hello and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle watch what you say for some political correctness is understood is a form of etiquette for others it is a clumsy attempt at thought control is political correctness a necessary evil. and you can. discuss the controversy surrounding political correctness i'm joined by robert shibley in raleigh he is the senior vice president of the foundation for individual rights in education in london we have robert sharpe campaign manager at english pan and in greensboro we cross lenore billings harris chief diversity strategist at excel development systems and author of the diversity advantage a guide to making diversity work and another member of our cross talk team and the hunger all right folks crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want

a first thought i had to go to robert in raleigh i was looking at some of your case studies that do deal with political correctness in your opinion what does it mean going too far in political correctness because as i was researching this program i typed in that political correctness going to far very high correlation is it going too far. i think it is going too far especially where we called straight which is on college and university campuses in the united states political correctness has sort of a choke hold on the way universities believe students should talk and think and behave and we've seen that over and over in the ten years or so that the fire has been in operation you know one time after another we see problems it's especially problematic for people who are religious students for people in the united states who are conservative students who have real trouble when they are expressing their beliefs and are told that you know their beliefs are really acceptable for the campus so i think it goes too far when it tells people when they what they can and

cannot say and in some cases it will even tell people what they can and cannot think ok when or how about you is political correctness gone too far because this is what we hear right now there seems to be it seems to be the fad right now because of the economic crisis and whatnot watching glenn beck's. mall presentation and i was looking at some of the people that were being interviewed and saying you know i can't say what i want to say anymore it's politically correct they can't say anything i don't know what they want to say but what has political correctness gone too far. i believe that it has gone too far in that people have dismissed their common sense i believe that in order for all of us to get along more effectively we need to be sensitive to other people's views but that certainly does not mean that political correctness says that you can't have certain thoughts that's where i think people take it too far in the u.s.

for instance there's a big brouhaha about you can't say merry christmas to anyone while if i know they're christian then i would say merry christmas if i don't know what their religion is or if they have a religion then i might not say anything at all or i might say happy holidays that to me is simply being respectful it's not prohibiting people from their thoughts because in my opinion career political correctness and really more importantly moving toward valuing differences means that intention is not enough it's the result so if you actually want to get along with folks and you want to interact and be innovative etc etc then you certainly need to be respectful of their beliefs and their customs and that type of thing that doesn't mean you can't be respectful of your own ok reverend i go to you in london i mean is it just about educating and just being sensitive and i agree the result is very important here but didn't much this brouhaha about i think we've all learned that in the last twenty five thirty

years there are certain things you probably shouldn't say in public in some places you can't say it like on television or in some places on radio i mean well again has it gone too far what has gone too far because i think we've gotten used to living in a in a politically correct environment and i would say most of us would reasonable people would say a good deal of it is quite reasonable. absolutely i think we have to divide define our terms to begin with in many parts of the world political correctness is the state also orthodoxy states actually have laws against denigrating the state or defaming the president and they come under the. remit of political correctness as well and you know that that's a bar and it's something we should all campaign against it's a violation of free expression in in the west. here in the u.k. and i think in the usa as well political correctness means something different and

i'm very wary about when we say well the difference between the word should and the word current when you say or you can't say happy holidays or you can't say merry christmas that's a different kind of can't from you can't be rude about the president in or indeed in russia so you need to define you can say whatever you want about vladimir putin i think really in the west people really overate much people think about politics in this country go to the blogosphere you can see all that you want ok and i'm attacked all the time or even working here so really you know overrated but it yeah i agree with you there are many states in the world where you can't criticize the head of state that i'm not living in when was that and that's often very cause that's called political correctness in most countries and people use the language of offense and the language of political correctness to legitimize something that it's actually very unpleasant but turning to the u.k.

