crosstalk is coming up next here in r.t. stay with us. hungry for the full story we've got. the biggest issues get a human voice things to face with the news makers. and you can. follow in welcome to crossfire guyon peter lavelle european union leaders need to consider what is called a minor change to the lisbon treaty that minor changes a guaranteed financial bailout of weaker members is this legitimizing moral hazard and is that even democratic. and you can. discuss the e.u. in the lisbon treaty i'm joined by stephan unique in stockholm he's director of corporate relations at the center for european policy studies in london we go to

robert oulds he's director of the bruges group and in amsterdam we crossed the harry vaughan bell now he is a dutch socialist party member of parliament and another member of our cross talk team on the hunger or a gentleman crosstalk grows in effect you have differences of opinion here so i wanted to be shown first of all i'd like to go to harry when the when the lisbon treaty was being sold peddled to the europeans if i remember correctly the one of the selling points was that they would never be bailouts of member countries but that's what how they watered it down saying look this is we're never going to go that far you know where you know we're not going to violate the sovereignty of other countries we're not going to certainly pay for people to make mistakes it is my memory failing me because i remember that that was a selling point i know that that was one of the aspects i was brought into discussion because of course it is a bit the wrong way that the european union and the money for union has developed.

of course you cannot have. single currency if you do not have a political union and we're facing the problems have to be have to be dealt with today stephan what about you i mean do you support this new clause being brought into the treaty don't you i think it's very important for us to say that the reason why we have a list when treaties to make you more efficient in decision making and more democratic and i think that is absolutely what has happened really good since it has been in the in power since exactly one year it was the first of december last year that it came into power so i think that is something which is very important to deal with robert what do you think of it and of course then of our i think that was one of the most ridiculous comments i've ever heard to argue that the lisbon treaty which was brought in without having a referendum in many of the countries which were promised referendums especially in

great britain france also when the irish rejected the lisbon treaty and had to vote again to argue the lisbon treaty makes the e.u. more democratic and accountable is proposed to us that is absurd argument that is absolutely bizarre and totally fine i think what i think has a very steady. stephanie go ahead you want to it is easily defeated how can the european union really argue that it's democratic steffen go ahead. first the recent went to and from the least been treated worse that you wanted to make it more efficient when it comes to decision making he wanted you to say i was going to power to the elite international and i plan to go to a new nation stone fan continue continue your point go ahead it's very it's very difficult to argue when there's somebody who interrupts or go ahead steph and you continue this country once again the research i reserve for the earliest going treaty was to make a more efficient and more democratic in relation to the enlarged european union up to twenty seven member states not absolutes along right long term plan to

centralize power harry what do you think about that i mean i want to talk about this bailout clause in this program but we've heard is the e.u. now more efficient and democratic. well first of all we have we have to do to bring the issue of sovereignty into the debate and i agree that the sovereignty is at stake because jus to the lisbon treaty powers are moving away from the member states to war it's the centralized european state it's not supposed to be called the state anymore because we don't call it the constitution anymore but it has effectively taken away veto powers from the member states and thereby making brussels stronger more democratic in the sense that european parliament has more power but if this power is taken away from the member states especially from the smaller member states then there is a democratic loss in my opinion now when it comes to dealing with kerry the we

countries when it comes to bailing out the we countries we are faced by the fact that we have weaker countries in this common economy we have to help them in order to save the euro but as it looks today it might be the case that we cannot say the euro eventually and therefore we are now helping weak economies. by pouring in money from taxpayers and all the meaning of the euro is the problem the euro is the problem that is one of the key things which is made these other economies absolute all in portugal this isn't this is a noisy this is the point here and this is the point i want to get stan to go do you think i think that stephanie that really you realize go ahead go ahead i think it would be i think it would be nice if we talk about what is really happening first one issue is that the european parliament has become much more important in the lisbon treated in previously european parliament is an elected parliament which we have to remember secondly the national parliaments have much more influence than

