ordinary every citizen find a grassroots organization that is actually physically doing things on the ground. rather than just mailing fifty dollars to the red cross twenty dollars of which is actually going to go to the asian people. and i think that more than anything else . what i learned. from my trip. was that. humanity when confronted with some of the most drastic and devastating. of tragedies and possibly befall them still that has the capacity for resilience that. that touch of the soul. of.

the united states of america is waging war within its own army. joe no advantage is on no one side. and human losses aren't quite significant. is it possible to win the war against sexual assault in the u.s. armed forces sex in the army on our g. hello this is the r t news channel from moscow i'm kevin zero in. the headlines for

you this half hour the future of football russia shoots for goal it's been toast the twenty eighteen world cup as a free for delegation begins inspecting potential venues across the country it's a tough story today. also five years after the removal of israeli settlers from gaza ended in violence thousands of jews in the west bank and now fearing they'll also be forced out as part of a government peace deal with palestinians. at a summer of extremes half to two months of a record heat wave and devastating wildfires russia is now bracing itself for a hundred couldn't force winds which have already hit the northwest of the pope. one hundred thirty one am moscow time coming up in just under a minute now robust debate guaranteed in cross talk with people.

every month we give you the future we help you understand how we'll get there and we want to bring the best in science and technology from across russia and around the world join us knology update on our jeep. and you can. follow and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle globalization is a fact of everyday life but how is globalization changed during the financial

crisis who benefits from it most and can the developed world learn something from emerging markets. and you can. start. to discuss how globalization is changing i'm joined by rodney shakespeare in london he's one of the founders of the global justice movement also in london we have saskia sassen professor at columbia university and in paris we cross to wrestling he's the co-director of the european center for international political economy and another member of our crosstalk team on the hunger if i go to you first in london. through the course of this last eighteen months of the global financial crisis in your opinion how has this concept of globalization changed has it changed with the global financial crisis well it's. has changed indeed it has changed in several ways one way is the notion of its vulnerability the

notion that my god this is the end of globalization i think that is incorrect there are many different globalization's the second way in which it changed is a second sort of mystery presentation which is the notion aha the national state is back in force but really what has happened is that national taxpayers' money has been used by national executive branches of government to rescue a global financial system so the third item for me is will people understand including commentators that this is not a return to nationalism it's just a different type of globalization in terms of the corporate economy and finance then there are all the other transnational civil society organizations and that is a history in the making let's see how they may perhaps discover new instruments with which to fight corporate economic globalization ronnie if i can go to you i

think it's very interesting what i was scared to say because it seems like globalization works for the world of finance ok we have bailouts but really they're just bailing out banks all over the world you saw him on wall street and we've seen it in greece greece is not going to get that money it's going to go to the banks that they won't get to them in the first place so is is there a de globalization in some cases in intensified globalization in other cases. is this an intensified globalization a great market of finance so this has become more extreme partly it's because they removed the constraints are partly because new economic doctrines that come to say that whatever the banking system does when it creates money and then see it for any purpose including because she. no economy but that is good and serves the purposes and there is a third aspect which is in fact probably which is the computerized economy and the

overall effect of this is that control has moved right into the hands of the finance groups goldman sachs group and the rest of them at the same time the real economy of ordinary people is actually getting worse fifty five percent of people who live under three dollars a day that remains the same twenty five thousand people who die each day from the effects of dirty water and i could go on citing fact after fact globalisation is supposed to be efficient free market economy but it's not free market most people do not have access to capital it is not fair think of the circumstances for a woman who has children and she's not part of the official economy she works very hard and as for outcomes being efficient well in the united states forty million people are on food stamps so the thing is actually getting worse it's not doing what it should do and we are in fact in the second stage at the beginning of the second stage of the second downward lake of collapse which will go on for another

fifteen or twenty years i said i'm going to you in paris here what is your opinion what is the state of globalization now because there are certainly people that embrace it in other people say this is it has nothing to do with a free market economy it has nothing to do with liberty and democracy and all these other social issues here what is the state of globalization in your opinion. or well it certainly worse than it was before the crisis but i wouldn't i wouldn't exaggerate the effect what we saw roughly from about nine hundred eighty to the onset of the crisis was the biggest globalization in economic terms and at least the world has ever seen in terms of trade foreign investment to some extent the movement of people movement of capital as well what we've seen in the wake of the crisis is a short term sharp. globalization with the contraction of trade flows of investment . shrinkage of global capital but we have seen

a mild rebound since then overall in historical terms i think we're still in a process of economic globalization i think it's delivered enormous benefits yes what we've seen in the wake of the crisis is much less confidence in the market economy and globalization overall but what we haven't seen is a significant reversal we haven't seen huge protectionism around the world we haven't seen a return to the one nine hundred thirty s. what we have seen are somewhat increased government interventions in different parts of the world but overall not terribly impressive mystic about where we are today i think we have a blip on the screen that the chances are reasonable that we'll will return to the kind of globalization that we saw before the crisis. if i go to some changes

