you know it's the hour ahead in the russian capital the headlines for you now a new russian ad campaign tends to horrifying images of substance abuse to battle the country's addiction problem deformed unborn babies children do it it's just some of the shocking scenes to get the message across. incumbent prime minister claims of victory and calls of his first on a mention planet since it can mean that from independence will soon be a three years ago but unprecedented poverty corruption and ethnic strife unpaid

leave of the body. and american activists accuse the us of hypocrisy as washington demands the piece of it's a coup prisoners abroad but he sits up on the concrete a minute. death of those three decades many say he's innocent. now with a financial crisis and gripping the e.u. people develop his guests debate when the union is doing and that's in a fiery titian of crosstalk don't go away. well to. remind you the latest in science and technology from around russia. we've got the future covered. and you can.

follow in welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle european union leaders need to consider what is called a minor change to the lisbon treaty that minor changes a guaranteed financial bailout of weaker members is this legitimizing moral hazard and is that even democratic. can. discuss the e.u. in the lisbon treaty i'm joined by stephan unique in stockholm he's director of corporate relations at the center for european policy studies in london we go to robert oulds he's director of the bruges group and in amsterdam we crossed the harry von ball now he is a dutch socialist party member of parliament and another member of our cross talk team the hunger all right gentlemen crosstalk grows in effect you have differences of opinion here so i wanted to be shown first of all i'd like to go to harry when

the when the lisbon treaty was being sold peddled to the europeans if i remember correctly the one of the selling points was that they would never be bailouts of member countries that that's what how they watered it down saying look this is we're never going to go that far you know where you know we're not going to violate the sovereignty of other countries when i certainly pay for people to make mistakes it is my memory failing me because i remember that that was a selling point i know that that was one of the aspects i was brought into the discussion. because of course it is a bit the wrong way that the european union and the monetary union has developed. of course you cannot have. a. single currency if you do not have a political union and we're facing the problems that have to be have to be dealt with concerning the. stephan what about you i mean do you support this the new clause being brought into the treaty don't you i think it's very important for us

to say that the reason why we have a list when treaties to make it more efficient in decision making and more democratic and i think that is absolutely what has happened since it has been no one in the in power since exactly one year it was the first of december last year that it came into power so i think that is something which is very important to deal with robert what do you think of it and of course then of our i think that was one of the most ridiculous comments i've ever heard to argue that the lisbon treaty which was brought in without having a referendum in many of the countries which were promised referendums especially in great britain france also when the irish rejected the lisbon treaty and had to vote again to argue the lisbon treaty makes the e.u. more democratic and accountable is put to us that is absurd argument that is absolutely bizarre and totally fine i think as only as a very dangerous. step and go ahead you want to it is easily defeated how can the

european union really argue that it's democratic stephanie go ahead. first the recent went to it for the least don't treat the words that you wanted to make more efficient when it comes to decision making more than you used to say was going to power to the elite international and i can i go to a new nation stone fan continue continue your point go ahead it's very it's very difficult to argue when there's somebody who interrupts or go ahead steph and you continue this country once again the research i reserve for the earliest going treaty was to make a more efficient and more democratic in relation to the enlarged european union up to twenty seven member states that are losing a look at right long term plan to centralize power harry what do you think about that i mean i want to talk about this bailout clause in this program but we've heard is the e.u. now more efficient and democratic. well first of all we have we have to do to bring the issue of sovereignty into the debate and i agree that the sovereignty is at

stake because jus to the lisbon treaty powers are moving away from the member states to war it's the centralized european state it's not supposed to be called the state anymore because we don't call it the constitution anymore but it has effectively taken away veto powers from the member states and thereby making brussels stronger more democratic in the sense that european parliament has more power but if this power is taken away from the member states especially from the smaller member states then there is a democratic loss in my opinion now when it comes to dealing with harry the we countries when it comes to bailing out the we countries we are faced by the fact that we have weaker countries in this common economy we have to help them in order to save the euro but as it looks today it might be the case that we cannot save the

