hello and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle who are they undocumented immigrants or illegal aliens a label that protects or punishes as an anti immigration groundswell threatens europe and splits the u.s. we cast a cold eye over the debate what we find is heated rhetoric finger pointing and few easy answers. and you can. discuss if immigrants should stay or go i'm joined by michelle they're low cost in phoenix she is the founder of mothers against illegal aliens in durham we go to jake a big dork he's a professor at duke university in fort worth we cross to one hundred and this he's an international political consultant and author of the recent book new american pioneers why are we afraid of mexican immigrants and another member of our crosstalk team on the hunger all right folks cross talk rules and in fact we have a lot of different differing opinions on this program so i'm first i'm going to go

to jake up and in researching this program one of the things i i found interesting and almost amusing and then worrying is that the myths about immigration it seems like everybody's got their ten eleven fifteen points the myths about immigration in your opinion and you're an expert on this an academic expert on this what is the single biggest myth to dispel what you would like to dispel about immigration particularly in the united states since all three of the you are in the united states. i think that the most important thing that everyone needs to recognize is that the debate in the united states is not without precedent there have been many episodes in american history where we've gone through the exact same debate if you look around the world there are countries from australia to europe that are undergoing similar debates immigration today and immigration historically has always been about the movement of people from poor countries to

rich countries the threat that is perceived in rich countries is a threat primarily to the way of life we enjoy much better living standards in rich countries than in poor countries and the concern whether we're talking about the united states or we're talking about western europe is the concern that as more immigrants flow into the country there's a threat to the economic way of life. and you're saying they have borne what you're saying that you're saying that's a myth. and no i'm saying that this is the this is all very true but we have to understand that we've had this exact same debate before one hundred years ago in the united states there was great concern about immigrants from southern europe and from eastern europe if you think about the united states today we don't worry so much about the children of those the talian immigrants so much anymore they've managed to integrate themselves there's their concerns about economic integration their concerns about cultural integration we were very worried one hundred years

ago that immigrants from eastern europe would just not fit in in the united states and he was a form they would turn into this permanent subculture and i'm ok i don't want anybody to show that i show you one of the you know i'm just i'm really impressed i'm really impressed that this man seems to know what though he lived one hundred years ago as to what they were thinking back then today in the united states the people in america america are not against immigrants this whole idiology of what he's talking about using the word immigrants is not the case at all in the united states the united states citizens are upset that our borders are not secure and i don't think that's unrealistic for any country any nation for the citizens of that nation to want their borders to be secure because our borders have not been secure for so many years back since reagan gave the first amnesty back you know twenty years ago and even after nine eleven in new york city almost what less than a decade ago we still do not have secure borders and where we've got you know

people yes we've got a majority of people crossing our border from our southern border but we've got people crossing from our north to and i'm sure both of your guests wouldn't disagree with me but you know we also have recently though and i did an interview on this al-shabaab coming through texas which is you know other terrorist organizations that are coming through our southern border i mean these are the things that the american people are very concerned about when you guest just mentioned the children from the tell you the italian immigrants that were here and that have simulated yeah you know you're right they have. simulated but the problem that we have specifically with our people coming from our southern border is that many of them are not simulating and i'm sure that you know some of your guests are going to do that all right then let's do them right where students are ok it's ok if one if i go to you why are we afraid of mexican immigrants by good news part of the title of your new book. they're not. the ones i had. michel and i'm sorry but the screaming attitude doesn't help for for us to be

able to have a conversation about immigration by the way to tell you that i am japanese michel that's not that's number you tell you that very night on a no please michel please we must separate so this is a record that people are quite. common in this is no this is a show over three people no no no don't tell me what i have four hundred. one please go no no no i am not going to speak if she's not going to let me out myself michaud no my michelle these there is a difference no reason to bring us on this program i remember you say yeah ask a question of each person now i'm going to one please there you go thank you very much i do appreciate it i think that we must separate border security from immigration and i believe the talk today is about immigration most u.s. citizens and i found this throughout the world and i've been outspoken in front of the united nations with regard to the rights of immigrants most u.s.