but you know one of the one of the things i think about when i look at this financial crisis and globalization is that there isn't something really has to change to make sure we don't have this happen again and again we just financial icing the global economy because it seems like banks the banking system is always going to be saved but nothing else is saved and depending on how you look at it europe the european countries of the european union are losing their sovereignty hand-over fist right now ok i mean is that a positive thing to say about globalization let me just ask you first and we'll go to paris yeah let me first also say a comment on that make a comment on what. he's right in saying i agree with him when he says said globalization is not about to disappear and we're talking about economic. globalization we are dealing with techno economic systems that are de

facto global they are not about to ring nationalize anytime soon i agree with that where i disagree and here i am closer to what you were saying rodney that is the whole issue of how it affects you know questions of income distribution. advantages disadvantages for the losers i do think that number one crises is built into finance it's just part so we shouldn't be shocked if we see we have a financial crisis we have had since the 1980's five major crises and about seventy what are called country adjustment crises but they're all crises the question then is is there a difference in the current crisis and i see a difference and and here i divert i think from him and his evaluation it is the following to keep this system going at the highest levels i don't mean the poverty

you know that's easy to keep that going i mean to keep the sort of the heart of this global corporate economy going and the high finance system that we have it means more and more extract of taxes from citizens all over the seven hundred billion fund in the e.u. is another mechanism for extracting taxpayers' money secondly states increasingly indebted to beg as you said much of that greek bailout is not going anywhere near greece it is going to pay of bank loans for what so that the greek government can make more loans so the question that i see the big change is that we have really managed in thirty years to reach a point where we have on the one hand enormous technological. this enormous wealth yes have a billion people in india and china have become middle class on the other hand we

have our impoverishing the citizenry of the highly developed countries ok when you are impoverished in this and want to do that in the second part of the run you want to jump in there go ahead. yes look russian with essentially expressing one of the fundamental assumptions of neo classical economics which is that everything is ultimately in it pretty quick librium and will return to librium but that is not what has happened something much more fundamental question is now taking place and we just take the one latest example even when greece is bailed out its deficit as a percentage of gross national product will be one hundred fifty percent and it will be on paper i'm repayable face the facts that the greek is going to have to pull out or be smashed out of the euro and they're going to be knock on effects because in country after country hungary latvia estonia lithuania portugal greece iceland the forty eight states or the united states all we're just talking

governments we're not talking corporations we're not talking individuals we're not talking towns or cities we're talking national governments they're virtually all going bankrupt now that it's not just that temporary phenomenon if you're feeling increasing phenomena are i be ready for the discussion here looking again we have been hearing after a short break we'll continue our discussion on globalization stay with r.t. . if you. still. want to. wealthy british style so i. thought i was. like this.

market why not. find out what's really happening to the global economy with max cause or for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune into kaiser report on . the united states of america is waging war within its own army. advantage is on no one side. and human losses are quite significant. is it possible to win the war against sexual assault in the u.s. armed forces sex in the army. if if. if you knew about someone from funniest impressions. who

threw stones on t.v. . more news today violence is once again flared up the film these are the images the world has been seeing from the streets of canada. china corporations are today. if you. want to. welcome back to cross talk computable remind you we're talking about how the process of globalization has changed since the financial crisis.

but before let's see how globalization affects russians globalization refers to the blurring of borders between countries creating a global market and bringing new security challenges yet economists politicians and sociologists are divided on the merits of globalization in russia an opinion poll last citizens how globalization effects they like twenty percent saw the process as positive saying it helps share experiences with others around the world however thirty two percent saw it as negative as it makes russia dependent on factors all side its control and other seventeen percent believe global ization has no impact on of a light back to you peter. ok before we went to the break romney was mentioning how the difference between the developed the developing world in developed world have

experienced globalization during this crisis and i'd like to continue with that thought here in paris i mean it in a way it looks like first of all the emerging markets are recovering from this crisis much much faster they didn't they really took on the gospel of having good economic solid economic policies not like western countries i mean in a way if globalisation is continuing or are they going to continue to benefit from it or is it because of globalization that they continue to benefit. well they're contributing to it and they're benefiting from it but let me go back to some of the odd news points which i thought were completely bugged bunkum i would try and deconstruct is around all the facts and the assumptions that were wrong with it but let me make let me make three or four points the first thing is this the first thing is this. the effects of economic globalization particularly in the last three

