thing is this the first thing is this. the effects of economic globalization particularly in the last three decades or so with the insertion of much of the developing world including china russia india brazil and so on has been historically unprecedented in terms of growth. in terms of removal of hundreds of millions of people in the developing world from poverty in terms of an overall increase of wealth although there are inequalities here and there now proportionately it's the developing world that has benefited the most and we see that particularly in china and other parts of asia but we shouldn't

forget that both consumers and producers in the west in europe and in north america have also benefited to a very very large extent second point globalization is much more than just about finance and finance is not a disembodied part of globalisation it is about trade it's about investment it's about the movement of people as well not just rich people but also poor people in search of better lives financial globalisation is very much at the heart of that process and i think it's facile not just bad economics but bad everything else to think of financial globalisation as something isolated and something that that one can one can constrict in a little box while other parts of globalisation go on yes we have seen massive excesses in global finance which the crisis has shown much of that by the way

is due to big failures in government policy in monetary policy i think all right ron you want to respond to those points there. very shortly that was. a complacent statement and one of the facts that i put forward was addressed i don't wish to say ok sassiest guy can go to you i mean what is the difference here i mean the way the developing world in the developed world did have experience globalisation because it seems to be as easy you pointed out earlier i mean. i didn't use the word i was not the first person to throw in these very complacent but i mean the living in a culture of debt of borrowing and in the developed. always told the developing world you better be careful with your finances and you know in fact they have been it was the developed world really didn't listen to its own its own scripture as it were. well i mean if i wanted to use a grand. the powerful tend to abuse their own power and sort of nail

themselves against the cross so to speak i hope i don't offend any christians here by invoking the cross but you know i think that taking them to like brazil brazil has an economy of manufacturing of mining you know all kinds of of things that are real. just a fact eighty percent of the people who live in sao paolo which is the global city and the global south really. own their homes they all bought it in cash so to speak now eighty percent means quite a bit of the middle class in other words the level of financial lies of the brazilian economy is not lower than the u.s. than the u.k. so by the way is the german economy german economies and the french economy there are less financial and the u.k. and the united states so it is quite possible that when we look at national economies as rodney was doing that the u.s.

has really damaged its own people in its own state in a very serious sense but secondly also in brazil to take an example that is much admired there is enormous inequality in china central committee of the communist party as i am an honorary advisor to the national academy of planners etc so i get involved in china. they have to clear that inequality is one of the big issues there and last year there were nineteen thousand revolts in china it was not the norm rich middle classes you know so we are dealing with a system that is producing enormous inequality and i would agree with one point that was a. made. which is the failure of national governments in governing finance but also in governing the larger market effects that this kind of capitalism rings around you know where if you go to you i mean this this financial

ization of economies is this something that the developed countries have to slowly work away from i mean it's going to be in europe it's going to be a very long time the united states is going to be a very long time to pay off this debt the debts that are being accumulated right now in the eurozone are huge as well and the timelines are a lot shorter how can they move away from this financial ization process in the economy because it certainly benefits a small group of people that have every interest in keeping it going. i disagree with the premise yes we have seen a considerable overextension of the financial sector in handful of economies notably in the united states and in the u.k. that had a lot to do with government policy by the way because monetary policy was deliberately loose and that allowed a lot of this bubble like effect to take place but let me go back to my main point and this is where i think i would disagree somewhat with. finance including global

finance is very important and it's contributed to the broadly beneficial effects we've seen from from globalization so i don't want to see. taming or a reversal of of global finance and i think that would be that would be very counterproductive saskia talked of some economy is that had emphasized manufacturing and so-called real things. over services again i think that's somewhat. somewhat distorted way of looking at it if you look you know i say like i'm going to say it's not always everything starts it distorted according to you if i may come in at this time you've got everything which is coming. yes everything which is coming from paris are to please seems that things are going fine that's a bit of trouble but they will get back into balance it's a very smart very complaisant and it does not affect the facts which i put forward early on in this program if i may move forward on this what has. that

tack. go ahead run me keep going and we'll have what has to happen that has to be an attack on global finance which is a narrow thing and devoted purely to the interests of financial corporations and their supporters people like obama are completely controlled by those institutions instead the banking system we speak stopped from creating money let it lend it's own money and let it lend that money obviously positive with permission and then open up a new money supply from the national banks administered by the banking system for the purposes of developing and spreading a really productive economy to every single individual in the population nothing impressive free market capitalism tries to do that ok what i'm proposing this is a gentle process and it can spread productive capacity and get that balance which is required in the economy regardless of the present system about.

rodney wants to take us back to the dark ages we've had national control of finance before it's been highly destructive not a. system to what i said well that's that's what i listened very carefully that's one that's what you certainly implied. two things about about finance and global finance i am not in favor of governments providing artificial crutches for big banks particularly not allowing the larry very scenario there is fascinating because we've run out of time many thanks to our guest today rodney shakespeare in rason sally in. thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cross talk rules. punished sunny. kitchen. students. and.

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