citizens would like to buy things very quickly make sure that they're not criminals in most cities in the united states including the migration policy institute which did a very serious research shows that the immigrants coming to the united states today or or the group at least commits crimes number two they want to make sure that these individuals pay taxes i don't like paying taxes no one does but i agree in many of them already do number three you know the one that is the stickiest they want them to learn english that is the thing that bothers us america's the most as do with cultural aspects as you've already mentioned number four they want to make sure these individuals some want to make sure that they pay a fine for having come without documents because i don't you know but to date there is still no fine for crossing the line it's not criminal the punishment is just to send you home so it's not a crime to come without documents and they should and then number five someone. i want to make sure that they're not taking away jobs that the economy doesn't go down and i think those are all five clear. points that the americans want now if

those five or points or taken care of if you will than most americans say what's the problem list go ahead and document these undocumented people ok jacob if i can go to you i mean do you how much do in your opinion in looking at the go all those points that were just mentioned just earlier but how much throw in the economic recession how much is this made it worse you know taking away jobs of americans when again you know i mean i come from southern california i can remember going through this debate growing up is it actually don't take too many jobs away from the people that are already there because most of those jobs are people that don't want to do that kind of work and and it goes on so forth but with his economic recession everybody's got hit from top to bottom that's why we call it a recession so how much is the recession play into this right wild rhetoric sometimes that it happens on air interesting thing about the recession if you look at the recession it's true jobs have disappeared millions of jobs have disappeared

with the recession but also millions of immigrants have decided to go home yes because of this recession so i think that the recession has actually taken a little bit of the pressure off for the time being the flow of migrants across the southern border from mexico whether it's legal or illegal most estimates suggest that that has actually leveled off or declined as a result of the recession the recession is not going to last forever this is a problem that is going to reappear so we can't say that because of the recession this problem is over it's done with it's just there's a temporary lull the question of what do we do about it if i could no border security yes sure. juan want to know a little eliot in finnish well i think that there are two two views on this and i think that on the one hand there are some that say that for example the minimum wage in the united states may have not climbed up to where it should be because of having the documented here and i think we need to analyze that it may be

true on the other hand there are all kinds of studies that say that if we do legalize the eleven million to be incredible boost to the economy because these are mostly young people they'll be able to come out of the shadows buy cars get insurance buy homes and it's cetera and i think that we need to do even further research to find we we may be hurting ourselves by closing those borders so much ok michelle you've been very patient and i go to michelle now she gave a big sign there i know where it came from michelle go ahead. it just amazes me because i used are. obviously talking about amnesty all the way down the board and i don't care which way you want to make the sandwich it's still a baloney sandwich ok the reality is this these people are taking jobs that americans will do yeah granted there might be some of those jobs in the fields as you know picking fruit or what have you in california i'm here in phoenix arizona we have these illegal alien day laborers aligning our streets at the wal-mart at the home depot and they are doing what picking fruit you know they're doing

construction jobs they're doing painting they're building homes that should be given jobs to american guys we've got contractors american contractors home builders that have to compete in the lower their wages because the illegal aliens are lining our streets and believe me they're not taking up five dollars an hour ok because i can tell you a matter of fact they're taking no less than ten fifteen sometimes twenty dollars per hour which is sometimes even more than what a normal american citizen man or woman would make in the same job all right so don't i you know i just hate this rhetoric of this all you know these poor people and coming out of the shadows let me tell you they came out of the shadows didn't they they were marching down our streets in the millions and everybody in the world saw that even in. come on give me a very heavily on the radio. show i want to say one point their children that they're having here while they're hairy illegal as well as a huge issue when it is an issue as when there's shoshana killed here to this story you're not going to let me finish now this is the compassion i mean those people

want to talk about the feelings they want to feel they want to make everybody think that the law should have feelings and that we should think that well you know if someone committed murder let's feel bad for them because they came from a bad home that's only early so when you are a murderer and there are laws in order for you to be where you're going to hurt her during the united states by by harboring illegal aliens with your words and your rhetoric ok mr. harrison the judges are. great. after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the politics of immigration stay with r.t. . and. eleven

. just.

