resident dimitri ms vega urges police to use all lawful means necessary to prevent a repeat of the violence that rocked moscow on saturday dozens of people were injured after a peaceful rally turned into a bloody battle with police that authorities say was instigated by nationalist groups. a new russian ad campaign turns to horrifying images of substance abuse to battle the country's addiction problem the formed unborn babies and children eating dirt these are just some of the sucking scenes used to get the message across. and pyongyang's nuclear program in a return to the negotiating table are on the agenda as russia's foreign minister meets his north korean counterpart this comes amid the heightening of tensions on the korean peninsula. now with the financial crisis gripping the e.u. peter the bell and his gas debate whether the union is doomed that's coming up in a fire edition of crosstalk don't miss it.

we'll. bring you the latest in science and technology from around the world. we've got the future of covered. and. the low in welcome to cross talk i'm peter lebow european union leaders need to consider what is called a minor change to the lisbon treaty that minor changes a guaranteed financial bailout of weaker members is this legitimizing moral hazard and is that even democratic. and. discuss the e.u. in the lisbon. three i'm joined by stephan unique in stockholm he's director of

corporate relations at the center for european policy studies in london we go to robert oulds he's director of the bruges group and in amsterdam we cross to harry vaughan he is a dutch socialist party member of parliament and another member of our crosstalk team on the hunger or a gentleman crosstalk grows in effect you have differences of opinion here so i wanted to be shown first of all i'd like to go to harry when the when the lisbon treaty was being sold peddled to the europeans if i remember correctly the one of the selling points was that they would never be bailouts of member countries but that's what how they watered it down saying look this is we're never going to go that far you know where you know we're not going to violate the sovereignty of other countries we're not going to certainly pay for people to make mistakes in my memory failing me because i remember that that was the selling point i know that was one of the aspects i was brought into the discussion because of course it is

a bit the wrong way that the european union and the monster union has developed. of course you cannot have a. single currency if you do not have a political union facing the problems have to be have to be dealt with concerning. stephan what about you i mean do you support this new clause being brought into the lisbon treaty don't you. i think it's very important for us to say that the reason why we have a list when treaties to make you more efficient in decision making and more democratic and i think that is absolutely what has happened. in the in power since exactly one year it was the first of december last year that it came into power so i think that is something which is very important to deal with robert what do you think of it and of course then of our i think that was one of the most ridiculous comments i've ever heard to argue that the lisbon treaty which was brought in

without having a referendum in many of the countries which were promised referendums especially in great britain france also when the irish rejected the lisbon treaty and had to vote again to argue the lisbon treaty makes the e.u. more democratic and accountable is put to us that is absurd argument that is absolutely bizarre and totally fine i think it has a very very long staff and go ahead you want to it is going to feel it how can the european union really argue that it's democratic step and go ahead first the recent work to have through the lisbon treaty was that you wanted to make e.u. more efficient when it comes to decision making or legal to say it's going to power to the elite internationally and i take pride in the nation stone fan continue continue your point go ahead it's very it's very difficult to argue when there's somebody who interrupts or go ahead steph and you continue this country once again the research i reserve for the aspern treaty was to make e.u. more efficient and more democratic in relation to the enlarged european union up

to twenty seven million a delay not absolute the long night long term plan to centralize power harry what do you think about that i mean i want to talk about this this bailout clause in this program but we've heard is the e.u. now more efficient and democratic. well first of all we have we have to do to bring the issue of sovereignty into the debate and i agree that the sovereignty is at stake because judy the lisbon treaty powers are moving away from the member states to war it's the centralized european state it's not supposed to be called the state anymore because we don't call it the constitution anymore but it has effectively taken away veto powers from the member states and thereby making brussels stronger more democratic in the sense that european parliament has more power but if this power is taken away from the member states especially from the smaller member states then there is

a democratic loss in my opinion now when it comes thinking of harry the we countries when it comes to bailing out the weak countries we are faced by the fact that we have weaker countries in this common economy we have to help them in order to save the euro but as it looks today it might be the case that we cannot save the euro eventually and therefore we are now helping weak economies. by pouring in money from taxpayers and all the meaning of the euro is the problem the euro is the problem that is one of the key things which is made these other economies absolute all in portugal this isn't this is a noisy this is the point here and this is the point i want to go stan i didn't think i think that steph and i don't really realize go ahead go ahead i think it would be i think it would be nice if we talk about what is really happening first money issue is that the european parliament has become much more important in the lisbon treated in previously european parliament is an elected parliament which we

