and economically greater popular participation and pragmatic economic policies have given this vast region a new voice in world affairs what can the world learn from latin american successes and failures. to discuss the future of latin america i'm joined by peter hachim in washington he's the president of the internet american dialogue in london we go to oscar got of the old rivera he is a senior lecturer in law at birkbeck college university of london and the author of the recent book what if latin america ruled the world and in mexico city we cross a laura carlsen director of the americas policy program for the center of international policy and another member of our crosstalk team yell on the hunger all right folks cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want i to go to you first oscar as things stand right now in latin america you have what we if we use a traditional political lexicon countries that are on the left in countries that

are on the right but given the region as a whole is there a left right continuum that is a specific latin american way of doing politics now and i'm keeping in mind the tragedies that latin america is has come over or achieved since the one nine hundred seventy s. . the answer to your question is yes absolutely has to be recognized and everybody recognizes that interesting things are happening in that in america the significance remains somewhat he didn't two things are happening first latino america has turned its back on the dogma to some of the previews dictates both right and left that is to say both you know free market fundamentalism and the far left this idea that you know just stay dirigisme and violence where the royal road towards progress. has turned

its back on those dogmatism and so there is now a left right continuum that he says specifically looked in american that combines economic pragmatism with a bottom up approach to politics grassroots are now telling their governments to be the rear guard to follow what the people want and the second thing that is happening is a massive explosion of creativity both in politics economics and in the arts as. the swedish academy recognized yesterday by giving the twenty turned nobel prize for literature to muddy water goes also laura feingold in one of the things that's really interesting i was looking at voting participation people going to the polls and really embarrassed is a lot of western countries now people do like to vote people want to be heard i

mean the participation in politics in latin america is really shames a good part of the world. that's true there's been an increase in all types of citizen participation that really explains a lot of this transition to center left governments progressive governments in the region people are voting more because they're seen an opening up of options they're seeing that there can be. at least adjustments in the kinds of near liberal politics that they were protesting against in the streets for a long time and then on the other hand side you have grassroots movements that are really pushing governments as you mentioned and are beginning to have a real impact on policy making because many of these governments that are coming in are more responsive so the indigenous rights movement that can't be seen or peasant farmer movements in fact in even in some places to a lesser degree the women's movements are now being able to assert politics make changes that are constitutional and structural and having a big impact so there's a lot more dynamism in latin american politics now than we've seen in the past

peter if i go to you in washington but there are still people that are critical of populist movements and governments and a lot in america claiming that they're there there's a high level of corruption i level of unemployment high level of inflation and things like this is that the correct word to use for these governments i'm thinking of maybe like of venezuela bolivia well. you know. it's interesting because. agreed with. to the point where there is a certain. convergence of thinking in latin america. i think it's harder to know exactly what's right watch left in latin america i also think there can be a bit of an exaggeration of the amount of. transformation that's

taken place i think there has been. a lot of progress made don't get me wrong i mean i started living in latin america in the one nine hundred sixty s. when the dictatorships were beginning to take power where the economies were really boom and bust economies and. inflation was rampant and no one seemed to care much about inequality and that's changed dramatically since then but on the other hand there stand a lot a long way to go before we could really see latin america as sort of leading the world or a latin america transformed that still a region with a very high quality very high poverty. a very sort of erratic political institutions now all this is changing and it's moving in the right direction and that gives enormous hope and optimism but i think that

a let's wait another ten fifteen years no one talked about the chinese miracle until it was going on for a dozen years i think latin america really has to sort of show it has staying power with its current economic and social directions as well as its democratic governance do you want to jump in there in reply to that. well i would like to say three things number one the present transformation of the we seen that in america has been happening for over a decade already and secondly there are already concrete examples of latin america living in the world and probably the best example of that in the seventeenth of may the club ration of the hair on we brazil together with turkey actually achieving what none of the five veto powers of the u n a c could achieve to bring. to bring you round to the back to the negotiating table and this is

a matter of principle not just as a matter of you know self-interest of politics. let us remember also that let's you know america has been refining and developing democratic institutions for over two hundred years i mean we're not really new commerce on the stage of. the relations but rather one of the all regionally you know sources of modern democracy and of course as. i said the rising like in a second you want to jump in there real quickly i had to do peter i don't know how old you are oscar but you and then watching latin america i've lived through what was once called the brazilian miracle of economics there were lots of other rooms and busts in latin america i think we just have to hope that the

current very important progress the very important influence that latin america is now have they really can be sustained in some very worrying signs if you look at take brazil. yes dave been growing very well they were very resilient against the global. prices better than almost any other country anywhere at the same time their productivity has increased in the past fifteen years and the other hand they're still one of the most unequal countries in the world in other words progress has been made but i think if one one can become a little too complacent a little bit too. sort of cocky about where this is all going to wind up i have a great faith in brazil i've written about brazil but i'm very cautious about predicting a sort of on bridal march into the future ok laura fine go to you i mean it's look

