six thirty am in moscow thanks for being with us on our t.v. easier headlines almost all the fires have been put out in the moscow reagan but it's fall from over in other parts of the country where the plane still a record breaking heat wave earlier this month sparked thousands of wildfires which killed dozens of people and covered the top of a little blanket of toxic small. lost in translation germany divided. burning turkish police to patrol their own ethnic minority a move some say is a clear sign of discrimination plan is aimed at conflict neighborhoods but critics say it will undermine the power of german law enforcement.

force intervention the nicaraguan president calls on his latin american counterparts to put their foot down and to stand up to washington claiming it's time the u.s. government stop putting its nose in other people's business he says barack obama's promises of change are falling flat and his policies remain aggressive in the region. up to date up next we have our interview show spotlight this time host al gore and of talks to the founder of the world values study ronald ingle hard to find out if human values are changing and what he has to say about russians in particular that's coming your way in a moment here on r.t. .

hello again and welcome to the show on r.t. i'm al going on and today my guest in the studio is wrong. he made his name and sociology back in the nineteen seventies by discovering a major cultural shift in the western society to describe the new reality here introduce the word post materialist for thirty years he has been conducting the influential world values survey and wish directions human values changing we the people become a half ear and why all the nations so. ronald hart is on spotlight today to answer mine and your questions. bill hall is

a political scientist who developed the social theory of materialism the theories a useful tool in understanding modern culture used to research focuses on cultural change and its consequences he discovered the values of people in boston dust real countries remarkably his other interests carve a vast field of knowledge and his words have been translated into sixty languages professor ingle han founded and head of the global network of social scientists called the world values celebrate but only in your heart is the guest from spock like today to talk about those changes and. hello and welcome to the show thank you very much for being with us nice to be with you first of all you say in your research that in the west the transition from the society with material values to

a post material society has happened in the sixty's one exact. lee the sixty's why are you sure it didn't happen early in a later or why do you think the sixty's it began to happen in the sixty's got it began to happen in the sixty's because that was when the post-war generation began to surface and to be at all population it didn't happen over the whole world much of the world is still fairly materialist most of the world but the rich countries western europe japan north america australia just etcetera began to surface as a new kind of basic value priorities that i call post materialist in the sixty's because this was twenty years after the end of world war two the economic miracles that western europe and japan and so on experience plus the welfare state made people grow up for the first time most of the population these country was growing up under conditions where they took survival for granted this is unprecedented most people throughout most of history and most people still today grow up with survival

being uncertain with starvation being a real possibility the germans the swedes the americans who grew up in that era. didn't they took survival for granted and that was a big big change it open the way for other things to take top priority so in the sixty's we started out with student protests this was the era when student protests from six hundred sixty four sixty had to have pain you know anything only real drives on us. all around the world or in many countries there were student protests because this was a generation that for the first time. the majority of them had pushed materialist values the older people all of the older people were had been experiencing world war two the great depression world war one starvation had been very real they had they knew that this could happen and this was a different world in which imagination self-expression choosing your way of life

personal freedom were more important than ever before and at that time interestingly there was this slogan in many countries don't trust anyone over thirty because there was this big generational divide everyone older was. pre-war generations now things have changed to the point where even the middle aged people have grown up after world war two ok i have a question for you well now now days many western countries one of the best examples are greece greece portugal spain they are reducing their welfare programs they're cutting the programs the citizens have to obviously to tighten the belts. do you think it will have consequences on the people in the values of the people will they from now on have to think once again about survival rather than self-expression in the short run certainly the no one likes these measures are very

unpopular and the government in greece as you know is extremely unpopular to the point where some of the rioting. it's a real crisis the values are another thing the immediate reaction is we hate it but the basic values don't change that for us mostly values change during your first twenty years use because of basic personality that doesn't change very much afterwards so the basic values won't change overnight if what happens is the start of a decade or two decades of severe. severe poverty then they would try to work in the opposite direction to build logic you're absolutely right here in the long run if we are in a starting the great depression of the twenty first century then i would predict a turn back to all of us' and tuesday in a full be more authoritarian government all kinds of things that were characteristic of the 1930's in the great depression. russia according to your survey russia is

a country that really has very poor in terms of self-expression more or tends to. clinch the material value on the other hand russia is not. very traditional country today in all its favors it favors new values rather than its national well does it really make a difference for russia maybe russia has value is facilitate development towards a developed democracy i think that there is a great emphasis on economic development that's highly desired high priority and in fact i would say depending on what stage of development you read this is something i would give high priority to myself if i were even more so if i were governing a low income country economic development would be top priority at a higher level development it has less payoff in terms of happiness quality of life

beyond a certain point getting two cars in every garage is ok but a third car is not really doing much for you and it's adding to pollution and noise and driving all kinds of this kind of diminishing return from economic growth rushers at a stage where they have experience as you know. dreadful setbacks the. period from about the collapse of communism around ninety nine b. the breakup of the soviet union the gross national product went down to about forty percent of its former a low ball life expectancy furl order all kinds of very severe things happen and the the reaction of the russian people was reemphasizing survival values and interestingly a tendency to traditional religious values were too so they're growing and expanding in russia it's a trend where the logic is if security makes you have these new values in security