welcome back to our all star crime people about to remind you we're talking about immigration. and. the border let's see what russians think about this. social tension over immigration affects many countries and has split electoral rates around the world global media closer cover immigration as debates often heated and bitter russian public opinion research center poll assessed attitudes to immigration in the country sixty three percent of all respondents associated immigration with

increasing criminality and corruption twenty percent said immigration is good for economic development and another seventeen percent believe immigrants make russia more open for new cultures and ideas well the up to four minute immigrants living in russia it's unlikely that issue will be out of the news anytime soon i. want to go to you you know again in researching this program we come across these again i said are these myths here about you know first of all wages immigrants are tax the welfare system criminality all of these issues here in and i could find counter arguments to every single one and then counter counter encounter one of the things i think is interesting in this debate and it's happening in europe as i pointed out there's talk of it here in russia as well criminality and people from the caucuses coming here in the stands but why isn't there a solid information base that everybody can use to analyze from because i come from

wildly different numbers from all these organizations pseudo organizations opinions and that's what has happened in debate in in the u.s. a lot is there's no single database anymore everybody goes for their own is that politicized and is that racism as well. well it's a little bit of everything that you said it's become very political unfortunately the republicans with george w. bush and as your guest mentioned reagan a republican was and i'm a republican by the way and i'm a conservative and i am a christian and most people want to link me over with the left but reagan. was the one to pass yes an amnesty and yes it was the right thing to do at that time and i don't know why people think that amnesty is a four letter word as we say the united states has more than four letters but the idea is that it's become so political the republicans were able to fix it with george bush and now the democrats even though president obama promised it

a lot of people in the united states called him the first latino president because he got so many latino votes but latinos are very disappointed he's losing their support very rapidly because he promised that in the first year he would pass a legalization of the undocumented and he hasn't even really pushed it so democrats and republicans are having a very difficult time with this issue and and yes you have close to fifty million forty eight million hispanics in this station like myself who have friends and maybe family members who are undocumented i mean you're talking about my friends and my family members that that's that's very close to heart and so to speak of them with vocabulary that isn't very nice to bunch them in with killers with murderers with the rapist when it's just another group that is coming to this nation another group of immigrants that have been a blessing to this nation and these latinos these new immigrants will also be opposing to the united states all right michel go ahead jump in. well i wish he

would have asked you to answer your question but since he went off on another angle here everything he's talking about has to do with his feelings it doesn't have to do with immigration and when we're talking about immigrants my mother was an immigrant from germany who came here illegally that is what the definition of an immigrant is when you have people illegally entering your country like we do here in the united states and you have over in russia and every other country yes it's gone on for hundreds of years people have entered illegally but the cost to nations has as it has been has just ballooned it's just blown up when you look at the united states with our social services and the hospital costs for the welfare system and all of the costs that are associated yes sure they put a little bit of money in from working but you know it doesn't really offset the millions of dollars the billions of dollars that is being put out and expended for them ok if you talk about another thing and i know you guys have this issue in russia the whole aspect of not assimilation coming to a country illegally not because they want to be american not because they want to

be russian but because they just want to be there illegally and there are pockets of groups of different nationalities not learning the language and then and they do grow and then you have the riots then you have the marches and then they feel like they have the power to say listen you are compassionate for our group of people in your country and we're immigrants and you and your country was formed on an immigration you know how can you fight that yes every country was formed on immigration i'm not going to debate that and that is a good thing illegal immigration is a very good thing people who want to come to your country be it any country want to learn the language and once they contribute but you know i don't throw in mr hernandez your family and this hits home you know why because if you were a doctor and operating on your own family member people don't you when you're too close to the subject you're not thinking rationally about how it really. and all in all fairness every immigration in history is done that you bring your relatives later on ok i have relatives in my family are from. you grand and want to see

a plane and then. starting about to your spine starting a no no no you don't want to. know all the screaming if you don't know i'm there already any other country you don't date allies do you go away did you say ok i don't know no no no jew we don't have people come into our country illegally and then say here now legalize me no you have to come in legally you don't come in illegally and then say i don't care how does your you know i don't really pirating it is really their judge a could go ahead jump in so all right so you know what a couple of points here up until nine hundred twenty there was no illegal immigration to the united states because the united states had an open borders policy so that's it with the exception of chinese which we excluded until the fifty's right so we have to remember that that the whole notion of an illegal immigrant is is historically speaking it's a new thing michel asked me earlier how do i know what people were thinking in one thousand ten well it turns out that they wrote some things down and so if you just look through the historical record on this you can see and you know i know i have a grandfather who came over as

a great great grandfather who came over from germany in the eight hundred fifty s. but the germans were not a welcome with open arms they receive the same kind of reception that today's immigrants are receiving benjamin franklin wrote about german immigrants in the seven hundred he did not like them he wanted them to go home and so this this notion that people are angry about immigration the notion that people don't think that immigrants are going to assimilate and all that that is not new and you know what all the german americans today i don't see very much concern about german americans in the united states today it's just it's just an empirical fact that it's true that the rate of language learning for adults who come to the united states whether we're talking about one hundred years ago or today it's low adults have a hard time learning languages and lives are a different story inch and some are going to be good if i can and in this changing of the united states even as we speak most people watching internationally may have heard or may have not but this week we almost. passed the dream act as it's called

