some are will be. others take your execution or. longing for just. those so many years of. memory. as well. as country. in indonesia is available in hotels. resorts in. the mode of being turned. on sunday of the choto the wisdom

result you should do. the. ground as you call it the hotel pool seasons hotel the sultan who took. a back to watching r.t. live from moscow reminder of the top stories extradited russian businessman victor would accuse his washington of trying to force his confession he denies all charges including conspiracy to kill americans and supplying arms to terrorist groups. security on the line the white house values to do whatever it takes to seal the arms reduction treaty between russia and us as more republicans push to postpone its ratification. and rising tension roma gypsies say they're being cast in claiming european countries are using the fight against crime as an excuse to target them. up next i'll get off talk show spotlight today he and his gas look

back at the nuremberg trials and assess how they affected the investigation of modern crimes. for the full stop we've got. the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers. hello again then welcome to spotlight they enter the show on r.t.

i'm going off and today my guest is sirius grommets and mr ruins a world war two legal precedent emerged with the aim of prosecuting those responsible for genocide a special international court consisting of judges from the victorious countries was created to put those defeated on trial the formula was deemed successful and still exists but what has changed and vesta gating the dreadful crimes today let's ask roberts the prosecutor of the international court for former yugoslavia. the trial was the world's response to nazi atrocities created sixty five years ago the first international tribunal set standards and precedents still adhere to today despite mr churchill's calls to execute the nazi leaders without trying them on and insisted on a legal process since then crimes and genocide are subjects dealt with by specially

convened international tribunals the latest examples of the international criminal tribunal for rwanda and the international criminal. tribunal for the former yugoslavia. who is the brother of welcome to the show thank you thank you very much for being with us where we. spotlight well. first of all i want you to comment about the the day the sixty fifth anniversary of nuremberg what so important to remember about the nuremberg trial today when thirty years why is it important you know the nuremberg tribunal was the first of its kind it was the first international tribunal on route electoral tribunal dealing with important crimes international crimes like crimes against peace war crimes crimes against humanity so it is worth the first one and has played

a very important role in the creation in preparation of other tribunals like the international tribunal for the four hundred or even the the i.c.c. international criminal court. their idea of trying not to leaders has been discussed by the allies even before the second world war was over to choose well installing spoke about it in tehran in one nine hundred forty three at first the british prime minister insisted on exit q deleted nazis without a trial a tool to germany's defeat this three major war powers agree don't do fool much of a trial to those responsible for war crimes france was made part of the tribunals nuremberg was chosen as the location for the trial which was symbolic as the city was considered the ceremonial birthplace of the nazi party there was actually a series of trials the first one and the best known was the trial of the twenty four major war criminals deputy fewer and he was appointed successor herman gehring

been the major defendant the nazi leaders were indicted with crimes against peace war crimes and crimes against humanity most. it needed to the crimes looked clean. as a result of the trial twelve defendants whose directed movement in the killing was proven was sentenced to death by hanging. well i understand why it is remembered and studied. by lawyers by politicians but for ordinary people do you think it's important to know about it to remember that should we should we teach a school i mean generally at least for sure i mean the number is about extreme crimes committed during the second world war and it was the first time that in fact the individual criminal responsibility worse in an international text it was for

the first time that in fact being a state representative was not preventing you from being prosecuted so the state of the number tribunal certified that being a head of state would not prevent them from prosecution i think it was a very important signal that the international community cares about its citizens especially also in relation to the crimes against humanity which are committed against civilians well some historians claim that the nuremberg trials. really were the vector of justice as they call it yeah and some people doubt its legality one of the reasons to believe that the nuremberg tribunal really was in fact a triumph of justice. you know the opinions of course different on the context in which tribunal has been created and the way it has worked. personally i think that it was. a very interesting implementation of international

justice. i think international observers agree to say that perhaps not everything was perfect by. it was justice it was an important trial it was a trial where the rights of defense were also respected i would say what would have been the alternative what would have seen the situation if there was no tribunal would it have been vengeance would it have been execution so it is clear and it's also easy today to say it's far from perfect but i think it played a very very important role after the word war world war in india with those crimes well of course the guys behind the bombers in nuremberg were the bad guys everybody knows about that but it was well for you as personally do you feel that it was today when we do remember it today was it about the good and the bad the good guys and the bad guys or was it about justice what was more important for you.

i think it was about the part justice it was about individual criminal responsibility showing that in fact a war is not conducted by countries but but by individuals to give really a face to the crimes which have been committed so i think it was about justice and you know the entire legal world knows all the evidence which has been presented in court we all know that it was very largely documented the crimes which have been committed so and you know there has been. different kind of sentences there have been acquittals too so i think this shows that that it was justice and that the principle of law played an important role speaking about the principles of law i read that the principle the main principle the presumption of innocence was has been a very. can you confirm that. do you believe it was the accused.