would push in the opposite direction well a russia actually has gone through a period of radical transformation and in the last twenty years the ideals were changing together with the political and economic situation spotlighted in a degree that has more in that. nine hundred ninety one so russians intoxicated by the promise of democratic freedoms after more than seventy years of to tell a terror no one could imagine then how hard the transition to a new society would be and the shelves in shops have to re standing still sell or is doing the previously on sort of idea of unemployment these were the side effects of saying goodbye to a state run economy and pointing hand first into capitalism many felt nostalgia for the economic stability of the old times the collapse of the u.s.s.r. russians had to reconcile themselves to the communist ideology afterwards they

literally had to learn to survive democratic values lost much of their in the shell charm accumulating wealth was more important the attitude was reflected in the russian pop culture which became obsessed with the phenomenon of glamour. the last decade so you can. mixed ability gradually return to russia and civil society emerging. after years of being quite passive politically russians and once again ready to go onto the streets to defend their rights the latest example a moderates who lists over the use of force and who writes on the horrors of moscow's be like. well you mentioned twenty years as like like are developing like a trend valley as well russia has been developing for the last twenty years we've changing at least rapidly so what can you say about these twenty years in in

russia's development do you think your survey have the values will change dramatically changed radically and in two ways russia along with the loose in ukraine were among the very few countries in the world industrialized countries that were moving toward survival values and traditional religious values at a time when most of the world during the first decade after nine hundred ninety s. was moving toward self-expression secularization and so on. ran two thousand russia began to get prosperous again and so that really severe repression that had had brought russians to a feeling of happiness and dissatisfaction it was extreme it russia had added one hundred ninety five the lowest level of life satisfaction and happiness of any big country under with a handful of other goodies weighed on low people much poorer countries like pakistan india nigeria this was the reaction to the world that they knew the belief

system they knew the whole world seem to come apart more recently order has been restored the country is getting more prosperous and we see signs of recovery of happiness and i think in the long run you have happens that's interesting you know you know there was one of the things we measure is happiness and that has changed this was. in general in the introduction us about happiness russia was a country that had been sharply declining over of happiness initially it was already in one hundred eighty one not very happy and then by the by the mid ninety's it was at the lowest level we've ever seen russia says sociologist professor ronald at the heart spotlight will be back shortly right after the break we'll continue in less than a minute so don't go. welcome

back to spotlight i'm al going off in just a reminder that my guest in the studio today is professor ronald angle high

director of the world values survey a global network of social scientists professor well i've read things way you measure the level of happiness or rather the level. the measure the percentage of people who feel themselves happy and certain kinds know first of all. one of the one of the best results are in countries like venezuela well which isn't the most prosperous country in the world well america is very high on this survey while italy and france are lower than that of the middle so does it mean really of the level of happiness of people who are the ability of propaganda that inside the country that charges to to to to to make people believe that they realize that what that the life they live is a happy life you know where you flatter me i would like to believe that the

american government was had a campaign to make the scores on my happiness skills come up i'm not sure that they're even aware that we're measuring happiness i think it's. i think that these are realistic mergers and if you do are going to make sense there are some surprises one thing that you won't be surprised is rich countries are happy or in poor countries a strong correlation a sort of steep increases you go from starvation you mean by rich country russia is one of the richest countries in the world with a population that it's there that is by no means one of the richest in the world so when you say richard what is russia a rich country or a poor country i mean if you income of the every dollar of that image of india it's the end of the average person and how secure they are and russia of course is a really interesting case here they have severe changes that devastated happiness in russia should people shit when i ask you about propaganda i want to know is that should the people be. think that they are happy is it good is it healthy

for a society or should the people rather say no we don't like the way we live because we want to live better what is more healthy well i think that being dissatisfied to a certain extent is good in terms of literal in terms of healthiness people who are happy tend to be healthier it's. reverse truslow relax feeling and also have a good health contributes to happiness so the two work for each other but i would say this is a real measure it correlates with a lot of other indicators that you would expect like why satisfaction job satisfaction having a family people who get divorced tend not to be happy people who get widowed tend not to be happy and a correlates with interesting things like the political level that is correlated with democracy democratic living in a democracy is a happier experience generally for living in a country russia had a very unusual transition to democracy so it what are the other way of more slowly

becoming more democratic contributes to happiness well as spotlights carts she went out to the streets of moscow and tried to find out if money can make people happy let's have a look. hi there well as the saying goes anybody who thinks money will make others happy does okabe me today i'll try to find out if it really makes people happy. and i have maybe you're probably money can give you freedom but it can't make you happy there's a saying that money can't make you happy i agree with it being. the money's fun freedom it gives you a lot of things what else any of the reasons. separates the money brings you joy you can do whatever you like whenever you want and if you have no money you can do whatever you want and if you have no money you can do what you want hence the

