if you can. follow in welcome to crossfire guyon peter lavelle european union leaders need to consider what is called a minor change to the lisbon treaty that minor changes a guaranteed financial bailout of weaker members is this legitimizing moral hazard and is it even democratic. to. discuss the e.u.

in the lisbon treaty i'm joined by stephan your neck in stockholm he's director of corporate relations at the center for european policy studies in london we go to robert oulds he's director of the bruges group and in amsterdam we cross to harry von braun now he is a dutch socialist party member of parliament and another member of our crosstalk team on the hunger or a gentleman crosstalk grows in effect you have differences of opinion here so i wanted to be shown first of all i'd like to go to harry when the when the lisbon treaty was being sold peddled to the europeans if i remember correctly the one of the selling points was that they would never be bailouts of member countries but that's what how they watered it down saying look this is we're never going to go that far you know where you know we're not going to violate the sovereignty of other countries when i certainly pay for people to make mistakes it is my memory failing me because i remember that that was a selling point i know that that was one of the aspects i was brought into the discussion because of course it is

a bit the wrong way that the european union and the monetary union has developed. of course you cannot have a. single currency if you do not have a political union and we're facing the problems that have to be have to be dealt with concerning the today steffen what about you i mean do you support this new clause being brought into the lisbon treaty don't you. i think it's very important for us to say that the reason why we have a list when treaties to make you more efficient in decision making and more democratic and i think that is absolutely what has happened since it has been in the in power since exactly one year it was the first of december last year that it came into power so i think that is something which is very important to deal with robert what do you think of another course then of our i think that was one of the most ridiculous comments i've ever heard to argue that the lisbon treaty which was

brought in without having a referendum in many of the countries which were promised referendums especially in great britain france also when the irish rejected the lisbon treaty and had to vote again to argue the lisbon treaty makes the e.u. more democratic and accountable is proposes to us that is absurd argument that is absolutely bizarre and totally fine i think that's very very wrong stephanie go ahead you want to it is easy to feel it how can the european union really argue that it's democratic stephanie go ahead first the recent went to it through the least don't treat the worst if you wanted to make it more efficient when it comes to decision making or legal to say i was going to power to the elite internationally and i take your new nation state fan continue continue your point go ahead it's very it's very difficult to argue when there's somebody who interrupts or go ahead steph and you continue this country once again the research i reserve for the aspern treaty was to make even more efficient and more democratic

in relation to the enlarged european union up to twenty seven million not absolutes a long night long term plan to centralize power harry what do you think about that i mean i want to talk about this bailout clause in this program but we've heard is the e.u. now more efficient and democratic. well first of all we have we have to do to bring the issue of sovereignty into the debate and i agree that the sovereignty is at stake because due to the lisbon treaty powers are moving away from the member states to war it's the centralized european state it's not supposed to be called the state anymore because we don't call it the constitution anymore but it has effectively taken away veto powers from the member states and thereby making brussels stronger more democratic in the sense that european parliament has more power but if this power is taken away from the member states especially from the small a member states then there is

a democratic loss in my opinion now when it comes to dealing with kerry the we countries when it comes to bailing out the we countries we are faced by the fact that we have weaker countries in this common economy we have to help them in order to save the euro but as it looks today it might be the case that we cannot save the euro eventually and therefore we are now helping weak economies. by pouring in money from taxpayers and all the meaning of the euro is the problem the euro is the problem that is one of the key things which is made these other economies absolute all in portugal this isn't this is a noisy this is the point here and this is the point i want to go stan to go do you think i think that steph and i don't really you realize go ahead go ahead i think it would be i think it would would be nice if we talk about what is really happening first one issue is that the european parliament has become much more important in the lisbon treated in previously european parliament is an elected

parliament which we have to remember secondly the national parliaments have much more influence than there than they have previously so that's also a democratic process that has developed another issue which has also developed is that you can collect one million signatures if you. i would like to change something that did not exist previously as i find this more democratic and it's also efficient in the decision making because in certain areas you have a qualified majority voting like you all of us have very qualified things you are on your high doing accounting and a little less hairy go ahead you are leaving you are leaving out the loss of veto rights fee to arise are important instruments in the hands of smaller countries such as another and belgium and many other countries also sweden free to rights are important if you want to block i think this is a wrong because you don't you're not telling the truth because in certain areas you still have to have a sort of consensus on the decision making that's foreign policy defense yes and