over the line it's over the last ten years i mean you know there is before we looked at these bust the booms i mean a lot of this was based on policy coming out of the i.m.f. out of western institutions don't you see over the last decades that latin america is finding its own solutions to its own economic problems not always turning to western institutions to bail them out but looking at their own internal resources. well that's exactly why i agree with us with the original statement that there is a transition that's very significant going on in latin america in order to judge it i think we can say that that's happening already because we're not just talking about whether people are doing the economy's doing better or certain times of adjustment what we're seeing is the major structural changes that can't be sustained because contrary to many of the neo liberal politics that were there

before these new structural changes actually have the backing of the majority of the people who have been excluded from the previous economic and political systems so there we have changes in the direction of creating more independence being more responsible and able to control their own national politics breaking out of us which is. very important i think a lot of these efforts that you see for latin american countries to come together in new forms of regional south south integration are a direct challenge to the u.s. determinate that they suffered from before and caused many of the politics of the neoliberal policies that grew inequality in the region to be imposed throughout there so the fact that they're standing up to challenge these policies that they're creating their own forms that they're taking on their own initiatives and that internally those processes of more state involvement in the economy where they can

create a system where natural resources and their exploitation the benefits remain within the country where there are systems to redistribute wealth there's programs for the poor that have actually lifted thousands if not millions out of poverty these are changes that have already had a direct impact on people's lives and that have already changed the geo political map in the region ok folks i would have to jump in here after a short break we'll continue our discussion on latin america stay with r.t. . if. you can. discover it to be easy. to get with the wind. and become free.

seventy years of the red machine with shall we people wanted to leave the. to make changes to society was it. wasn't possible to change the country's regime so quickly. without. on a closer look fundamental changes in the state people's minds want. to take you. live. to.

welcome back to prosecute or look out to remind you we're talking about the prospects for latin america. before let's look at the region's ties with russia the history of relations between russia and latin american countries cannot be said to have been easy but in recent years they have experienced some significant sifts most politically and economically regular meetings and diplomatic visits and those ten lives for the sons and in two thousand and six two thousand and eight trade turnover roles to sixteen billion dollars russia is also one of the region's key military supplies when the weakening of u.s. influence in latin america ties to russia may be key to the region's future back to peter all right peter i'd like to go to you and i to continue on the font that

laura brought up before the break has the united to have the grip of the united states has had on latin america is it coming to an end and it will come to a complete end relatively soon. well let me let me just go back and i'll answer that question in the course of what i say. i'm very glad to hear laura particularly so upbeat about latin america and particularly latin america's economic and social progress. because she is cheering a. economic a set of economic and social policies that are also being warmly applauded welcomed by the world bank i.m.f. and u.s. treasury this is an enormous conversion that's taken place and i must admit if really the left and. the. world bank

i.m.f. and u.s. treasury are all on the same path right now that's tremendous new news that we really do have a consensus about economic policies as far as the u.s. goes yes i think there is a. disappointment in latin america with the u.s. there is a lowered expectation from the us latin america has become more assertive it's the versified it's international policies countries like china and india are gaining a real share of of the market they're becoming. part of the the region in and i think the countries of the region are taking many more decisions into their own he n yes i think the united states is backing away somewhat i think also though with a condom ia fifteen trillion dollars which is four times the economy of all of

latin america put together u.s. markets u.s. investment u.s. technology remittances are still tremendously in poor. certainly for. mexico and central america and the caribbean and if you look at the commies of south america less important but nonetheless very very critical so yes the u.s. has a lowered political profile but it's still tremendously important economically ok i ask you if i can ask you i mean peter let me jump in. yeah i'm not sure the puter understood me i do not think that the social progress suspend being made is because there's a consensus between these countries much of the social progress that i'm referring to in business well in brazil has to do with specific social programs that are

actually not contemplated or fully supported by the world bank and other international financial institutions we will recall that there were going to go she should not try. the idea peter here a letter a letter finish a letter let her finish your point ok there are there there is some support for social programs here in mexico we have opportunity that isn't theirs but recall that what these countries did in others in other senses to get into the place where they are now are for example many of them withdrew from the realm of the i.m.f. because they were not willing to accept the kind of conditioning and the austerity of the state in particular that went along with it the policies that we're saying now even if in some cases the international financial institute support them are policies of greater intervention in the state and this has gone counter to the world bank and the financial institute's lied for many many times and yet it's