conclusion that money's happens. in the club. money is not the key thing in life you can't make all the money in the world and the money spoils people you know one historical books had that money and power corrupts people that means the more money you have the more you want it you want more and more more and. and i know some people who went mad because of it people just break when they go broke. or stress money doesn't make me happy because happiness is something else some people say it depends on how much you've got but in fact everything depends on the people that surround you and on your emotions and state of mind. yeah you know it's a good question i always try to make myself happy without my don't always succeed i try to do it this way. i've got to tell you

you've got a question again. which mostly with the i do have to countries have such a high suicide rate. professor that's a good question ok that's actually a mess yes it is not read it in the paper or sweden what why have they one of the highest rate of suicides. has a more you has a surprisingly high suicide rate but hungary finland to prayer and career bunch of other countries have even higher suicide rates i think there are a couple of things involved sweden does have a surprisingly high suicide rate for a country that you're happy norway denmark if you which are just as happy or happy or have low suicide rates i think that there is a historic tradition where suicide was acceptable in sweden more than in most societies the protestant countries in general religiously religiously protestant countries except suicide and i think in the norwegian tradition people sircar's

were warriors who would go into battle planning to die then in jane japan they have had a key by that they had a better they're here that's a whole culture of honor's suicide but but they do have a lower suicide rate than sweden did it's about the same that the so you're here is interesting but the. catholic countries of course stigmatize suicide you can be buried in a catholic cemetery you go to hell with a very bad thing so suicide is under reported in those countries. that's it's a very good question but i think by and large it's misleading because a tiny tiny tiny percentage of people people commit suicide we're measuring said representative sample of the population and the swedes and the danes are the norwegians reliably in survey after survey by b. or by other people a rank high in happy let's talk about russia once again you you mentioned that russia russia is their weird it is a strange situation i mean even in your survey we just heard it and this and this

low poll in the streets of moscow which which is one of the most expensive cities in the world and most of the people and we try to be objective when we do the survey say that money is isn't what you really need to be happy even in a city like moscow now if you move out like a hundred miles out of moscow i mean it will beat all of the sides so why is that happening because money is an illusion is if you think more money will buy bring more happy lately has been the only ideology and russia for the last twenty years that you've been talking now what ideology is a make twenty well it'll make you happy and people down there don't buy it i wouldn't buy it either i would say it's part of happiness when you're starving getting enough money to survive and does contribute to happiness there's this very steep increase if you go forward really desperately poor country to portugal or south korea there's a big increase in happiness above that kind of levels of it brings you less and less and even no matter where you go it's not as important as having

a happy family having good friends things like that it contributes i would not dismiss money as it's easier to be happy with money than without it but is bill gates the happiest man in the world by no means i very much doubt it he is i have no idea how happy he is but i would not. to be wildly happy either he's probably fairly satisfied with his life but. there's this diminishing returns in russia clearly is at this point where it's probably an illusion the reason why there's a solution is in the short run if you suddenly go from if you double your income suddenly you feel terrific in the short run and in six months or a year you get used to it and it does nothing for you so there's this illusion getting more big you happy and lonely doesn't much how does your rankings differ from other social logical surveys and is it meant to be different from from the very beginning you know we were interned we use the same measures and they're very

reliable for example i can show you a graph the gallup world paulist studied ninety seven of the same countries as we have studied and he's a perv there rankings and i said as i do those are almost identical it's a reliable thing these these are measures that other organizations using similar measures get similar results i think is better is something real something we're not accustomed to measuring and it's a very complicated think we're going to happiness is a lot of different things different people value different things i would say having a happy family and. being in love with somebody who loves you is probably the biggest single thing i would recommend but you know money is something you can you can set out to be sure of getting so that's a goal many people have ok you were the one that introduced the term post man materialism right so that can we if we put it simple make it simple

a post materialistic society is a society that would not ever never ever compromise freedom democracy to material values is that right that's a little extreme people are flexible and everyone likes money it's not the bush who pushes the list don't like but your goods. but i like them like everyone else they eat like everyone else too they need them they like them but they're not the top priority to give higher priority to freedom of speech of course if it was a question of living in desperate poverty they wouldn't like not listen in russia it's obvious that in russia today. money wealth personal wealth is a high priority that invading a speech freedom of president is that what you write here but like in america after nine eleven the whole nation was ready and even eager to compromise these values to security to feel more secure you know which is which is again at material things

rather than like. i mean the security is a material thing and there was a huge chance initially there was a huge overreaction today because he's recovered from it but there was a huge reaction in one day washington d.c. and new york were attacked by kind of what's coming next week and next week and next week because feeling so this is what you mean by saying people are flexible yes people respond to their basic values in the long run but they also respond what happens today they're not real but the values persist a long time but what happens today also shapes you and you're absolutely right this is exactly the kind of reaction that you would get when security is certainly threatened there was a feeling to clamp down on civil rights and do anything to be safe again but it was a short term thing that can contribute to the rise in popularity of george w.

bush thank you thank you very much professor was a pleasure to have you with us just a reminder that my guest in the studio today was famous sociologist professor ronald angle high and director of the world values survey and that's it for now from all of us here will be back tomorrow with more. until then stay in our teeth take care fank you thank. god every month we give you the future we hope you understand how we'll get there and what tomorrow brings the best in science and technology from across russia and around the world join us for technology update on our g.

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