you'll have it and so you need principally small amounts of areas in a democracy you can only exist in the united states let's go if i gesture that you think i was insulted in the morning don't you know gentlemen like i agree let's go back to the euro here because that that's how our as our point of reference here i mean moral hazard is certainly in play here and this is a slippery slope and this is what may destroy the euro itself where is the fiscal responsibility in this treaty ok it's a it's a monetary union but there's no fiscal responsibility so you can just go down the path of just wrecking your economy and well let's say it's a gentleman the germans bail you out how do you feel about that harry did i mean it did this this is not the way you can run an economy no one no household could run their way and no independent state can run that way that is true and therefore this crisis is being abused by those in favor of a federal europe to take steps towards the united states of europe we never wanted

years ago it was promised that we would not create a european state by accepting the lisbon treaty we now see that through the back door they are trying to make this this european project which is in essence an economic project not them. on a trip project into a european state that's not what we. want to tell you and if i can project it's very early on a single shot she was standing i thought it was a mistake joining the cast the populace at it let me call me. the staff it was of you gentlemen let's go to stockholm go ahead we talk some of you i don't know what exactly we're all supposed to said that you talk about fiscal issues and taxation is a domestic issue which you have to remember you have to have a consensus on that if you have those now that is no new e.u. has its roots on taxation. it really is countries to have higher corporation tax it

controls it all in direct taxation in calls in increasing amount of business taxation so to argue that taxation is so really the c.e.o. of the daily lives no. home is their own it's absolute and i think i'm on the. verge on the change elements holiday here in korea nation state area let's stand on your planet to be cooked in order to be coarse attractive i think it's better one is again one is ruled by what is happening instead of by emotions and i think you're very emotional about your say i try to stick to what the fact is. is run i'm not absolute you are absolutely bloody recognise this is all humans are always direct sensation that you're going to tell you a fair deal don't know how much function you don't know how it functions and i think. here in the european model to north korean monetary union is a political project you have to remember that. harry do you want to jump in is

larry johnson we hear a johnny b. in a make sense here is jumping and we are now in the middle of a debate of creating more instruments for the for the european commission to introduce european taxes there are examples on the table we are now in the in the debate of creating sanctions the european commission wants more instruments to get involved in the national economies sanctions where. economies and governments do not follow the european rules so we are right in the middle of a debate that we never intended to harm and we should have never answered it really is the enemy so it is there for monetary union without a political union. visionaries only involves understanding only follow a political union and now we're trying to to to to to to get a political union accepted because we are facing problems with the monetary union that's that's the reality it's now when unit cohesion is nearly always well into

one union the whole what you have it is wrong where when your heart and your you want to you know is wrong european go ahead laugh and glad you had ok when we when the european monetary union was started there was a stability pact connected to the problem and that was that the commission never was tough enough with those canvas who never followed the rules know in the lispund treaty if you understand what the least one treaty is the commission has got slightly increased possibility to go back and overview what countries are doing on the economic side so we in the future hopefully will not have lots of. complicated developments on the economic side and that is that what our service delivery when we look at the situation in many of our economies we see that the national debts are far greater than is accepted in the stability and growth pact that we see that but i mean that such a that is also far greater than the soldiers who accepted. and i think that's also

something which is when she is willing to break with the country in question if i'm happened to be now install code which is probably together would feel not the best drum countries when it comes to not level there are no level of deficits and of course it's a domestic case you have to all right gentlemen to really jump in here we're going to have a short break after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the lisbon treaty stay with r.t. . and you can. download the official placation to on the phone on called touch from the q. saps to. watch on t.v. life on the go. video on demand. money fuel

costs and feeds now in the palm of your. question on the dot com. we'll. bring you the latest in science and technology from around the world. we've got the future are covered. welcome back to rostock i'm you know about remind you we're talking about the amendments being made to billy's been treated. before let's see what russians think about the e.u. the pressure is mounting the global financial crisis has plunged the european union