precisely this which has been able to eliminate some of the tremendous inequalities that were causing social unrest and there were causing misery throughout the continent so i think that there's been a real break with central american countries and it's the break that's. article four at the rate that they rejected the free trade area of the americas and how many of those countries rejected free trade agreements with the united states has been critical in creating more south south trade and creating fair trade relations with the when we look at the economic crisis what we see is that the country is that recovered slowest and were hardest hit were the ones that had that dependence on the u.s. market in particular mexico and colombia and these other countries were able to recuperate much better peter you want to reply to that real quickly then i want to ask are going to let me just i just you know usually are you going to go ahead you have i think you i think i think it's important to understand that rather than

a simple consensus what is happening is the latin america's economic and political practice is starting to change some of the more dogmatic views held by people in the world bank and the i.m.f. i mean the i.m.f. is still you know back to its old practice is not not only more involved in america but certainly in greece and you know the parts of europe also ease the case that. we've been seeing a potential for the convergence between the two big economies of the two sides of the american continent i mean imagine what would happen if you put together the economies of north america particularly the united states and the south of the of the rio grande you know the combined weight of these economies will give any other country with potential global hegemony

a run for their money and let us not forget to announce another theme the latin america is also changing the united states from within it is latinos in the united to the states you know marching in two thousand and six. growing out to vote in two thousand and eight and now reacting again to the sort of these scores that he's got a rising some of the fringes of the republican policy that he's you know setting a new notes and a new tone and a new destiny for the united states and these transformation mirrors really on a has said correctly the transformation that we have seen in the south grassroots movements taking the lead governments becoming real regard to the rather than rather the vanguard governments and checking very closely the sorts of policies coming out of the i.m.f. and the world bank that wrecked havoc in latin america during the eighty's and ninety's these also combined with

a more pragmatic or i say more intelligent approach to global economics and global politics is the secret for letting american rice ok i'd like to ask everyone here and ask are you preempted me a little bit and let me have a chance or not all right i mean you guys can go go ahead go ahead if you want to i mean because we say one to one the one simple statement go right ahead that that is winning i would advise laura to read the the i.m.f. report that will be released this weekend in washington really confirms it's very corresponds with very much with what you're saying they are applauding what brazil is done what chile has done what mexico has done and other words they are really sort of very much in tune with what you're saying and i think there is a convergence between what you're saying and what the world bank and the i.m.f.

are saying that's all all right i want to change the topic. i also think that ok ok all right give me reply and then i want to i want to do this immigration thing in the united states go ahead laura i don't like interrupting people go ahead. no i just want to say i don't think what brazil has done and what mexico has done for example are the same so i think there's quite a bit difference is we have one that's essentially a charity program and another but i think that basically if there is that kind of convergence and i will look forward to reading the report it would certainly be a positive side because as also mentioned before the damage that's been done by conditioning throughout our region has been devastating ok i ask around like to go to you brought up an interesting point in and i know it's in your in your new book here. by twenty thirty years from now. should americans will the majority of the population of the united states be saying to which minority learn

spanish instead of what we hear now learn english. living in many ways that is happening and has happened already i mean look at the thousand and nine winner of the pulitzer prize was of the many. with a novel that he's effectively written in the spanglish rather than only in english or spanish and this reflects the huge changes that are occurring within the united to the states now these changes are going to increase some because more and more important as demographics changes as well and well right now sixteen percent of the population of the united states is latino by twenty four to twenty fifty we were will be talking of thirty to thirty four percent of the population of the united states being a latino population with anglos in their minority and

a convergence between african americans for instance and latinos in the united to the states which by the way are the two sectors of the population was most badly hit by the current crisis will mean a different direction a different political direction are ending and i'm afraid i'm going to have the lady with the consequence to jump in here we've run out of time and i think i'm going to have to learn spanish many thanks to my guests today in washington london and mexico city and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. so you next time and remember crosstalk.

russia. which brighter if you knew about someone from funds to pressure is. for instance on t.v. dot com.

tonight's a vintage drive into the future the governor hits moscow to size up some high tech investment in russia's silicon valley reports. also five parties vying for power as result showed no clear winner in critical stands historic elections which have been called free and fair by international observers but the opposition claims intimidation of vote rigging. and love for an adopted child should be color blind but in the united states many black children can't find new homes because white parents shop.

this is r t it's a peer monday evening here right now thanks for being with us i'm kevin owen with the top story and he's tweeted with the president being caught in the crush of the metro russia and wrote a retro song all in one day. seems to be enjoying your stay in the russian capital to be to preventive welcome the california governor and the u.s. high tech executives who are in the country to look at russia's silicon valley with a view to investing. in thomas reports now sports naked kept a promise he once made back in june of this year dmitri medvedev went to silicon valley in california to visit places like twitter and. silicon valley to basically look at how they do business down there that time the governor said to the president i promise i will be back to moscow that is and he has kept up on my promise in fact it has been a very busy day specifically today the two men started off which is the.