by setting up an official political party. as we have lines here in our tea in our debate show cross talk is next for peter lavelle's guests clash over illegal immigration in europe and the united states. nineteen thirty eight england and france try to reason with hitler germany demands of the land and gets its way they all thought they had created a safety net for themselves in nineteen thirty nine the whole of europe isn't going to war efforts to establish a system of collective security nine hundred thirty eight failed and it's still on the agenda. the lessons to be learned from the munich agreement on r t. can you can. start. to.

follow it and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle who are they undocumented immigrants or illegal aliens a label that protects or punishes as an anti immigration groundswell threatens europe and splits the us we cast a cold eye over the debate what we find is heated rhetoric finger pointing and few easy answers. and you can. start. to discuss if immigrants should stay or go i'm joined by michelle they're low cost in phoenix she is the founder of mothers against illegal aliens in durham we go to jake a big dork he's a professor at duke university in fort worth we crossed to one hundred and this he's an international political consultant and author of the recent book new american pioneers why are we afraid of mexican immigrants and another member of our cross-talk team you know on the hunger all right folks cross talk rules in effect

we have a lot of different differing opinions on this program so i'm first i'm going to go to jake up and in researching this program one of the things i i found interesting and almost amusing. then worrying is that the myths about immigration it seems like everybody's got their ten eleven fifteen points the myths about immigration in your opinion and you're an expert on this an academic expert on this what is the single biggest myth to dispel what you would like to dispel about immigration particularly in the united states and all three of you or in the united states i think that the most important thing that everyone needs to recognize is that the debate in the united states is not without precedent there have been many episodes in american history where we've gone through the exact same debate if you look around the world there are countries from australia to europe that are undergoing similar debates immigration today and immigration historically has

always been about the movement of people from poor countries to rich countries the threat that is perceived in rich countries is a threat primarily to the way of life we enjoy much better living standards in rich countries than in poor countries and the concern whether we're talking about the united states or we're talking about western europe is the concern that as more immigrants flow into the country there's a threat to the economic way of life. and you're saying that you have borne what you're saying that you're saying that's a myth. no i'm saying that this is the this is all very true but we have to understand that we've had this exact same debate before one hundred years ago in the united states there was great concern about immigrants from southern europe and from eastern europe if you think about the united states today we don't worry so much about the children of those the talian immigrants so much anymore they've managed to integrate themselves there's

a there are concerns about economic integration there are concerns about cultural integration we were very worried one hundred years ago that immigrants from eastern europe would just not fit in in the united states and it was a form they would turn into this permanent subculture and i'm ok i don't want anybody to show that i show you one of the you know i'm just i'm really impressed i'm really impressed that this man seems to know what though he lived one hundred years ago as to what they were thinking back then today in the united states the people in a matter of america are not against immigrants this whole idiology of what he's talking about using the word immigrants is not the case at all in the united states the united states citizens are upset that our borders are not secure and i don't think that's unrealistic for any country any nation for the citizens of that nation to want their borders to be secure because our borders have not been secure for so many years back since reagan gave the first amnesty back you know twenty years ago and even after nine eleven in new york city almost what less than

a decade ago we still do not have secure borders and where we've got you know people yes we've got a majority of people crossing our border from our southern border but we've got people crossing from our north to and i'm sure both of your guests wouldn't disagree with me but you know we also have recently though and i did an interview on this al-shabaab coming through texas which is you know other terrorist organizations that are coming through our southern border i mean these are the things that the american people are very concerned about when you guest just mentioned the children from the tell you the italian immigrants that were here and that have simulated yeah you know you're right they have. simulated but the problem that we have specifically with people coming from our southern border is that many of them are not simulating and i'm sure that you know some of your guests are going to do that all right then let's do them right let's do that sarah kay ok if one if i can go to you why are we afraid of mexican immigrants and i can use part of the title of your new book. they're not a maryland. michel and i'm sorry but

the screaming attitude doesn't help for for us to be able to have a conversation about immigration by the way to tell you these michel that's not that's number you tell you that's not very nice i don't know please michel please we must separate so this is a record that people are quiet they want to try to like me show me the money this is you know this is a show over three people no no no don't tell me what you have for your lazy days really it's all one please go no no no i'm not going to speak if she's not going to let me out myself michele no my michelle he's there is i once know we have three years on this program i remember usually i asked a question of each person now i'm going to one please there you go thank you very much i do appreciate it i think that we must separate border security from immigration and i believe the talk today is about immigration most u.s. citizens and i found this throughout the world and i've been outspoken in front of the united nations with regard to the rights of immigrants most u.s.