into survival mode testing their lives the treaty as well the two took effect on december first two thousand and nine eight years after european leaders launched a process to make the e.u. more democratic more transparent and more efficient the russian public opinion research center says the editor of citizens does the european union fifty five percent say they have positive feelings while another thirteen percent feel negative they saying they will result escalating crisis the e.u. is also facing the necessity to amend the treaty. steffen if i go back to you are going back to this bailout clause i mean it seems that you going to have to have carrots also now so if a country doesn't do what it's supposed to it looking at brussels acting like the i.m.f. in europe ok they'll be. strings attached may be interesting to me chains attached

ok to they changed my organization but my point is this is that our country if with the bailout called clause will countries lose more and more of their sovereignty if they get into some kind of economic trouble if they and if the euro can continue to be dysfunctional within the monetary union i don't think it's the euro just as functional if you take greece for instance it was a very strange way of. the statistics that was. faked then you go in and it's a different case you had the banking system that was was coming into trouble so you have very very different issues coming out it's not to say that the euro is completely different under gentleness well you know i mean this sounds like to break this coming back again but i mean you see the absolutely as we can realize we can actually pick out the year i mean. you know it's it's very difficult if you talk all the time i'm trying to explain what my view if you're going to hold course

interesting to say that that there is there is another there is another country coming on to join the euro that's just onya and i think that's in a holding that russia very good to do what are you doing i use against. robert let me ask you a question about aryans want to keep what you're saying i want to ask everybody question so a little country one of the baltic republics becomes part of the euro zone and they get into economic trouble and so they just go to brussels and say we need money right ok i mean the moral hazard issue is being imbedded in this treaty ok and i think that's very dangerous here if i go to robert what do you think about that that's that's not the only issue that's wrong with the euro the fact is is that these countries cannot survive in a colonsay union with germany they are being destroyed their economies are being seriously undermined because they are stuck in a common sea union with germany and they cannot cope and it will. be unless it is

because it's massive current account deficits to germany it cannot work it does not work and these the political elite of you should realize that the euro is failing it is not helping it is creating more divergence within the e.u. if you have the eurozone economies and it should be wound up the country should exit and we'd all be a lot better off when they do ok harry what do you think about that go ahead i want to harry go ahead i think i think that eventually it will be. the benefit of some countries to have the ability to leave the eurozone and i'm sure that in the future right now we have a fund of seven hundred fifty billion euros but eventually that might prove not to be enough to also save spain in portugal. a stronger or larger economy such as barry might need a lot more than that is available and eventually it might be to their own advantage to say that they will go back to their own national currencies so i agree that the

project of the euro isn't proof of this crisis and eventually we will have to look for alternatives for some countries if not it might jeopardize the whole euro the whole project stephanie. go ahead jump in and say that following that if you look a bit north. then you come to feel which is a country that has euro and that has an extremely well kept economy so feelin is a very good example how a small country can function with the euro and the very good jason country to finland is still me i say indicated earlier that it's going to introduce to you within very short and i think that's going to be interesting dearly and meant anything once again he once again sent out. terms to that to the country are such has to sort of have its house in order when it comes to the economic situation if you don't have your house in order which was the case in greece and if you fake statistics then of course you have trouble but if you have your house in order

there is no problem in the u.s. and he surely inequality in germany staff and it doesn't work it doesn't work when you have years most dynamic economy i don't i don't i don't do easily or during economies that are that are suffering and being in the same currency it just does not work. as you are not in the same carriage it might be difficult to judge completely but if you look to feel land which is a country that has a very good handling of its own economy. and that has introduced the euro and is very happy with it that's a very good example of the swedish examples and with a vote to stay on harry harry harry go go ahead harry i think what stephan says about phil and proves my point that the nordic countries are doing a lot better than the southern countries spain and portugal are the next and next on the line might be france so the nordic countries are indeed doing a lot better so we might have a division inside the euro zone meaning that eventually we have two hiros

a week and this year you know we are going to being the struggle so what about you what about it due to. your rolling out to heroes of part of the us and what about at a week your own a strong euro rich europe poor europe i mean whatever it is it's always wrong when when it was introduced it was too strong later on it was too weak it later on it was too strong later on it was too weak and went that's goes up and down in a way like the weather when it was introduced if i remember correctly it was one point eighteen dollars later on it changed completely it came down two point nine. then it was absolutely different so whatever it was it was never good so that's the thing but ok i am i think it's very something very interesting to see that this is here you have campus that try to solve these issues together and i think that's something very very strong and the euro of course facilitates that because you have a more transparent situation than you had previously ok you know the central bank