euro eventually and therefore we are now helping weak economies. by pouring in money from taxpayers and all the area i mean here the euro is the problem the euro is the problem that is one of the key things which is made these other economies absolute all in portugal this isn't this is a noisy this is the point here and this is the point i want to get stephen and i to go do you think i think that steph and i don't really you realize go ahead go ahead i think it would be i think it would be nice if we talk about what is really happening first one issue is that the european parliament has become much more important in the lisbon treated in previously european parliament is an elected parliament which we have to remember secondly the national parliaments have much more influence than there than they have previously so that's also a democratic process that has developed another issue which has also developed is that you can collect one million signatures if you. i would like to change something that did not exist previously as i find this more democratic and it's

also efficient in the decision making because in certain areas you have a qualified majority voting like you all of us have very qualified things you are on your high doing accounting and a little less hairy go ahead you are leaving you are leaving out the loss of veto rights fee to arise are important instruments in the hands of smaller countries such as another and belgium and many other countries also sweden fita rights are important if you want to block i think this is a wrong because you don't do you are not telling the truth because in certain areas you still have to have a sort of consensus on the decision making that's foreign policy defense yes and you'll have it and so you agree silly small amounts of areas in a democracy can only exist in the united states let's k. foundation that you think i was insulted in the morning document gentlemanlike i agree let's go back to the euro here because that that's how our as our point of reference here i mean moral hazard is certainly in play here and this is a slippery slope and this is what may destroy the euro itself where's the fiscal

responsibility in this treaty ok it's a it's a monetary union but there's no fiscal responsibility so you can just go down the path of just wrecking your economy and well let's say it's a gentleman the germans bail you out how do you feel about that harry did i mean it did this this is not the way you can run an economy no one no household can run their way and no independent state can run that way that is true and therefore this crisis is being abused by those in favor of a federal europe to take steps towards the united states of europe we never wanted years ago it was promised that we would not create a european state by accepting the lisbon treaty we now see that through the back door they are trying to make this this european project which is innocence an economic project not of the. on a trip project into a european state that's not i mean we run. on a project it's very early on

a single issue. standing out is that it was a mistake joining the cast the popular many colleagues are assuming. this is the staff it was our contribution and let's go to stockholm go ahead we talk some of you i don't know what exactly we're all supposed to sell that you talk about fiscal issues and taxation is a domestic issue which you have to remember you have to have a consensus on that if you have that is no you are you e.u. has influence on taxation. it really is countries to have higher corporation tax it controls it all in direct taxation in quotes can increase in amount of peaceniks taxation so to argue that taxation is solely the c.e.o. these daily lives no. home is exactly their own it's absolute and i think i'm on the. television on the treasure island holiday here in korea.

let's get you on your planet to be cooked in order to be core struck there i think it's better one is again one is ruled by what is happening instead of by emotions and i think you are very emotional about your say i try to stick to what the fact is. i am not absolute you are absolutely bloody recognize this is all humans are always in direct sensation that you are going to do you a fair deal don't know how much function you don't know how it functions and i think you are. here in v.a. to the european more to north korean monetary union is a political project you have to remember that. harry do you want to jump in here in a letter here a chance we hear a johnny b. in a make sense harris jumping we are now in the middle of a debate of creating more instruments for the for the european commission to introduce european taxes there are examples on the table we are now in the in the debate of creating sanctions the european commission wants more instruments to get involved in the national economies sanctions where. economies and governments do

not follow the european rules so we are right in the middle of a debate that we never intended to harm and we should have never answered it actually is the enemy so it is there for monetary union without a political union. visionaries only involves understanding only follow a political union and now we're trying to to to to to to get a political union accepted because we are facing problems with the monetary union that's that's reality it's no leisure unit cohesion it's nearly there as well into what union the whole what you have it is wrong when your heart and your you want to your union is wrong european go ahead laugh and go ahead go ahead ok when we when the european monetary union was started there was a stability pact connected to the problem when that was that the commission never was tough enough with those canvas who never followed the rules now in the lispund treaty if you understand what the lisbon treaty is the commission has got slightly

increased possibility to go back and overview what countries are doing on the economic side so we in the future hopefully will not have lots of. complicated developments on the economic side and that is that the service delivery when we look at the situation in many of our economies we see that the national debts are far greater than is accepted in the stability and growth pact that we see that but i mean that's such a death that is also far greater than the soldiers who accepted. and i think that's also something which is just relating to the way the country in question if i'm happened to be now install code which is probably together would feel numb to best drama. when it comes to know. there are no never no deficits and of course it's a domestic case you have to all right gentlemen jump in here we're going to have a short break after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the lisbon treaty stay with r.t.

