today. because of. american. us with. nuclear program.

q. hello and welcome to cross talk i'm peter all about unfreezing assets as the polar caps melt interest in exploiting this with that region's vast resources gaining pace it could be years before the arctic borders are finalized in the meantime claimants equating facts on the ocean floor. to.

discuss the arctic future i'm joined by terry mcallister in london he's the guardian's energy editor here in the studio with me is priscilla wool executive director at the northern forum and lars collude he's the president of the university of the arctic and another member of our cross-talk team on the hunger of terry if i can go to you first there's a conference that's been going on here in moscow the arctic territory of dialogue and there are two words i keep hearing all the time is dialogue cooperation dialogue and cooperation i want laci i watched a lot of the festivities and what was going on there the speakers of course the prime minister of russia vladimir putin spoke again a lot of consensus consensus consensus but my my father is knowing a lot about energy and you knowing more about energy is can we can we do divide up all of these energy resources so peacefully and cooperatively because a lot of countries have done a lot of nasty things in history recent history for oil. yes indeed they have and i

think it's fair to say that the whole history of or oil and gas has been about conflict and you only have to look to the iraq war was that about oil or was it not there's still debate about that we've got a conflict at the moment in the far east between japan and china they're not normally antagonistic to each other but there's a punch up going there it's verbal at the moment but they're quarrelling about oil and gas and it's undoubtedly an issue that engender very high feelings there's a lot of money at stake in the oil and gas projects and i'm afraid it's nice it's nice to hear everyone talking in that kind of friendly way but i think you also hear when politicians are talking to their own constituents and we've heard it in canada we've heard it in sweden and elsewhere that they talk in a different way and they seem to have to adopt this kind of muscular approach that

sovereignty is very important so you know yes it's very high stakes i would say morris if i can go to you is interesting before we came to the studio here i was reading an op-ed in from canada one of the national newspapers there and it was a lot tougher in its rhetoric than what we hear in the conference here in moscow about cooperation they're basically saying you know the russians are moving in there they make they have a big footprint right now they got that flag on the bottom of the of the north pole i mean again politicians can be a lot more diplomatic in talking about this but there's a lot of tough decisions ahead about what's going to happen with the arctic and we're talking about decades i think it's. all politicians has a need to be tough on the home scene to show to the people that they care for them and want to give them the rights and resources etc so where you see that kind of dynamic in retore it's when it comes to oil and gas and said recently for any conflicts over the arctic i really i one hundred percent sure that will not be the true case and the reason the for any conflict in might be disputes and conflicts

about issues in the arctic the only place with big potential conflicts over sea bed which cost oil and gas is between north and russia just through seoul that we could go the other place between us and the likelihood they go to. fight over that area is probably low you know there's we can look at you know in this conference that all the countries that border the arctic people or the of the participating here but there's a lot of countries in the world that are interested in or oil in other parts of the world again we heard china right you know i mean that with the chinese the chinese will say hey you know we need some oil too and by the time this comes online china may have the largest economy in the world i mean even non claimants want to have some kind of say certainly and how this is going to be doing it who's going to get to the profits from this this region well i think that the region that we're talking about in the arctic and the oil companies who are working in this region

are multinationals we heard earlier this week at the conference that some of the offshore drilling in the russian arctic is by russian firms partnering with american firms who are using korean technology and developing their machinery of the relationship with russia and norway is absolutely so i don't see even though there are countries outside of the arctic who have a vested interest in decisions that are being made in the arctic i think they will end up being sitting at the table and participating in the discussions because. they want to see this resolved without conflict it's in everyone's best interest to get the oil out in a positive cooperative fashion terry if i go to you back in london do you think countries like india and china will want to be sitting at the table or close to the table when decisions are being made on the arctic expression with its energy riches . i don't think there's any doubt about that very keen to be at the table had been

state oil companies from india and china are very aggressive in their. buying up assets buying up fields wanting to buy companies and i think there's no doubt that they're interested in the arctic it's not just about oil i mean the breaking down of the ice across that coastline of northern siberia and the opening up of the northern sea route is a huge issue as well it means cutting down journey times from east to west. by a third and china is very interested in getting goods and services out that way so it's not just about oil it's about a mineral other mineral extraction as well it's about shipping it's about all sorts of things i think it's wishful thinking to imagine these companies and these countries are going to sit by and allow it to be divvied up between those five