defense lawyers who are making their points to have been witnesses heard for the prosecution but also witnesses for the for the defense the defense had large access to to the documentations of course it's far from being perfect you know and i also know the publications on the number of trials you know having no possibility to appeal a decision only having partial access to the file by the defense lawyers would have been a number of shortcomings some for sure not saying that it was perfect but we have to put ourselves in this situation in the context after the second world war and somebody had to deal with the crimes committed and i think that with all the justified criticism which is which is regularly put forward it was justice and it was for sure a better option than vengeance by the victims or or the leaders of the war absolutely this is another another question connected with the with the second

world war. the holocaust the holocaust deniers do you support the prosecution and putting on trial people who deny the holocaust do you think this this is the right thing to do sixty five years off to prosecute somebody who has his own opinion on history. you know it's a tricky question and it's really up to encounter it's in their parliaments to decide. how they want to deal with the issue for me the most important question is to really inform generations of citizens about what happened i also found it. of course awful if people today are denying but you know it's happening even today with our tribunals tool you know the genocide ensure that

it's there are. officials in the public were saying we will never recognize that genocide has been committed despite decisions coming out of the i.c.u. and i c j so i think it's mainly or much more a question of education education informing your people about what happened then about new legislation and there i think the nuremberg tribunal as all tribunals has benefits that they establish a very important database of documentation which clearly establish what happened during those wars. you mentioned. you yourself today what the legacy of the nuremberg trial in general for today's existing. law. as i said the number tribunal was the first one between forty five and the ninety's nothing happened really in terms of development of international justice and in ninety three and ninety four with the creation of

the talk tribunals for the former guest love you and run that we really entered a new a new step into into this regard and when the alter of the city why establish the state of course they were inspired by the numeric state to it in relation to crimes against humanity in relation to war crimes of course and of course some additional. crimes were added like a genocide but also in the jurisprudence during the seventeen years of life time of the tribunal in a number of cases the judges have referred to the to the nuremberg jurisprudence in relation to individual criminal responsibility in relation to perpetration so it has played a very important role of course the citywide coming fifty years later and

being established by the unite. nation's tried to address some of those those criticisms for example the possibility to appeal in certain circumstances. the possibility of having a larger access for the defense to the case and obliging the prosecutor to disclose all old material so the defense remembering your day many people keep asking questions like what should we do not to let. things for which leaders were tried happened again say for example should extremists be punished for their ideas for their intentions which are proved in a court. rather than waiting until they commit something awful like genocide like acts against humanity can can we do that can we at least discuss this matter. i think that every every everything must be discussed no limits to discussion of

course we have to be be careful i am not in favor of having. of anything i think discussion must be possible different opinions must be possible . but. of course you can only start prosecuting somebody if he is crossing the line entering the field of criminal law and there is up to come to determine what kind of hate speech is prohibited if the denial of genocide is a crime under national law but it's really up to two individual countries and societies to the site are starting to us in the spotlight we will continue this in less than a minute we'll take a short break now stay with us don't go away. you

know so many years of. silly song the prisoners. are still a lot. as well this is for sure. though so many years of. summer helping. others take your executioners longing for justice. and so many years of just. memory is still a man. as well as the school gate. are you. comfortable. just. sitting. here.

welcome back to spotlight i'm elder and often just a reminder that my guest today here is service bombers the prosecutor at the international criminal tribunal for former yugoslavia. welcome once again to the show well speaking about your tribunals for me the. sticks here are saying that among the accused by the i c t y there are thirty three it's nine

bosnian muslims six costs of a obey the ins and one hundred two thirds. do these figures mean that the i c t y is boris against serbs which you're accused by many journalists. certainly not the tribunal has objective to prosecute those who mean responsibility for crimes committed during the different war in the former yugoslavia as you know there has been a war in which. in bosnia kosovo and the tribunal over a number of years had collected facts in relation to ation those crimes and the trials which are in place before the judges are reflecting the information which has been collected by by my predecessors investigators and which have been resulted in in total hundred sixty one indictments where still seven trials on going with fourteen

if you so the work is not not yet over i would you want to stress in this regard that this tribunal is not served it's not going to court it's not it's about individuals it's about individual criminal sponsibility is about persons who are charged with the worst crimes one can imagine genocide crimes against humanity and war crimes so it's really not at all about populations or countries it's really about individuals you mentioned your predecessors your predecessor. a real star of the national prosecution she wrote a book and in her book she accused the albanian rebels and cost of the. grave crimes crimes against the ethnic serbs including illegal trading of human organs well i would ask you have you heard of any any investigations based on the facts mentioned by a car with her book i mean i've not read the book and i'm also not in