. and. wealthy british style. time to. go. to the. markets. scandal. find out what's really happening to the global economy cars report on our team. and.

welcome back to cross talk i'm here to tell remind you we're talking about the amendments being made to the lisbon treaty. but before let's see what russians think about the e.u. the press is mounting the global financial crisis has plunged the european union into survival mode testing the lisbon treaty as well. the time to understand the first two thousand and nine years after european leaders loans a process to make the e.u. more democratic more transparent and more efficient the russian public opinion research center says the editor of citizens does the european union fifty five percent say they have positive feelings while another thirteen percent feel

negative facing the results escalating crisis the e.u. is also things saying that necessity to amend the treaty. steffen if i go back to you are going back to this bailout clause i mean it seems that you going to have to have carrots also now so if a country doesn't do what it's supposed to it looking at brussels acting like the i.m.f. in europe ok they'll be. strings attached maybe interest jane chains attached ok to the change my organization you know quite well my point is this is that our country if the bailout clock clause will countries lose more and more of their sovereignty if they get into some kind of economic trouble if the ending if the euro can continue to be dysfunctional in the monetary union i don't think it's the euro just zf functional if you take greece for instance it was a very strange way of handling statistics that was. faked then you go to

ireland it's a different case you had the banking system that was was coming into trouble so you have very very different issues coming out it's not to say that the euro is completely generalising owners well you know i mean this sounds like to break this coming back again but i mean you see the absolutely as we go you realize we can actually pick out the year i mean i asked we did i just i you know it's it's very difficult if you talk all the time i'm trying to explain what my view if you're going to hold course interesting to say that that there is there is another there is another country coming on to do. and there you are that's dystonia and i think that's in. very good to do leave what are you doing listening to. robert let me ask you a question the story and i want to keep what you have i want to ask everybody question so a little country one of the baltic republics becomes part of the euro zone and they get into economic trouble and so they just go to brussels and say we need money right ok i mean the moral hazard issued is being imbedded in this treaty ok and i

think that's very dangerous here if i go to robert what do you think about that that's not the only issue that is wrong with the euro the fact is is that these countries cannot survive in a colonsay union with germany they are being destroyed their economies are being seriously undermined because they start in a common c. union with germany and they cannot cope and it will. if you know what it is because its massive current account deficits to germany it cannot work it does not work and these the political elite of you should realize that the euro is failing it is not helping it is creating more divergence within the e.u. if you have the eurozone economies and it should be wound up the country should exit and we'd all be a lot better off when they do ok harry what do you think about that go ahead i want to harry go ahead i think i think that eventually it will be in the benefit of some countries to have the ability to leave the eurozone and i'm sure that in the future

right now we have a fund of seven hundred fifty billion euros but eventually that might prove not to be enough to also save spain in portugal. a stronger or larger economy such as barry might need a lot more than that is available and eventually it might be to their own advantage to say that they will go back to their own national currencies so i agree that the project of the euro isn't proof of this crisis and eventually we will have to look for alternatives. for some countries if not it might jeopardize the whole euro the whole project stephanie is made european go ahead jump in and say that following that if you look a bit north. then you come to feel which is a counter that has euro that has an extremely well kept economy so feelin is a very good example of how a small county can function with the euro and very jason counter to finland is

still near saying indicated earlier that it's going to introduce new rule within very short and i think that's going to be interesting to me and meant anything once again he once again sent out. terms to that to the country are such has to sort of have its house in order when it comes to the economic situation if you don't have your house in order which was the case in greece and if you fake statistics then of course you have trouble but if you have your house in order there's no problem in the u.s. and. germany stefan it doesn't work it doesn't work when you have u.s. most dynamic economies i don't i don't i don't do easily during colonies that are that are suffering and being in the same currency it just does not work. as you are not in the same carriage it might be difficult to judge completely but if you look to feel land which is a county that has a very good handling of its own economy and that has introduced a urine is very happy with it that's a very good example where the swedish example with