citizens would like to buy things very quickly make sure that they're not criminals in most studies in the united states including the migration policy institute which did a very serious research shows that the immigrants coming to the united states today or or the group at least commits crimes number two they want to make sure that these individuals pay taxes i don't like paying taxes no one does but i agree and many of them already do number three you know the one that is the stickiest they want them to learn english that is the thing that bothers us america's the most as do with cultural aspect. as you've already mentioned number four they want to make sure these individuals some want to make sure that they pay a fine for having come without documents because i don't you know but to date there is still no fine for crossing the line it's not criminal the punishment is just to send you home so it's not a crime to come without documents and they should and then number five want to make sure that they're not taking away jobs that the economy doesn't go down and i think

those are all five fair. points that the americans want now if those five or points are taken care of if you will than most americans say what's the problem list go ahead and document these undocumented people ok jacob if i can go to you i mean do you how much did in your opinion in looking at the all those points that we just mentioned just earlier but how much throw in the economic recession how much is this made it worse you know taking away jobs of americans when again you know i mean i come from southern california i can remember going through this debate growing up is it actually don't take too many jobs away from the people that are already there because most of those jobs are people that don't want to do that kind of work and and it goes on so forth but with his economic recession everybody's got hit from top to bottom that's why we call it a recession so how much is the recession play into this right wild rhetoric sometimes that that happens on air. interesting thing about the recession if you look at the recession it's true jobs have disappeared millions of jobs have

disappeared with the recession but also millions of immigrants have decided to go home yes because of this recession so i think that the recession has actually taken a little bit of the pressure off for the time being the flow of migrants across the southern border from mexico whether it's legal or illegal most estimates suggest that that has actually leveled off or declined as a result of the recession the recession is not going to last forever this is a problem that is going to reappear so we can't say that because of the recession this problem is over it's done with it's just that there's a temporary lull the question of what do we do about it if i could no border security yes sure. juan want to do a little he would finish well i think that there's two to views on this and i think that on the one hand there are some that say that for example the minimum wage in the united states may have not climbed up to where it should be

because of the documented here and i think we need to analyze that it may be true on the other hand there are all kinds of studies that say that if we do legalize deliver the moon to be incredible boost to the economy because these are mostly young people they'll be able to come out of the shadows buy cars get insurance buy homes and it's cetera and i think that we need to do even further research to find we we may be hurting ourselves by closing those borders so much ok michelle you've been very patient i know michelle now she gave a big sign there i know where it came from michelle go ahead. it just amazes me because i mr and this is obviously talking about amnesty all the way down the board and i don't care which way you want to make the sandwich it's still a baloney sandwich ok the reality is this these people are taking jobs that americans will do yeah granted there might be some of those jobs in the fields as you know picking fruit or what have you in california i'm here in phoenix arizona we have these illegal alien day laborers aligning our streets at the wal-mart at

the home depot and they are doing what picking fruit you know they're doing construction jobs they're doing painting they're building homes that should be given jobs to american guys we've got contractors american contractors home builders that have to compete in the lower their wages because the illegal aliens are lining our streets and believe me they're not taking up five dollars an hour ok because i can tell you a matter of fact they're taking no less than ten fifteen sometimes twenty dollars per hour which is sometimes even more than what a normal american citizen man or woman would make in the same job all right so don't i you know i just hate this rhetoric of this own you know these poor people and coming out of the shadows let me tell you they came out of the shadows didn't they they were marching down our streets in the millions and everybody in the world saw that even though. oh come on give me a very heavily on the radio. show i want to say one point their children that they're having here while they're hairy illegal as well as a huge issue when there is an issue as well as shoshanna closer here to this story

you're not going to let me finish now this is the compassion i mean those people want to talk about the feelings they want to feel they want to make everybody think that the law should have feelings and that we should think that well you know if someone committed murder let's feel bad for them because they came from a bad home that's only early so when you are. laws or you're going to hurt her during the united states by by harboring illegal aliens with your words and your rhetoric ok mr. harrison gestures or. you could read. after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the politics of immigration stay with art. and.

eleven. sixteenth's.