example in the american example yeah a lot of it is to do with politeness it's to do with being taken seriously and it is to do with political speech so down the pub or you know in a bar in your house you can say what you want and there's no sense that anyone's going to come around to your house the thought police are going to stop you from having a private conversation but when you're in the public. you know if you're on television or if you're running for office or if you wield political power as a lot of media types do in the usa and in the u.k. . you do need to watch what you say purely because you want to be taken seriously frankly you don't want to you don't want your viewers to switch off if i go back to you robert here's an. go right ahead go ahead. yeah i think believe another aspect of it is there are some there are some people in the media who intend to be provocative and so they will say things that they know are not quote unquote

politically correct in order that they can get a reaction however in the real world let's say when people are really interacting with one another not specifically trying to get a reaction from people but they're trying to learn how to get along then if i for instance know that certain words are going to be red flags for you then if i really want to get along with you then i'm not going to use those words at the same time and this is been brought up in directly in the in the western world free speech is critical to our values and our beliefs when i travel other places in fact i was in russia about fifteen years ago at that time i was very very sensitive to what i would say to the various groups with whom i talked i felt it was my obligation to find out something about the russian culture so that i would say things correctly some things as simple as do i say moscow or moscow because i think that shows my sensitivity to the people to whom i'm speaking ok robert if i can go to

you i don't think anybody is going to go to you anyway. i don't think anybody would argue that politeness isn't a good thing it sounds to me like what most of us agree on all three of us agree on is that politeness and sensitivity is good it's a moral good i think we're it crosses the line into what you would call political correctness is when there is some sort of coercive power behind it whether it be the power of the state in some countries the power of the state believe it or not on college and university campuses in the united states because they are state agencies and sometimes they use those powers of the state to enforce this pull it what you would call political correctness i think that's where really crosses the line and you know that it's very difficult and i think it's telling that you know this show none of us really are are standing up for the power of the state to be able to tell you what you can say and what you think and i'm really glad to see that i think most people really there just isn't there isn't something they think

is acceptable ok if i could one thing i will say is that. one reason why we're so obsessed with the language of politicians is because they do have a bully pulpit they do set examples. the way they speak because we think that they are in somehow representative of the state you know we are we obsessed with the way sarah palin or barack obama or in the usa david cameron here in the u.k. we're obsessed with how they speak and we obsess with them using this inclusive language of political correctness because the very act of them speaking even in a private situation gets broadcast around the world there's a profound effect on the listeners and also set sometimes a very bad example for other citizens in the country so. it's interesting i mean you go back to it by the said about obama that what was it

he's articulate in all there was just big frenzy around him you know articulate right. and a big frenzy i mean why do you know seems to me that that really is overdoing it or the you know putting lipstick on a pig and all that's so insulting to sarah palin you know but that is an easy amount they're ok and then people just run with it is i think it says. you know what he really means what you know that's what i don't like you so they say but read this is what it means they tell you what it means and maybe it was meant something completely ignored. what happens is with politicians they say something and then they have to have all of their their sound bite masters come out and say this is what they really mean even with an example such as people saying obama is articulate where the reality is we should expect any president would be articulate however. we're doing. ok actually that's my point is we had we had eight years of

a president who wasn't very articulate and i'm not being judgmental i'm just happens to be that as a better speaker than bush was so it would be natural for someone to say obama is articulate but in the us the background of that is that so often when a black person does know how to speak any black person not just. the president but if a black person knows how to speak when people are shocked by it oh aren't they articulate whereas if it was a white person they would be expecting them to be articulate anyway so i agree with you that that takes it too far and i also think that when people decide to label others as racist simply because a term that they use once in their entire life that's also taking it too far i think people take it out of proportion they they forget common sense ok after a short break we'll continue our discussion on political correctness and its implications on free speech stay with our.