decades or so with the insertion of much of the developing world including china russia india brazil and so on has been historically unprecedented in terms of growth in terms of removal of hundreds of millions of people in the developing world from poverty in terms of an overall increase of wealth although there are inequalities here and there now proportionately it's the developing world that has benefited the most and we see that particularly in china and other parts of east asia but we shouldn't forget that both consumers and producers in the west in europe and in north america have also benefited to a very very large extent second point globalization is much more than just about finance and finance is not a disembodied part of globalization it is about trade it's about invest. it's a movement of people as well not just rich people but also poor people in search of

better lives financial globalisation is very much at the heart of that process and i think it's facile not just about economics but everything else to think of globalization is something isolated and something that one can constrict in a little box while other parts of globalization go on yes we have seen massive excesses in global finance which the crisis has shown much of that by the way is due to big failures in government policy in monetary policy i think all right ron if you want to respond to those points there. very shortly that was. complacent statement one of the facts that i put forward was addressed i don't wish to say. here if i can go to you i mean what is the difference here i mean the way the developing world in the developed world does have experience globalization because there seems to be as you pointed out earlier i mean. i didn't use the word

the first person to whom these were complacent but i mean the living in a culture of debt of borrowing and in the developed world always told the developing world you better be careful with your finances and you know in fact they have been it was the developed world that really didn't listen to its own its own scripture as it were. well i mean if i wanted to use a grant phrase the powerful tend to abuse their own power and sort of nail themselves against the cross so to speak i hope i don't offend any christians here by invoking the cross but you know i think that takes twenty like brazil brazil has an economy of manufacturing of mining you know all kinds of things that are real. just a fact eighty percent of the. who live in sao paolo which is the global city and the global south really. own their homes they all bought it in cash

so to speak now eighty percent means quite a bit of the middle class in other words the level of financial i.z. of the brazilian economy is not to lower than the u.s. than the u.k. so by the way is the german economy german economies and the french economy there are less financial and the u.k. and the united states so it is quite possible that when we look at national economies as rodney was doing that the u.s. has really damaged its own people in its own state in a very serious sense but secondly also in brazil to take an example that is much admired there is enormous inequality in china central committee of the communist party i am an honorary advisor to the national academy of planners etc so i get involved in china. they have to clear that inequality is one of the big issues there and last year there were nineteen thousand revolts in china it was not the

norm rich middle classes you know so we are dealing with a system that is producing enormous inequality and i would agree with one point that was made with a rush aim which is the failure of national governments in governing finance but also in governing the larger market effects that this kind of capitalism brings all right you know whether. you go to you i mean this was financial ization of economies is this something that the developed countries have to slowly work away from i mean it's going to be in europe it's going to be a very long i'm sorry the united states is going to be a very long time to pay off this debt the debts that are being accumulated right now in the eurozone are huge as well and the timelines a lot shorter how can they move away from this financial ization process in the economy because it certainly benefits a small group. for people that have every interest in keeping it going. i disagree

with the premise yes we have seen a considerable overextension of the financial sector in handful of economies notably in the united states and in the u.k. that had a lot to do with government policy by the way because monetary policy was deliberately loose and that allowed a lot of this bubble like effect to take place but let me get back to my main point and this is where i think i would disagree somewhat with with. finance including global finance is very important and it's contributed to the broadly beneficial effects we've seen from from globalization so i don't want to see. taming or a reversal of of global finance and i think that would be that would be very counterproductive saskia talked of some economy is that had emphasized manufacturing and so-called real things. over services again i think that's

somewhat somewhat distorted way of looking at it if you like you don't like it i'm going to say it's not always everything started distorted according to you if i may come in here at this time you've got everything which is coming. yes everything which is coming from paris out at least seems that things are going fine that's a bit of trouble but they will get back into balance it's a very smart very complaisant it does not affect the facts which i put forward early on in this program if i may move forward on this do what has would you attack. go ahead ronnie keep going and we'll have what has to have that has to be an attack on global finance which is a narrow thing and devoted purely to the interests of financial corporations and their supporters people like obama are completely controlled by those institutions instead the banking system the speech stopped from creating money let it lend its own money and let it lend the money of its depositors' with permission and then

open up a new money supply from the national banks administered by the banking system for the purposes of developing and spreading they really productive economy to every single individual in the population nothing in present free market capitalism tries to do that ok what i'm proposing this is a good gentle process and it can spread productive capacity and get that balance which is required in the economy regardless of the present system about it. rodney wants to take us back to the dark ages we've had national control of finance before it's been highly destructive not a. policy not listen to what i said well that's what that's what i listened very carefully that's one that's what you certainly implied. two things about about finance and global finance i am not in favor of governments providing artificial

crutches for big banks particularly not allowing larry very sorry over is fascinating conversation we've run out of time many thanks to our guest today rodney shakespeare in ross and sally and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cross time for rules. and . strategies.

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