and. welcome back to talk time people about remind you we're talking about immigration. but before let's see what russians think about this. social tension over immigration affects many countries and has split electoral rates around the world global media closer cover immigration as debates often heated and bitter russian public opinion research center poll assessed attitudes to immigration in the

country sixty three percent of all respondents associated immigration with increasing criminality and corruption twenty percent said immigration is good for economic development and another seventeen percent believe immigrants make russia more open for new cultures and ideas well the up to four minute immigrants living in russia it's unlikely that issue will be out of the news anytime soon. i want to go to you you know again in researching this program we come across these again i said are these myths here about you know first of all wages immigrants are tax the welfare system criminality all of these issues here in and i could find counter arguments to every single one and then counter counter encounter one of the things i think is interesting in this debate and it's happening in europe as i pointed out there's talk of it here in russia as well criminality and people from the caucuses coming here in the stands but why isn't there

a solid information base that everybody can use to analyze from because i come from wildly different numbers from all these organizations pseudo organizations opinions and that's what has happened in debate in in the u.s. a lot is there's no single database anymore everybody goes for their own is that politicized and there's that racism as well. well it's a little bit of everything that you said it's become very political unfortunately the republicans with george w. bush and as your guest mentioned reagan a republican was and i'm a republican by the way and i'm a conservative and i am a christian and most people want to link me over with the left but reagan. the want to pass yes an amnesty and yes it was the right thing to do at that time and i don't know why people think that amnesty is a four letter word as we say the united states of it has more than four letters but the idea is that it's become so political the republicans were able to fix it with

george bush and now the democrats even though president obama promised it a lot of people in the united states called him the first latino president because he got so many latino votes but latinos are very disappointed he's losing their support very rapidly because he promised that in the first year he would pass a legalization of the undocumented and he hasn't even really pushed it so democrats and republicans are having a very difficult time with this issue and and yes you have close to fifty million forty eight million hispanics in this station like myself who have friends and maybe family members who are undocumented i mean you're talking about my friends and my family members that that's that's very close to heart and so to speak of them with vocabulary that isn't very nice to bunch them in with killers with murderers with the rapist when it's just another group that is coming to this nation another group of immigrants that have been a blessing to this nation and these latinos these new immigrants will also be

opposing to the united states all right michel go ahead jump in. well i wish he would have asked you to answer your question but since he went off on another angle here everything he's talking about has to do with his feelings it doesn't have to do with immigration and when we're talking about immigrants my mother was an immigrant from germany who came here illegally that is what the definition of an immigrant is when you have people illegally entering your country like we do here in the united states and you have over in russia and every other country yes it's gone on for hundreds of years people have entered illegally but the cost to nations has as it has been has just ballooned it's just blown up when you look at the united states with our social services and the hospital costs for the welfare system and all of the costs that are associated yes sure they put a little bit of money in from working but you know it doesn't really offset the millions of dollars the billions of dollars that is being put out and expended for them ok if you talk about another thing and i know you guys have this issue in russia the whole aspect of not assimilation coming to

a country illegally not because they want to be american not because they want to be russian but because they just want to be there illegally and there are pockets of groups of different nationalities not learning the language and then and they do grow and then you have the riots then you have the marches and then they feel like they have the power to say listen you are compassionate for our group of people in your country and we're immigrants and you and your country was formed on an immigration you know how can you fight that yes every country was formed on immigration i'm not going to debate that and that is a good thing illegal immigration is a very good thing people who want to come to your country be it any country want to learn the language and want to contribute but you know i don't throw in mr hernandez your family and this hits home you know why because if you're a doctor and operating on your own family member people don't you when you're too close to the subject you're not thinking rationally about how it really mean. to a show and all in all fairness every immigration in history is done that you bring your relatives later on ok i have relatives in my family they are from. you get

around they want to see a plane and then. starting about through your spine you can. go now you. know all the screaming that you don't know when they're already in the other country you don't get allies you go away don't you say ok i don't know noj we don't have people come into our country illegally and then say here now legalize me no you have to come in legally you don't come in illegally and then say i don't have time to hear you know i don't really pirating it is really their judge a could go ahead jump in so all right so you know what a couple of points here up until nine hundred twenty there was no illegal immigration to the united states because the united states had an open borders policy so that's it with the exception of chinese which we excluded until the fifty's right so we have to remember that that the whole notion of an illegal immigrant is is historically speaking it's a new thing michel asked me earlier how do i know what people were thinking in one thousand ten well it turns out that they wrote some things down and so if you just look through the historical record on this you can see and you know i know i have