there than they have previously so that's also a democratic process that has developed another issue which has also developed is that you can collect one million signatures if you. i would like to change something that did not exist previously as i find this more democratic and it's also efficient in the decision making because in certain areas you have a qualified majority voting like you all of us have very qualified things you are on your high doing accounting and a little less hairy go ahead you are leaving you are leaving out the loss of veto rights fee to arise are important instruments in the hands of smaller countries such as another and belgium and many other countries also sweden free to rights are important if you want to block i think this is you're wrong because you don't do you're not telling the truth because in certain areas you still have to have a sort of consensus on the decision making that's foreign policy defense yes and you'll have it and so you know it's pretty silly small amount of areas in

a democracy that only exists in the united states let's k. fire jenny surely you think i was insulted that interesting document gentlemanlike i agree let's go back to the euro here because that that's how our as our point of reference here i mean moral hazard is certainly in play here and this is a slippery slope and this is what may destroy the euro itself where's the fiscal responsibility in this treaty ok it's a it's a monetary union but there's no fiscal responsibility so you can just go down the path of just wrecking your economy and well let's say it's a gentleman the germans bail you out how do you feel about that harry did i mean it did this this is not the way you can run an economy no one no household can run their way and no independent state can run that way that is true and therefore this crisis is being abused by those in favor of a federal europe to take steps towards the united states of europe we never wanted years ago it was promised that we would not create

a european state by accepting the lisbon treaty we now see that through the back door they are trying to make this this european project which is innocence an economic project not a. on a trip project into a european state that's not what we. want to tell you in if i can project it's very early on the singles scene he says damning i thought it was a mistake joining the cast of the popular let me call it. the staff it was of you gentlemen let's go to stockholm go ahead we talk some of you i don't know what exactly we're all supposed to said that you talk about fiscal issues and taxation is a domestic issue which you have to remember you have to have a consensus on that if you have those that is know you are viewing the e.u. has as you fluent on taxation. it really is countries to have higher corporation tax it controls it all in direct taxation in quotes in increasing amount of

business taxation so to argue that taxation is so really the c.e.o. dealing with. home is it's wrong it's absolutely and i think i'm on the. television on the today show and holiday here in korea. let's stand here applaud it to be cooked in order to be coarse attractive i think it's better one is again one is ruled by what is happening instead of by emotions and i think you are very emotional about your say i try to stick to what defectors. i'm not absolutely sure you learn to recognize this is all humans are always in direct sensation that you're going to do you a fair deal don't know how much function you don't know how it functions and i think we're also doing. it here in the european model to north korean monetary union is a political project you have to remember that. harry do you want to join us here in a letter here a chance we hear a johnny b. in a make sense here is jumping and we are now in the middle of

a debate of creating more instruments for the for the european commission to introduce european taxes there are examples on the table we are now in the debate of creating sanctions the european commission wants more instruments to get involved in the national economies sanctions where. economies and governments do not follow the european rules so we are right in the middle of a debate that we never intended to harm and we should have never answered it really is a way for me so it is the whole monetary union without a political union. visionaries only involves understanding only follow a political union and now we're trying to to to to to to get a political union accepted because we are facing problems with the monetary union that's that's the reality it's now whether you know the commission is there is well into what union the whole what you had up to is wrong where when your heart and your you want to you know is wrong european guy had left hand go ahead ok when we

when the european monetary union was started there was a stability pact connected to the problem and that was that the commission never was tough enough with those canvassed who never followed the rules know in the lispund treaty if you understand what the lisbon treaty is the commission has got slightly increased possibility to go back and overview what countries are doing on the economic side so we in the future hopefully will not have lots of. complicated developments on the economic side and that is that what our service delivery when we look at the situation in many of our economies we see that the national debts are far greater than is accepted in the stability and growth pact that we see that but i mean that such as that is also far greater source to accepted. and i think that's also something which is really going on with the country crest and if i'm

happened to be now in stalker which is probably together would feel numb to best drama. when it comes to know. there are no neven of deficit and of course it's a domestic use you have to all right gentlemen to jump in here we're going to have a short break out after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the lisbon treaty stay with r.t. . if you. want to. marry a. renaissance could. come closer. to the. holiday inn ski patrol the radio national in the radian country club some

pulling shirts and thomas p. to the first. golden apple boutique hotel. to live not only next to the border with gaza. but also on the border of peace and war. they're responsible not only for themselves. but also for their loved ones. they are ready to take any risk.