countries that believe they at the moment are in the driving seat and they have sovereignty i don't think it's going to be like that. again you know when we're talking about delineating the the arctic and a number of countries are made claims not all have and maybe others will but it could take a very long time for this to happen i mean the united states is not even part of this convention it may want to sign this convention and its start its claim in the way it just drags it out it could be seven years ten years it could be decades i mean this is the united nations it work ok i mean what it is that doesn't stop anyone from moving in there at least this time because it's a big question mark right now i mean i agree you know it could be done through international law but international could be months i'm sorry years and years decades away it's not going to start from people stop people from going in there and let's say for example the chinese want to do have a say well when we mean when you make up your mind and they already have a big footprint there well there is already oil and gas or. to me in the arctic

there are companies in alaska who who are working the off shores of chalk. there's a lot of oil and gas development going on in in the russian arctic now but what we're seeing is that that oil and gas is being done in partnership so you will have for example b.p. and t. and k. working together so you have these consortiums that are being set up and if we see chinese oil companies or other outside oil companies working in the arctic i suspect it will be in partnership and probably a minority partnership with our russian company a canadian company or an alaskan company. should it just be would it be better just to keep it internationalize so you could keep conflict today because once you draw the line you saying this is ours ok because a country it's a very other european union countries they would they want to be able to cross these he's the the water when it's them is melted but if that's going to be

somebody else territory somebody control i mean doesn't the that's that's saying keeping people out they can keep people out and what about the military what about nato's use of it here i mean as much as we talk about this cooperation here in the united states the united states and nato and russia don't see eye to eye on all these will what to what degree will they be military forces allowed there i mean the united states and the soviet union during the cold war use it to prowl around under the ice and now the ice is going to be gone in that conflict is over thank goodness ok but what is the element there can a green say completely demilitarized no military force isn't it more complicated because the people who talk about the something that are going to sea bed it doesn't change the right to transport across the ocean. or even put cables or pipelines on the seabed that's a different part of their probation it when you come to us and taking part of this regulation is that just so that it china in. for example they are member of that

and use it for their own sake in the homeland so they would have a self interest in obeying the russian claim according to law of the sea and the same towards the regions so that in a way they might not want to go in there and kind of go contrary to the law of the sea in the arctic because that would open the china sea ice in the sea or similar areas to india so it isn't so easy to just dump in the arctic and then don't get the rebellion and home so that's their problem terry if i can go to you priscilla brought up the point of art of all these consortium's i mean maybe that is a way out making sure that everyone is partnered where it doesn't look like anyone's getting a lion's share as i pointed out earlier norway and russia have partnered very well in a number of projects in the north. well i think that's true i mean priscilla mentioned the way b.p. was cooperating with a russian company but it was only. about two years ago the chief executive of that company who was a b.p.

man who was american as it happens and now he's going to head up b.p. bob dudley was effectively chased out of russia and there's been a lot of comically and we have to point out it was over a shareholder in court but corporate governance i mean there was a lot of issues on both sides here in the in the n.t. and made it very clear that this was a russian company and not one who would be run by b.p. i'm not saying it's a very complicated thing but your point is taken i mean partnerships can break down very well i think also when when we're talking more widely about the arctic i mean . people. has been quite passive as it were about that about karma about what he sees happening in the arctic and hopes that that can be called peroration but equally we're in a period where nobody's actually put forward their claims to particular areas and so people can afford to be. rather sort of friendly but as i say there's different

rhetoric in places like canada where stephen harper is talked in quite sort of aggressive. about zach way about his determination about sovereignty being absolutely important leaders seem to want to and have to talk tough we've seen this with tony blair going into iraq we've seen it with mrs thatcher the iron lady going into the falkland islands a lot of leaders like to go and i would have to jump in here first i've never heard anyone say that prime minister putin was passive after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the arctic treasure stay with r.t. . if you. listen to.