to legalize the eight hundred thousand children of those who came in and documented allow them to go to the universities or to the armed forces and be able to become citizens of the united states there is a total a shift now and you want to see it in the coming weeks because there are two main groups now but it's really come out of the closet you have the people of faith the evangelicals and the catholics and dow have started coming out yes marching with the compassion saying b.s. or people too and then you have the side you have for example the houston partnership which has over eight hundred companies representing one point six trillion dollars they have come out on the side of legalizing gay and documented and and let me agree with me shill in creating a system in which people can come legally we need according to most thirty's and you're right studies can prove anything but most of the show that we need about four hundred thousand new people every year in the united states to keep our economy going to keep growing at one percent but we only give about sixty thousand

visas let's do a real good study find out how many people we need give the visas then get a script as we want to be with regard to asking for papers to hire people find the people who hire without having papers build whatever walls you want to build but let's have a system so that you can have the right all we need and then you want to have people i mean i guess this isn't your dream legislation is it. know i just find it amusing because he's making it sound like well the dream act almost passed and it's like i'd rather say they've been trying over three different times or more to try to get this dream act passed and they keep failing when they try to get amnesty passed and we the american people keep fighting back we're standing up and you know what it's when you're in a race it's either you're the winner you the loser and they keep losing although they're losing they think that oh look we almost made it i mean they haven't ok the reality is no these are so naturally they want to get in but the united states

usually does at the end of the day the right thing and you know just so you will do the regular running out of time in america believe me they're running out of time yes can you does in a nutshell is your idea for of this this bond issue that you that you talked about . that nobody likes illegal immigration the reason that we can't find political compromise is that people can't figure out what they want to do about legal immigration should we expand it should we contract that the proposal that i have in my book is that we should expand it but we should introduce a program that increases the costs of entering the country and offers rebates to people who take actions that everybody agrees that immigrants should take learn english become a citizen that's it in a nutshell what do you think about that don give incentives kind of incentive to do the right thing in center that's exactly what i'm talking about you say that i believe in monetary and what i believe is that the united states of america wants us to stop screaming at each other and they want solutions in this nation and finally some proposals are coming forth and i believe that maybe during the lame

duck session that's november december january we might have a good bill if not hopefully early two thousand and eleven a bill that will legalize the undocumented create a new program and get us now into other issues that the american people really want to work on like finding jobs and getting out of this economic mess ok michelle i'm going to give you the last word what is the single most important thing you would like to see done real quick. i'm just proud of the american people that are standing up for this country and not taking the rhetoric from the those who say they're republicans like your guest who's who's up who's and he's basically a democrat and a republican the suit you know the american people can see through this garbage and we're not going to fall for it and the american people are fighting back and we're winning and then the lame duck section says said i put pretty much put money on it it's not going to pass and it won't pass on friday as we have all the time we have many many thanks to my guest today in durham phoenix and fort worth and thanks to

our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember a prosthetic rules. and you. still. want. to be soo much brighter. from plans to mention these. stunts on t.v. don't come. the

flow of russian oil to some i know will triple my next year that's the total get for the leaders of both countries as they met to officially open heart of the legs of new pipeline. jewish activists say of the cadence of the humanitarian mission altie talks to members of the aid to to let see its hands by israeli forces. the side of pirates. to go official setting up a political policy even see how to pay for the net just legalize a shit before you fall share.

a very warm welcome this is on the line from moscow we have its role should the oil will be pumped directly into china by next year tripling supplies it will travel along the pipeline which has been a jury in president of the dead of a three day visit to the country and talks with the chinese leader have also you see the signing with queens to boost security in the region. is in beijing for. chinatowns have long become a permanent fixture of many metropolises but here in china you would normally find a russian district in their place sprawling all across the country their track thousands of vendors on a hunt for knockoffs this is the financial world of the engine when there was nothing here it used to be an open market with rows of counters only recently they've built everything at our expense if i may say so. but it's shamelessly low prices and high turnover areas like this one in beijing manisha transformed themselves from shanty towns in.