welcome back to rostock i'm neutral about remind you we're talking about the amendments being made to the lisbon treaty. but before let's see what russians think about the e.u. the pressure is mounting the global financial crisis has plunged the european union into survival mode testing their lives the treaty as well the two took effect on december first two thousand and nine eight years after european leaders longs a process to make the e.u. more democratic more transparent and more efficient the russian public opinion research center says the editor of citizens does the european union fifty five percent say they have positive feelings while another thirteen percent feel negative facing the eurozone crisis the e.u.

is also facing the necessity to amend the treaty. stuff and if i can go back to you are going back to this bailout clause i mean it seems that you going to have to have carrots also now so if a country doesn't do what it's supposed to be looking at brussels acting like the i.m.f. in europe ok they'll be. strings attached may be interesting to me chains attached ok to they changed my organization no good but my point is this is that our country if with a bailout called cause will countries lose more and more of their sovereignty if they get into some kind of economic trouble if they and if the euro can continue to be dysfunctional within the monetary union i don't think it's the euro just as functional if you take greece for instance it was a very strange way of handling statistics that was. fake. then you go to ireland it's a different case you have the banking system that was was coming into trouble so

you have very very different issues coming out it's not to say that the euro is completely different either gentleness well you know i mean this sounds like to bridge this coming back again but i mean you see the absolutely as we've come to realize we can actually pick out the year i mean. you know it's it's very difficult if you talk all the time i'm trying to explain what my view if you're going to hold cross interesting to say that that there is there is another there is another country coming on to join the euro that's dystonia and i think that's in. very good to do with what are you doing i use against bernie and robert let me ask you a question about aryans want to keep what you're saying i want to ask everybody question so a little country one of the baltic republics becomes part of the euro zone and they get into economic trouble and so they just go to brussels and say we need money right ok i mean the moral hazard issues is being imbedded in this treaty ok and i

think that's a very dangerous here if i go to robert what do you think about that that's that's not the only issue this wrong with the euro the fact is that these countries cannot survive in a colonsay union with germany they are being destroyed their economies are being seriously undermined because they are stuck in a common sea union with germany and they cannot cope and it will. if you look at it is because it's massive current account deficits to germany it cannot work it does not work and these the political elite of you should realize that the euro is failing it is not helping it is creating more divergence within the e.u. if you in the eurozone economies and it should be wound up the country should exit and we'd all be a lot better off when they do ok harry what do you think about that go ahead i want to harry go ahead i think i think that eventually it will be in the benefit of some countries to have the. the ability to leave the eurozone and i'm sure that in the future right now we have

a fund of seven hundred fifty billion euros but eventually that might prove not to be enough to also save spain in portugal draws to a stronger or larger economy such is very might need a lot more than that is available and eventually it might be to their own advantage to say that they will go back to their own national currencies so i agree that the project of the euro isn't proof of this crisis and eventually we will have to look for alternatives for some countries if not it might jeopardize the whole euro the whole project stephanie. go ahead i jump in and say definitely if you look a bit north. then you come to feel which is a counter that has euro that has an extremely well kept economy so feelin is a very good example how a small county can function with the euro and the very adjacent country to finland is still me i say indicated earlier that it's going to introduce new rule within

very short and i think that's going to be interesting development and advancing early once again. i think it terms to that to the country are such has to sort of have its house in order when it comes to the economic situation if you don't have your house in order which was the case in greece and if you fake statistics then of course you have trouble but if you have your house in order there's no problem in the u.s. and we surely nicholas in germany stephanie it doesn't work it doesn't work when you have years most dynamic economy i don't i don't i don't do easily during colonies that are that are suffering and being in the same currency it just does not work. as you are not in the same carriage it might be difficult to judge it completely but if you look to feel land which is a country that has a very good handling of its own economy and that has introduced the euro and is very happy with it. very good example where the swedish example is instead run with a vote to stay oh harry harry said harry go go ahead harry i think that what