have to remember secondly the national parliaments have much more influence than there than they have previously so that's also a democratic process that has developed another issue which has also developed is that you can collect one million signatures if you. i would like to change something that did not exist previously as i find this more democratic and it's also efficient in the decision making because in certain areas you have a qualified majority voting like you all of us have very qualified things you are on your high doing accounting and a little less hairy go ahead you are leaving you are leaving out the loss of veto rights fee to arise are important instruments in the hands of smaller countries such as another and belgium and many other countries also sweden free to rights are important if you want to block i think this is the wrong because you don't do you are not telling the truth because in certain areas you still have to have a sort of consensus on the decision making that's foreign policy defense yes and

you'll have it on so you agree silly small amount of areas in a democracy you can only exist in the united states let's get fired generation and you think i was insulted in the morning gentlemanlike i agree let's go back to the euro here because that that's how our as our point of reference here i mean moral hazard is certainly in play here and this is a slippery slope and this is what may destroy the euro itself where's the fiscal responsibility in this treaty ok it's a it's a monetary union but there's no fiscal responsibility so you can just go down the path of just wrecking your economy and well let's say it's a gentleman the germans bail you out how do you feel about that harry did i mean it did this this is not the way you can run an economy knowing no household can run their way and no independent state can run that way that is true and therefore this crisis is being abused by those in favor of a federal europe to take steps towards the united states of europe we never wanted

years ago it was promised that we would not create a european state by accepting the lisbon treaty we now see that through the back door they are trying to make this this european project which is in essence an economic project not a. on a trip project into a european state that's not what we. wanted to as you can project it's very early on a single person who says diving i thought it was a mistake joining against the populace at it let me call it a signal. to the staff it was of you gentlemen let's go to stockholm go ahead we talk some of you i don't know what exactly we're all supposed to said that you told my fiscal issues and taxation is a domestic issue which you have to remember you have to have a consensus on that if you have those that is no new e.u. has issued fluence on taxation. it really is countries to have higher corporation

tax it controls it all in direct taxation in calls an increasing amount of business taxation so to argue that taxation is so really the c.e.o. of the daily lives no. home is it's their own it's absolute and i think i'm at the. moment alessandro here in korea. applied it to be cooked in order to be constructive i think it's better one is again one is ruled by what is happening instead of by emotions and i think you're very emotional about your say i try to stick to what the fact is. i'm not absolute you are absolutely bloody recognise this is all your answer always direct sensation that you're going to do you a fair deal don't know how much function you don't know how it functions and i think we're also doing. it here in the european model to north korean monetary union is a political project you have to remember that. harry do you want to jump in here in

a letter here in jersey and we'll hear a johnny b. i know make sense harris jump in and we are now in the middle of a debate of creating more instruments for the for the european commission to introduce european taxes there are examples on the table we are now in the in the debate of creating sanctions the european commission wants more instruments to get involved in the national economies sanctions where. economies and governments do not follow the european rules so we are right in the middle of a debate that we never intended to harm and we should have never answered it really is the enemy so it is there for monetary union without a political union. visionaries only involves understanding only follow a political union and now we're trying to to to to to to get political union accepted because we are facing problems with the monetary union that's that's reality it's no winner unit cohesion is nearly as well into what union the whole

what you have it is wrong when your heart and your you want to your union is wrong european go ahead laughing go ahead go ahead ok when we when the european monetary union was started there was a stability pact connected to the problem when that was that the commission never was tough enough with those canvas who never followed the rules now in the lispund treaty if you understand what the lisbon treaty is the commission has got slightly increased possibility to go back and overview what countries are doing on the economic side so we in the future hopefully will not have lots of. complicated developments on the economic side and that is that what our service delivery when we look at the situation in many of our economies we see that the national debts are far greater than is accepted in the stability and growth pact that we see that but i mean that's what you that is also far greater than the soldiers who accepted . and i think that's also something which is really i mean with the country in

question if i'm happened to be now install code which is probably together would feel numb to best drama. when it comes to know. there are no never no deficit and of course it's a domestic issue you have to all right gentlemen to jump in here we're going to have a short break after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the lisbon treaty stay with r.t. . and. this is a cable from the u.s. embassy in colombo to talk about here and june seventh incident of extrajudicial executions the military according to the press that on that day to kill nine guerrillas and the best suggestion by you know and they strongly suggest however

that the nine were executed by the army and then dressed in military fatigues. explains how you know this kind of phenomenon where bodies are dressed up as guerrillas and presented as killed in action and this and this idea that you need to produce these actually encouraged paramilitary collaboration this is a cia document central intelligence agency they knew about these activities they knew they were happening they knew about links to paramilitary groups and yet. usaid continued to. hungry for the full story we've gone to. the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers. and.