a vote is they are hearing kerry let's let harry go go ahead terry i think that what stephan says about phil and proves my point that the nordic countries are doing a lot better than the southern countries spain and portugal are the next and next on the line might be france so the nordic countries are indeed doing a lot better so we might have a division inside the euro zone meaning that eventually we have two hiros a week and this year you know we are going to being the strongest what about you what about it do you to go about your routing out to. and what about that a week your own a strong euro rich europe poor europe i mean whatever it is it's always wrong i mean when it was introduced it was too strong later on it was too weak later on it was just wrong later on it was too weak and went that's goes up and down in a way like the weather when it was introduced if i remember correctly it was one point eighteen dollars later on it changed completely it came down two point nine.

then it was absolutely different so whatever it was it was never good so that's the thing but ok i am i think it's very something very interesting to see that this is here you have campus that try to solve these issues together and i think that's something very very strong and the euro of course facilitates that because you have a more transparent situation than you had previously ok you know the central bank is hardly transferring exactly right robert fully unaccountable i'm very muddy you see the about this if we if this change this bailout plans is added is it opening a pandora's box because yes you know those printing no you exact cannot make a government it is for far more centralized nation and the people of you actually wanted it is a long term project to have most power the european institutions based in brussels not without elected politicians based in their national parliaments carry what do

you think they are in there i mean yes i mean that harriet is going to hearing theory was this a pandora's box i am assuming also and say ok we'll go to you stephanie harry certainly go ahead yes i agree with you. because what we see is that most of our rump are europeans and the president is looking for the economic government of europe he's looking for it and he's using this crisis and. the members of european commission also are using this crisis to take this important step towards european economic government we have never wanted that i don't think it can on the governance should not go. as far as as european commission being able to to to to to lay sanctions on countries to have a. direct effect on national economies that is not how it was planned and that is not what we can accept it is contradictory to contradictory to our sovereignty and i'm sure that if this is brought into the debate by altering the lisbon treaty

many countries that is maybe governments will go ahead but there are there are people's will say no and therefore for such an important step for such an import alteration of this when treaty we should have referendums in various countries. yeah absolutely mad mad mad mad max i mean america had that there's something i mean in order to know what's happening it's good if you have some knowledge about it when it comes to the least country to be fooled that you have the stability pact which gave formerly that commission the right to impose fines on deuce countries that have two big deficits that was not done and you can see that one should have been more sort of eager in following the rules this is not something that was installed with the lisbon treaty that was existed in this the billeted pact and the stability pact was not deficient enough that something then when it comes to the national governments national governments have more power no in the least been treated than they had previously they can also through the city's new deal and also

have. the disabled soldiers go ahead robert i mean it go ahead robert it's good this is when treaty takes far more power away from national governments and any previous treaty to take away sixty sixty three areas of policy making for national control to a you control it is about creating australia like if you really say it which is not ok how do you have listened to the facts you had ok stephanie you know one of the other guy here stephan go ahead if if. if you had listened to what they say because you don't listen to just talk that is that i said that national parliaments have more power no than they had before disabled pretty girls you know they just live in a whole host of areas talked about gary i haven't even played today you have on minister we have the army you lease the national parliament do not don't make most of their national guard in my limited hand and i understood got out of

a german study found that eighty four percent of the new legislation came from brussels national parliaments are becoming increasingly irrelevant as a result of the least been trying to meet that those are the fact that. i mean it you put up so it is true you have to understand i want to salute it to not just national the national all right the national people you are the brits participate in the decision making in and the decision making on the lead is that tori process in process you don't abstain or. are you hearing the last word harry gets the last word go ahead. i'm dealing with this every day national parliaments lose their influence because their governments come home saying we were against it but there was a majority in favor and therefore we were overruled and that leaves parliaments with no instruments to change the policy of their own governments because therefore i gentlemen i'm going to have to jump in here i do not see the trials and

tribulations of the lisbon treaty many thanks to my guest today in stockholm amsterdam and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cross talk as. if. you live only next to the floor of the gaza strip. but also on the border of peace and war. they're responsible not only for themselves. but also for their loved ones. are ready to take any risk.