stephan says about phil and proves my point that the nordic countries are doing a lot better than the southern countries spain and portugal are the next and next on the line might be france so the nordic countries are indeed doing a lot better so we might have a division inside erodes own meaning that eventually we have two heroes a week and this year you know we are going to being the strongest so what about you what about it due to. your rolling out to work of the us and what about that a week your own a strong euro rich europe poor europe i mean whatever it is it's always wrong i mean when it was introduced it was too strong later on it was too weak later on it was too strong later on it was too weak and went that's goes up and down in a way like the weather when it was introduced if i remember correctly it was one point eighteen dollars later on it changed completely came down two point nine.

then it was absolutely different so whatever it was it was never good so that's a thing but ok i am i think it's very something very interesting to see that this is here you have campus that try to solve these issues together and i think that says something very very strong and the euro of course facilitates that because you have a more transparent situation than you had previously ok you know the central bank is hardly transferring exactly a well right robert fully unaccountable i'm very muddy and see the about this if we if this change this bailout plan did is it opening a pandora's box because you both when you know you exact cannot make a government it is for far more centralization and the people of you actually wanted it is a long term project to have most power at the european institutions based in brussels not with our elected politicians based in a national. elements harry what do you think leon i mean yes i mean you know here you go here in theory was this

a pandora's box i am assuming also and say ok we're going to use different military certainly go ahead yes i agree with are totally because what we see is that most of our rump are europeans and the president is looking for the economic government of europe he's looking for it and he's using this crisis and. the members of european commission also are using this crisis to take this important step towards european economic government we have never wanted that i don't think it can on the governance should not go as far as as european commission being able to to to to to lay sanctions on countries to have a. direct effect on national economies that is not how it was planned and that is not what we can accept it is contradictory to contradictory to our sovereignty and i'm sure that if this is brought into the debate by altering the lisbon treaty and many countries that is maybe governments will go ahead but there are there are

people's will say no and therefore for such an important step for such an import alteration of this when treaty we should have referendums in various countries. yeah absolutely mad mad mad mad max i mean are you going to add that there is something i mean in order to know what's happening it's good if you have some knowledge about it when it comes to the least country to be fooled that you have the stability pact which gave formerly that commission the right to impose fines on deuce countries that have two big deficits that was not done and you can see that one should have been more sort of eager in following the rules this is not something that was installed with the lisbon treaty that was existed in this the military pact and the stability pact was not deficient enough that something then when it comes to the national governments national governments have more power no in the lisbon treaty. they had previously they can order through seas new zealand also have this service of. good to say because tourists go ahead robert i mean go

ahead robert it's good this is when treaty takes far more power away from national governments and any previous treaty to take away sixty sixty three areas of policy making from national control to e.u. control it is about creating or centralised if you really feel which is not against you have listened to the facts you had ok stephanie you know what it is you are going to stephan go ahead if if you had listened to what they say because you don't listen to just talk that is that i said that national parliaments have that more power now than they have before do people treat a girl who is a legislator in the whole host of talked about gambling i haven't even played a minute say you have on minister we have the army you list the national parliaments do not don't make most of their national guard in my limited hand and i can't even got out of a german study found eighty four percent of the new legislation came from brussels

national parliaments are becoming increasingly irrelevant as a result of the lisbon trying to me that those are the fact that. and when you put up somebody through you have to understand i would were actually to not just national bottom and the national all right the national people you are the brits participate in the decision making in and the decision making and the lead just authority process in bronson's you don't abstain or the parties are showing up on the mat for you very last word harry gets the last word go ahead. i'm dealing with this every day national parliaments lose their influence because their governments come home saying we were against it but there was a majority in favor and therefore we were overruled and that leaves parliaments with no instruments to change the policy of their own governments because therefore i gentlemen i'm going to have to jump in here i do not see the trials and tribulations of the lisbon treaty many thanks to my guest today in stockholm

amsterdam and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember crosstalk bulls. can. still.

no.

she's. in the middle of the den standing live in the heart of the russian capital waiting to bring you latest on the situation. away from the brink of conflict. russian drugs come to show the. only way to. play.