is hard to transfer exactly it will robert fully unaccountable i'm very muddy and see what about this if we if this change this bailout plans is added is it opening a pandora's box because yes you know you both and you know you exact cannot make a government for far more centralization and the people of you actually wanted it is a long term project to have most power the european institutions based in plus. not without elected politicians placed in a national parliaments carry what do you think we are in there i mean you actually don't hear realistically here in theory was this a pandora's box i'm assuming also and say ok we're going to use different military certainly go ahead yes i agree with are totally because what we see is that most of our rump are europeans and the president is looking for the economic government of europe he's looking for it and he's using this crisis and. the members of european commission also are using this crisis to take this important step towards european

economic government we have never wanted that i don't think it can on the governance should not go as far as as european commission being able to to to to to lay sanctions on countries to have a. direct effect on national economies that is not how it was planned and that is not what we can accept it is contradictory contradictory to our sovereignty and i'm sure that if this is brought into the debate by altering the lisbon treaty and many countries that is maybe governments will go ahead but there are there are people's will say no and therefore for such an important for such an import alteration of this when treaty we should have referendums in various countries. yeah absolutely mad mad mad mad mad mad again had that there's something i mean in order to know what's happening it's good if you have some knowledge about it when it comes to the least country to be fooled that you have the stability pact which

gave formerly that commission the right to impose fines on deuce countries that have two big deficits that was not done and you can see that one should have been more sort of eager in following the rules this is not something that was installed with the lisbon treaty that was existed in this debility pact and the stability pact was not deficient enough that something then when it comes to the national government's national go. men's have more power no in the least been treated than they had previously they can order through the city's new deal in order to have a seat at the service of those who have a very high regard to disable his aster's go ahead robert i mean go ahead robert it's good this is when treaty takes far more power away from national governments and any previous treaty to take away sixty sixty three areas of policy making from national control to e.u. control it is about creating all centralised if you really feel which is not

a good for you have listened to your facts you had ok stephanie you know what it is you are going to stephan go ahead if if you had listened to what they say because you don't listen to just talk that is that i said that national parliaments have more power now than they have before disabled pretty girls you know legislate the whole host of areas talked about galileo i haven't even played today you have on minister we have the army you list the national parliaments do not don't make most of their national guard in my limited hand cundall got an obviously a german study found that eighty four percent of the new legislation came from brussels national parliaments are becoming increasingly irrelevant as a result of the lisbon treaty me that those are the fact that. and when you put up so it is true you have to understand we were actually to not just national parliaments the national alright the national people you are the brits participate in the decision making in and the decision making on the lead is the tory process in bronson's you don't abstain or parties or single payer you hear the last word

harry gets the last word go ahead. i'm dealing with this every day national parliaments lose their influence because their governments come home saying we were against it but there was a majority in favor and therefore we were overruled and that leaves parliaments with no instruments to change the policy of their own governments because therefore i gentlemen i'm going to have to jump in here i do not see the trials and tribulations of the lisbon treaty many thanks to my guest today in stockholm amsterdam and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember crosstalk bulls. can. still.

in india oh geez availability in the movie joyce either to raise a movie that's

a great way to go to the grand imperial truly to tell us that. you can a let's. see don't need to go publicly and run this in the kennel was her turn to retreat. more riot police deployed in central moscow over fears of fresh violence as dimitri medvedev pledges swift punishment for those involved in last weekend's clashes. russia condemns north korea's attack on the south and urges pyongyang to abandon its nuclear activity. in russia controversial anti-drug campaign divides public opinion with authorities saying it's the only way to get across the message.

to him in moscow i'm good to be with you here on r t our top story president medvedev says police should use every means at their disposal to prosecute those behind saturday's riots a weekend rally commemorating a football fan who'd been killed turned into clashes with police and attacks on ethnic minorities on monday more riot police were deployed in central moscow over fears of the violence between rival groups could flare up again parties catarina it was their. police received reports and modern communications from the internet about a group of football fans who planned to meet a number of people from the north caucuses here in the very heart of the russian capital to basically find out their differences of course police decided that it is better to be safe. and saurian deployed a very large number of riot police all around them on your square to prevent any aggression like the clashes that we saw happen last week on saturday between

football fans and riot police we managed to talk to a rep.