the future covered i.

just. keep. listening to. welcome back to cross talk i'm peter lavelle three minute we're talking about arctic resource. but before let's see what russians think about the region and what treasures lie beneath the arctic ice the polar region is thought to contain up to a more to all the world's untapped oil and gas reserves and as the ice cap melts lucrative new shipping. planes reveal themselves to cargo cameras yet as objects stakeholders trust the responsibility that comes with arctic authority and indeed lining up to exploit the promised sources the russian public opinion research

center also citizens if arctic exploration and development is important to russia seventy percent of the respondents said it is and only fifteen percent believe it's not it's things the purse pages and the new arctic history are only just being written back to peter ok pursuit if i can go to you you live in alaska right now yes but you're from. outside of denver in colorado right you know ask thirty five years i went in that we went to the same junior high c.s. we did we discovered that it was amazing that's not today's topic ok you're being an alaskan now do you think we've learned enough about environmental protection and offshore drilling because we have the gulf. tragedy and this is you know far as i understand deeper colder is it will they have the technology in your opinion to be able to do that because there's

a huge safety element there we've never seen what it did to alaska and i think alaska still recovering we are still recovering the oil spill in prince william sound in the mid eighty's was a shock to many people how could a tragedy like this occur in such a pristine beautiful place. from the eighty's oil spill the exxon valdez oil spill alaska learned a lot about environmental regulations being prepared unfortunately it appears that other places in the world didn't learn with us and we see the spill in the gulf of mexico. for alaskans this was this was a tragedy because we had already learned the lessons you come prepared when you work offshore. the spill prevention plans that were turned in by the oil companies had statements in it about protecting walruses the last time i checked there are no walruses in the gulf of mexico so there is a they do cut and paste and it really i think they have cut and paste and i think

that's the tragedy of the of the gulf of mexico oil spill was that we learned a lesson in alaska that never got transferred but you know that the thing is terry if i can go back to you real quickly the learning learning curve for environmental protection is probably a lot of flatter than greed and again greed drives a lot of things ok i mean still going in there i mean view for see that i mean you think that you know they learned their lesson of the oil industry in their lesson i learned a lesson or they're just going to have to keep you know this trying to do their best i mean they said they did everything they could in the gulf and we saw what happened there what i'm saying is that environmental issues are going to stop these oil companies. no i don't know i don't think they are i mean the exxon valdez was a tanker running aground in alaska i mean that's quite different from drilling for oil in the gulf of mexico or anywhere else but what was so shocking about that

report that came out i mean the only real report that's come out was done by b.p. itself so far we'll get a raft of other reports but the b.p. itself admitted this huge litany of problems and b.p. is one of the top oil companies in the world the rigs that they hired trans ocean owns it they're the top per rig owner in the world and halliburton these are very very blue chip companies and they got it horribly wrong in very many ways and certainly i have got enormous reservations about the likes of cairn energy which is drilling off the coast of greenland at the moment. you know there aren't all the vessels available there if something goes wrong that they were able to call on in the gulf of mexico and as greenpeace is more than happy to point out or oil breaks up much more slowly in the arctic area than it would in the gulf large well are if you were to jump in here really jump in and say that. there is france almost at all

it's on the shallow shelf in the or think they're also the one that we people will explore in the future but the beach of this is of course that we stem should you actually try to take it out oh i think they will take it i will and it's something about the first thing you start to explore then is too late if you fight because then the economy probably goes in the greed when i say so maybe to waste them would be to up front decide in areas where you refrain from at least for many many years while driving but that it's an issue where i think it's weiss going back to any question that the states is the owner of the land is not some kind of frosty common because that will always produce those who actually is that this is a maker so one of the things that we heard this week at the dialogue the arctic dialogue several different people from several different nations including russia said there is a need for new regulations in the arctic to provide a level playing field so that with regard to environmental regulations with regard