cutting. welcome back to prosecute i'll remind you we're talking about the amendments being made to the lisbon treaty . but before let's see what russians think about the e.u. the pressure is mounting the global financial crisis has plunged the european union into survival mode testing the lisbon treaty as well the truth it took effect on december first two thousand and nine eight years after european leaders longed a process to make the e.u. more democratic more transparent and more efficient the russian public opinion research center as says the editor of citizens does the european union. fifty five percent say they have positive feelings while another thirteen percent feel

negative facing the results escalating crisis the e.u. is also things saying that necessity to man the truth. stephanie if i go back to you going back to this bailout clause i mean it seems that you going to have to have carrots also now so if a country doesn't do what it's supposed to be looking at brussels acting like the i.m.f. in europe ok they'll be. strings attached maybe interest jane chains attached ok to the change between my organization but my point is this is that our country if with the bailout called clause will countries lose more and more of their sovereignty if they get into some kind of economic trouble if the ending if the euro continues to be dysfunctional within the monetary union i don't think it's the euro just dysfunctional if you take greece for instance that it was a very strange way of handling statistics that was. faked then you go to

ireland it's a different case you had the banking system that was coming into trouble so you have very very different issues coming out it's not to say that the euro is completely different or gentleness well you know i mean this sounds like to break this coming back again but i mean you see the absolutely as we go you realize we can actually pick out the year i mean we didn't i just you know it's it's very difficult if you talk all the time i'm trying to explain what my view if you're going to hold course interesting to say that that there is there is another there is another country coming on. to join the euro that's just onya and i think that's the thing that russia are able to do what are you doing. robert let me ask you a question about aryans want to keep what you're saying i want to ask everybody question so a little country one of the baltic republics becomes part of the euro zone and they gave in to eat. trouble and so they just go to brussels and say we need money right ok i mean the moral hazard issued is being imbedded in this treaty ok and i think

that's very dangerous here if i go to robert what do you think about that that's not the only issue that's wrong with the euro the fact is that these countries cannot survive in a colony union with germany they are being destroyed their economies are being seriously undermined because they start in a common c. union with germany and they cannot cope and it will. because it's massive current account deficits to germany it cannot work it does not work and these the political elite of you should realize that the euro is failing it is not helping it is creating more divergence within the e.u. if you mean the eurozone economies and it should be wound up the country should exit and we'd all be a lot better off when they do ok harry what do you think about that go ahead i want to harry go ahead i think i think that eventually it will be in the benefit of some countries to have the ability to leave the eurozone and i'm sure that in the future

right now we have a fund of seven hundred fifty billion euros but eventually that might prove not to be enough to also save spain in portugal draws to a stronger or larger economy searches very might need a lot more than that is available and eventually it might be to their own advantage to say that they will go back to their own national currencies so i agree that the project of the euro isn't proof of this crisis and eventually we will have to look for alternatives for some countries if not it might jeopardize the whole euro the whole project stephanie. go ahead and jump in and say enough if you look a bit north. then you come to feel which is a counter that has you that has an extremely well kept economy so feeling. it's a very good example how a small county can function with the euro and the very jason country to finland is

still near saying indicated earlier that it's going to introduce to you within very short and i think that's going to be interesting development and it's consequently once again. i think it terms to that to cap the country are such has to sort of have its house in order when it comes to the economic situation if you don't have your house in order which was the case in greece and if you fake statistics then of course you have trouble but if you have your house in order there's no problem in the u.s. and he surely nicholas in germany stefan it doesn't work it doesn't work when you have yes most dynamic economy i don't i don't i don't do easily your economy is that there are suffering and being in the same currency it just does not work. as you are not in the same town as it might be difficult to judge she completely but if you look to feel land which is a county that has a very good handling of its own economy and that has introduced the euro and is very happy with it that's a very good example where the swedish example is in step with voters is they are