most seventy years of the red machine which so we had people wanted to leave in the past. looking to make changes the society was immediate. but it wasn't possible to change the whole country's regime so quickly and without hard. won a close only fundamental changes in the state clinton people's minds on origins. the close up team has been to the cycling region where the biggest russian salmon

caviar processing factory is located now for r g goes to northern paradise where many still live off the land. new laser beam found to fight economic turmoil . and learn the show's first free elections retro. thousand years ago. welcome to the odd region russia close up. to fifty. six pts. welcome back to cross talk i'm bitterly about to remind you we're discussing a political correctness has gone too far. but before let's see what russians think about this issue. it's language i.d.'s

policies and behavior that seeks to minimize offense as so-called white elephant in the room i'm referring of course to political correctness many claim p.c. serves to undermine freedom of speech as worth and phrases considered political offensive deleted or would the russian public opinion research center asked if the country's media may freely express their opinion seven to six percent of the respondents thought russia's mass media position of freedom of speech and other seventeen percent believe they are not entirely pre this said many russians believe that some censorship in mass media is also necessary. ok when or if i go back to you i mean researching this program i kept coming across comments without specifics and that's kind of bothered me political correctness shuts down real political

discussions is that true or is that just someone saying that they don't agree with certain trends that are going on in society because shuts down discussion they don't give a lot of examples what that is could you can you elaborate on that yeah. i would disagree that it shuts down discussion i believe that when people truly are thought leaders and they really want to share their thoughts and opinions once they have thought about what it is they're going to say they don't have to be handcuffed by political correctness they can learn how to say what they need without having to denigrate other groups or religions and that type of thing again when they want to be provocative that's when they might use certain terminology when it comes to politics in particular every group of people that is ever been oppressed the first step in that oppression is to take away free speech and to take away education when people get information then they no longer can be held down and we're seeing that.

happen in the world today with twitter and facebook and all the ways people can communicate whether the government wants them to or not ok to go back to raleigh you guys want to jump in here the one i was just going to i was just going to say go ahead robert in line and go ahead. thank you very much we are far too polite here maybe. both of the right to offend has to be. a weapon in political discourse it's a fantastic way to rattle the cage is of political leaders who have a lot of power so. i'm very wary of any. suggestion you an example can you give an example can you give an example of that ok. all right go ahead robert on the other side of the ocean there go ahead i mean being politically correct correct and provocative at the same time without being

overly holy. yeah just same time i mean you're saying like you're saying i do. certain cases where it's ok to be politically incorrect to make a point. i think there are certain cases i think immediately you could say was that there i'm sorry robert in london because i started there then we'll go back to you robert go ahead thanks no i was just saying i mean you know south park spitting image in the u.k. i believe there was a program in russia as well i think it's called quickly with puppets vladimir putin and the mohammed cartoons at the very extreme end where people were trying to make a point through being offensive now the crucial thing is that it can't be the state it can't be a law that prohibits that offense and this is why i think political correctness comes in because it's a social sanction that has no legal backing to it. nevertheless oil the

wheels of political discourse we have the great thing about political correctness and why i'm a fan of it. and circumstances is that it's a. more malleable substitute for formal state censorship interest in what robert in the go ahead and rally. the prototypical example of of political correctness that are anti anti correctness being used to take down a political type figure in the united states is it's actually a very famous supreme court case called hustler versus falwell and that was where the magazine hustler magazine which is a pornographic magazine in the us ran a parody ad of jerry falwell. basically stating that he had lost his virginity to his mother in an outhouse you know and that was found by the u.s. supreme court to be protected a kind of parody and you know it's extremely politically incorrect you know there's

really no way i mean it's not polite at all it's completely insensitive but what the court recognized was that sometimes speech that offends is very important because it communicates sort of a strength of belief in what you're saying and it can be part of the message that offense can be part of the message so i think while you know i think politeness is in general a good thing there are some groups you don't want to be polite to the ku klux klan a great example you know there's really no reason to be polite to a group like that and showing a passion showing outrage maybe saying things that are very nice or sensitive is a very necessary part of a discourse for many people and you know to the extent i agree with robert in the u.k. he's saying that it can't be the state and i think having the state regulate political correctness is by far the very worst option but i think there are some receive into the social sanction that said the social sanction the fact that there is a social sanction to saying things that are offensive to saying things that are