to making decisions about oil and gas resources or other natural resources that we work with the same set of rules across the board. for example if you're going to have a tanker shipping oil or iron ore across the north sea route and it goes from norwegian waters to russian waters to u.s. waters and heads off to japan you need to understand and know that that tanker will be protected and will operate with the same rules throughout the entire route and this was a common theme this week in the discussions of it leveling the playing unit with terry i think that is go back to the my opening comments here i mean i think that they had all of these countries involved in the arctic can find a lot of consensus like dealing with an indigenous people looking at the environment all of these kind of soft stuff that's you know everyone can more or less find agreement on but i mean who gets the oil what percentage what kind of safety maybe they can compromise on safety things but at the end of the day all

these other issues are just kind of support for us because they don't really make you rich ok they may look make you look good in the eyes of public opinion but they don't make you rich. i think well i think that it's very first thing that is true i just have just been in greenland and it's absolutely fascinating because there's a set of people who are their way of life is kind of idolized by the west and they have a lot of tourists who want to go up there and see this pristine environment they want to see the the exciting sleigh riding and everything and if you talk to the people in greenland what they want they want they want oil and gas they want the same standard of living and everybody else that they see their future probably coming from the wealth the oil and gas can presume can produce so the rest of the world wants to preserve it as a pristine wilderness and see it as. a bulwark against global warming and yet they themselves have completely different ideas which is fair enough they want

self-determination they want a decent standard of living i think mars they're very important point that is very necessary for the people of the north actually to be equipped to make wise decision themself it cannot be so that people in different countries way of apart from there shall make this issue for them and that is what makes the conflict and i think the tragedy or the challenge here is exactly what you know i describe about the issue of greenland they need income they need money and the simplest way for them is actually define oil and if that's also the case rather northern countries i'm in a week since we do the same all along it is a bit sad that we are not brave enough not to make that income on the other hand there's nobody else but their sovereign states of the arctic including greenland who has the right to make the decision the challenge is to equipment with the knowledge that they actually do it at least to some extent wisely and the challenges may be bigger if the oil price is low because the most poor country wants to continue to be their own land to do in companies that are lower standards

if it isn't the high oil price and high standards so well that they you know if they. just going to raise one very great but i just weighs one very important point that comes up with greenland and this is a country that's got fifty thousand people barely the size of cambridge in england where i live it's a very small population in a massive land mass i think these. small populated countries with small governments are very vulnerable to being manipulated by absolutely enormous multinational oil companies and if we see what's happened in places like nigeria where there's been a huge number of oil spills there's been none of the attention that has been given to b.p. in the gulf that was because you've got a very very powerful government who really went to town on b.p. but in other areas of the world where the smaller less powerful governments they've been pushed and pulled around by big oil companies and oil spills another

degradation has happened and that's an issue of great concern i think when you take issue with a little bit of what terry has said. i think there's a little a lot of difference between the indigenous people and the residents of the arctic and people in other places like nigeria the dialogue in the arctic has been good for twenty years and that dialogue has included the residents of the arctic and the indigenous people i don't know any indigenous people in the arctic who would sit back passively and allow an oil company to go forward without stepping up and saying something i see this in alaska with the indigenous people in alaska i see it in canada they are not passive people and they're not afraid to speak up so terry i think. i think there's a little bit that's different in the arctic i would also says i respect that they i

mean they're green i would not like the comparison you made even if you. agree with you i don't think they would be very huffy without parallel but and it's an important thing that there is this you will have to choose to look at there i think it's a place of hope of a model of corporation between in his people's other northerners on the government's or one can look at it of course created go scene and take out the resources and it's not only all the oil and gas it's old but russia big time and it's also of the minerals in the north that's always force potential for tourism for into his company coming in and kind of overruling the local people just like description on the trees cruise ships in greenland isn't better. so i'll buy the silence of the norway the summer that was two cruise ships standing on some rocks luckily nothing read about how bad it seems like it seems like we have a very hard time have a hard time with the learning curve here with all of the run out of time many thanks to my guests today in london and here in the studio in moscow and thanks to

our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember crosstalk. take. a close up game has been to the our hangal speak. for the first russian fleet was called. goes to the area which holds top position in the gas resources. for the biggest russian salmon caviar processing factories located. somewhere unique species apart from a can be found. should close up.