hearing kerry said harry go go ahead terry i think that what stephan says about finland proves my point that the nordic countries are doing a lot better than the southern countries spain and portugal are the next and next on the line might be france so the nordic countries are indeed doing a lot better so we might have a division inside the eurozone meaning that eventually we have two hiros a week and this year you know being the strong analyst what about you what about it do you have to hear a lot of lot of these names and what about that a week your own a strong euro rich europe poor europe i mean whatever it is it's always wrong i mean when it was introduced it was too strong later on it was too weak later on it was too strong later on it was too weak i mean that's goes up and down in a way like the weather when it was introduced to fire. remember correctly it was one point eighteen dollars later on it changed completely it came down two point

nine. then it was absolutely different so whatever it was it was never good so that's the thing but ok i am i think it's very something very interesting to see that this is here you have campus that try to solve these issues together and i think that's something very very strong and the euro of course facilitates that because you have a more transparent situation than you had previously ok you know the central bank is hardly transferring exactly right robert fully unaccountable number of these seal about this if we if this change this bailout plan says that it is it opening a pandora's box because yes you know printing no european exact cannot make a government it is a form of far more centralization and the people of you actually wanted it is a long term project to have most power the european institutions based in brussels not with our elected politicians based in their national parliaments harry what do you think we are in there i mean you're actually down here you go here in theory

was this a pandora's box i'm assuming also and say ok we're going to use different military certainly go ahead yes i agree with that certainly because what we see is that mr von rambow europeans and the president is looking for the economic government of europe he's looking for it and he's using this crisis and. the members of european commission also are using this crisis to take this important step towards european economic government we have never wanted that i don't think it can on the governance should not go as far as as european commission being able to to to to to lay sanctions on countries to to have a. direct effect on national economies that is not how it was planned and that is not what we can accept it is contradictory to contradictory to our sovereignty and i. i'm sure that if this is brought into the debate by altering the lisbon

treaty many countries that is maybe governments will go ahead but there are their peoples will say no and therefore for such an important step for such an import alteration of this one treaty we should have referendums in various countries. yes absolutely mad mad mad mad max i mean how to go ahead that there is something i mean in order to know what's happening it's good if you have some knowledge about it when it comes to the least country to be fooled that you have the stability pact which gave formerly that commission the right to impose fines or induce countries that have two big deficits that was not done and you can see that one should have been more sort of eager in following the rules this is not something that was installed with the lisbon treaty that was existed in the stability pact and the stability pact was not deficient enough that something then when it comes to the national governments national governments have more power no in the least been treated than they had previously they can also through cities new zealand also have

these other services but i mean. go ahead robert i mean it go ahead robert it's good this is when treaty takes far more power away from national governments and any previous treaty to take away sixty sixty three areas of policy making from national control to a you control it is about creating australia like if you really state which is not a q had listed all the facts you had ok stephanie you know one of the other guys stephan go ahead if if you had listened to what i said because you don't listen to just talk there is that i said that national parliaments have more power now than they had before the label treat a girl who's a legislator in a whole host of areas looked about galileo i haven't even played minutes they have on minister we have the army you list the national parliaments do. you know don't make most of their not like that in my limited time to come to that really isn't it

a german study found that eighty four percent of the new legislation came from brussels national parliaments are becoming increasingly irrelevant as a result of the least been trained i mean that those are the fact that. when you put up so it is true you have to understand only who are actually true not just national parliaments the national alright the national people you are the brits participate in the decision making in and the decision making on the lead is the tory process in bronson's you don't abstain or parties or single thing you hear the last word harry gets the last word go ahead. i'm dealing with this every day national parliaments lose their influence because their governments come home saying we were against it but there was a majority in favor and therefore we were overruled and that leaves parliaments with no instruments to change the policy of their own governments because therefore i gentlemen i'm going to have to jump in here i do not see the trials and

tribulations of the lisbon treaty many thanks to my guest today in stockholm amsterdam and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cross talk as. you. still. want.

in india oh geez availability in the movie the joys the photos of us the gateway hoto the brand imperial trying to tell us to push clearly until you can to let her tell the close of the shoto saddam did to go and. run the sim the colonel was her job as a retreat. president had made him found any legal means to punish the perpetrators of the weekend's football riots in downtown moscow and to prevent further violence. i just starving russian anti trucks campaign to stop what the producers say it's the only.