insensitive is what makes it possible not to have the state regulate it so we sort of a draw a line there i do think that we tend to i think in the u.s. we have tended to make you know a lot of mountains out of molehills you brought of the biden and palin you know comments about them and i think that's a great example where is it really helping the national discourse when you can say . well you can't call somebody articulate because of the color of their skin because you can you know use various phrases and you know not to single them out this happens to pretty much every politician george allen in virginia about the word macaca you know so there's really you know it does in poverty discourse to some extent so i think we do need to be aware of that what about you what do you think about george allen is. he just lost his seat he wasn't. he wasn't put in prison he wasn't stopped from publishing anything he lost his seat because frankly he was a media. one of the things is when.

or others were yes i think one of the things that happens particularly when it's politicians that that make these phone pas is that it helps the electorate understand where they're coming from it helps the electorate realize that this is a person that is not very aware when they're using. certain terms and they were there was a talk show host who who decided to step down after she used the n word several times in today's day and age it in the united states you just don't use that word period so for her to have thought oh people were not allowing her to have free speech so she had to quit her show in order to have free speech says to me that she wasn't being very sensitive and when i say sensitive i don't mean that you have to be so nice and what you're saying that you can't get your point across that because that is a problem that people become so nice to have is that what the heck are they saying really but they should be able to know how to say well that being totally offensive

. when you just don't side of the. that's all i did i just want to add it's a little thing real fast the downside of creating magic words you know sort of called quote unquote magic words like the n word in the united states which is a word that you should avoid you know that i'm not saying it now is that you can again you can get to the poor your impoverishing discourse there's a famous book by randall kennedy that it has that the n. word is the title it's called the subtitles like the history of this word and there are some universities and high schools and libraries that won't carry the book because it has that word on it you know it's really it's not helpful. you know exactly but i'm going to let you go down the road and it's very interesting because i had a professor a great professor of american history and he did use that word in one of his essays how many did karl marx know ok and he was looking at race and he was looking at

different social structures and things like that and he was a he's an african-american and i read it and i said do you really want to put that in there and he said yeah it makes my point i we talked to earlier before the program robert in london what about the use of the word in the in group can african-americans africans in general use that word among themselves and not be very. very interesting formulation because that is the f. word to refer to homosexuals there's the. two pakistanis and asians. is. the formulation is the generally if you was the original target of the derogatory phrase then really you can't be the one to claim it back i got very impatient with always white middle class heterosexual men complaining they can't use always derogatory words when the rap on the n.w.a. album is using every. every other word there are different dialects over. english

and black english is a very different dialect from what we're conversing in now with different norms so it's not really for for those of us in positions of traditional power i either white guy. to try and reclaim the words that are our ancestors used to oppress other people. alone or said it's for those who are oppressed to to reclaim those words and maybe give themselves. a new name you know we think of mumbai or. you change the name of the city depending on what you want to say politically ok and i want to give you a last last word every second thirty seconds yet then that certainly is what happens with african-americans we prefer to be called most people refer to be called african americans that one other thought for people to think of is when tina

you just say is that to say that's not appropriate they do understand a better way to say all right many thanks to my guest today in raleigh greensboro and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cross talk to us. if you want. more news today violence is once again flared up. these are the images the world is seeing from the streets of canada. operations are old today.

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bulletin in twenty minutes time. around the clock welcome all top story now the leaders of russia and venezuela are all getting together as they focus on a raft of closer ties ranging from nuclear power to military development it will round off hugo chavez a visit to the country well let's get more from our correspondents now. what do we expect to happen next. president. chavez saying all to which they will then something to say quote a plan of action which makes the foundation for bilateral cooperation in the number of species into the twenty four.