a position to comment on the book but of course i'm aware of the facts. facts which had also be partially documented in very fight by my by my office and those informations have been shared with the with the seven authorities where the seven workouts prosecutor today is in charge of this investigation. now a quote from yourself on september twentieth day you said i quote i am not satisfied with serbia's corp in finding and arresting that cold blood each and hog and that the government in belgrade must do more and that's that these were your words quote it has something changed since then what are the chances that these guys will be will be arrested in india. what i have said in fact that what i've written in the last report to security council is that cooperation is mainly

to scope aeration with serbia is in relation to our ongoing cases is in relation to witness protection its relation to access to documents where i've said over the last two years that it's very much business as usual where we have a really good interaction with our counterparts where have been indeed more critical in the last weeks and last month in relation to the fugitives where we have said that. if after several years now of activities of operations there are no results yet that it's very important to to review the investigative strategy that is important to put more resources on the search yes i've said that serbia can do more needs to do more and i also got the insurances after our last security council report by zero seven counterparts that our code imitations were taken very seriously so i know that several authorities are currently working on this recommendations i've seen in the last days a number of operations have been conducted in serbia in this regard and i very much

looking forward to my meetings with the intelligence and police services of the war crimes. prosecutor but also the political responsible next week in belgrade. tribunal is. supposed to complete all the hearings in mid two thousand and eleven. and by two thousand and thirteen all the appeals should be stopped here well this will be it does that mean that the hunt for the fugitive that we're talking about for laddish and hard is the former serb leader in croatia will be stopped next year and that if needed find them that's it. no i'm your talk to mystic about the final dates for the tribunal we will have twice on going until two thousand and twelve and. perhaps even until two thousand and thirteen with appeals going to two thousand and fourteen. it is indeed

a problem for us the hunt for the for the fugitives and we have said and repeated many times that the only good and acceptable solution is to have the two remaining fugitives arrested during the current lifetime of the tribunal this is today our number one priority and this is what is expected from from victims in vienna. of course there is to interview the possibility that they are not arrested before the closure of the tribunal for this case the security council is currently working on the so-called residual mechanism to take over the remaining functions from my city wide and this was it will make an ism will have one of its component a tribunal component but only to be activated if in the future one of the fifty is arrested and we strongly believe that the signal which is given also by the security council is very very important it means that whenever and wherever the

fugitives are arrested there will be an international trial they cannot sit out justice and finally justice will be done. whenever. they are arrested they will they will never feel safe. until they are learned is that true wherever they are whenever it happens where whenever some officer sees them they will be arrested is that true that's a decision to be taken with security council but it is going in this direction and you know. speaking about the the two fugitives we are looking for and assure authorities are looking for but you know the none arrest of those would be we also the works of the worst signal for other tribunals you know that there are other tribunals looking for a number of fugitives and not arresting today really give the wrong signal and which has a negative impact on international justice for the victims of. course for the victims you know has been. for the first time in my life as i'm concerned earlier

this year. and you know spend one day with we survivors and they told me about their stories about the lost of their loved ones and when i ask him what is your priority or what are you expecting the response from everybody was to say we want to see these arrested we want him to face justice we have always said that the best solution would have been to being together before before the judges two of the judges judging about their responsibility together unfortunately for the reasons you know this is not happening but we still. are very hardly pushing the people in the region our interlocutors in the region but also the international community also send it on many occasions the support by the european union to support the russia for the us is very very important so the international community all those who can have an impact of this in the regions also we have to

support our work what can you say as a lawyer about the quality of the judiciary and the former yugoslav countries are they capable of bringing justice themselves without going. there has been a very positive development in the last years you know in the early days when the tribunal was established there were almost no interaction with the judiciary between the tribe and the judiciary the cooperation between the hague and countries in the region was very vertical the u.n. tribunal was almost a kind of imposing corporation since two thousand and four this changed one of the reasons being that the security council has asked the tribunal to send all middle and lower ranking cases to the region but also those countries having new governments more modern governments with with new legislations and also with the

creation in the three counties of specialized war crimes prosecution offices or or specialized chambers and one development in this regard to be considered as a positive since last year we have integrated our office in the hague prosecutor one from belgrade one from. and one from there working together with my colleagues in the hague because we want to give a message it's not about the international community against some countries in the in the region it's for sure not being. it's about individual claimed responsibility and we prosecutors from the region and prosecutors prosecutors in my office we are all exactly the same objective making sure that those who have committed to crimes are punished thank you thank you very much for being with us then just to remind you that my guest spotlight today was serious grammars the prosecutor at the

tribunals performer in the slammer and that's it for now from all of us here if you have a sales spotlight or if you have someone in mind you want me to interview tomorrow drop me a line that algorithm at. let's give a shout interactive we'll be back with more until then stay and take care.