a grandfather who came over as a great great grandfather who came over from germany in the eight hundred fifty s. but the germans were not a welcome with open arms they receive the same kind of reception that today's immigrants are receiving benjamin franklin wrote about german immigrants in the seven hundred he did not like them he wanted them to go home and so this this notion that people are angry about immigration the notion that people don't think that immigrants are going to assimilate and all that that is not new and you know what all the german americans today i don't see very much concern about german americans in the united states today it's just it's just an empirical fact that it's true that the rate of language learning for adults who come to the united states whether we're talking about one hundred years ago or today it's low adults have a hard time learning new languages and lived in hits and lives are a different story inch and so are you going if i can and in this changing of the united states even as we speak most people watching internationally may have heard

or may have not that this week we almost. passed the dream act as it's called to legalize the eight hundred thousand children of those who came in and documented allow them to go to the universities or to the armed forces and be able to become citizens of the united states there is a total a shift now and you want to see it in the coming weeks because there are two main groups now but it's really come out of the closet you have the people of faith the evangelicals and the catholics and dow have started coming out yes marching with the compassion saying these are people too and then you have the nice side you have for example the houston partnership which has over eight hundred companies representing one point six trillion dollars they have come out on the side of legalizing gay and documented and let me agree with me shill in creating a system in which people can come legally we need according to most thirty's and you're right is studies can prove anything but most of the show that we need about four hundred thousand new people every year in the united states to keep our

economy going to keep growing at one percent but we only give about sixty thousand visas let's do a real good study find out how many people we need give the visas then get a script as we want to be with regard to asking for papers to hire people find the people who hire without having papers build whatever walls you want to bill but let's have a system so that you can have the article we need and then you want to have people i mean i guess this isn't your dream legislation is it. know i just find it amusing because he's making it sound like well the dream act almost passed and it's like i'd rather say they've been trying over three different times or more to try to get this dream act passed and they keep failing when they try to get amnesty passed and we the american people keep fighting back we're standing up and you know what it's when you're in a race it's either you're the winner you the loser and they keep losing although they're losing they think that oh look we almost made it i mean they haven't ok the

reality is no these are so we're not sure we want to get in but the united states usually does at the end of the day the right thing and you know just so you will do the regular running out of time in america believe me they're running out of time yes can you does it and that shows you is your idea for a bond issue that you that you talked about. that nobody likes illegal immigration the reason that we can't find political compromise is that people can't figure out what they want to do about legal immigration so we expand it should we contract at the proposal that i have in my book is that we should expand it but we should introduce a program that increases the costs of entering the country and offers rebates to people who take actions that everybody agrees that immigrants should take learn english become a citizen that's it in a nutshell what do you think about that don give incentives given to do the right thing in center that's exactly what i'm talking about when i say that i believe in monetary incentives what i believe is that the united states of america wants us to stop screaming at each other and they want solutions in this nation and finally

some proposals are coming forth and i believe that maybe during the lame duck session that's november december january we might have a good bill if not hopefully early two thousand and eleven a bill that will legalize the undocumented create a new program and get us now into other issues that the american people really want to work on like finding jobs and getting out of this economic mess ok michelle i'm going to give you the last word what is the single most important thing you would like to see done real quick. i'm just proud of the american people that are standing up for this country and not taking the rhetoric from the those who say they're republicans like your guest who's who's up who's and he's basically a democrat and a republican the suit you know the american people can see through this garbage and we're not going to fall for it and the american people are fighting back and we're winning and then a lame duck success then i put pretty much put money on it it's not going to pass and it won't pass as we have all the time we have many many thanks to my guest

today in durham phoenix and fort worth and thanks to our viewers for watching us here arche see you next time and remember a prosthetic rules. and. still. wealthy british scientists say the time is right for. markets. find out what's really happening to the global economy for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune in to gaza report on

our team.

sating china's relentless third. goes with the flow to russia's neighbor with a new oil link that's no pipe dream. see the un human rights council looks for violations during israel's raid on an aid flotilla heading for a blockade of gaza. and a new political movement and russia is campaigning on a pledge to decriminalize internet piracy. on the business the second wall street movie on insider trading in the us and cinema in a similar film. who spent over ten years as a traitor.