well the. new the latest in science and technology from around the world. we've got the future covered. and you can. follow and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle embarrassing failure this is how many describe washington's most recent attempt to reach a peace settlement in the middle east is it time for the us to drop the pretense of being an honest broker and allow more neutral players to take its place. and you can. discuss the prospects for peace in the middle east i'm joined by omar barghouti in ramallah he is a founding committee member of the palestinian campaign for the academic and cultural

boycott of israel in jerusalem we cross to gil hoffman he is the chief political correspondent and analyst at the jerusalem post and in nablus we go to abdul sattar qassam he is a professor of political science at on the national university and another member of our cross talk team yell on the hunger for a gentleman cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in when you want to go i'd like to go to you first in jerusalem there's words being used the humiliation embarrassment failure they're all being attached to the recent american effort to broker a peace process there mitchell seems to have you know vague ideas how he wants to move forward i mean how much of a failure is this and or maybe we should just be rethinking the entire process because this year deadline when it was announced is hardly possible it's ludicrous actually. the americans did rethink the entire process and they really had to they had an approach that from the beginning was doomed to failure and that was to put pressure on israel in

a way that obama's predecessors didn't do and not put any pressure on the palestinian side and it didn't work is it made the palestinians climb up a tree that they haven't been able to come down the americans put pressure on israel to freeze construction. in the west bank for jews not for arabs and that didn't end up helping it didn't bring the palestinians to the negotiating table they decided they can just hold out for more pressure on israel why come to the negotiating table the word for negotiations in hebrew my solemn aton means give and take why come where you would have to give something and when you can just take and so what's happened is america two weeks ago they announced that they were going to give up that approach and now actually they can succeed where they haven't before and they lost a lot of time but now they're going to go back between the parties and try to bridge the gaps between them in a more serious way i'm actually a confident and optimistic now that the peace process can move forward after i was

depressed and passed a mystic for a long time before that ok all more fun go to you in the model how do you react to that i mean the united states has been we've heard this term peace process in the greater middle east for thirty years at least ok and a lot of people would say and i probably you would agree the palestinians haven't gotten much out of it. the policies haven't gotten anything out of it because these are not negotiations by any standard these are negate they negate palestinian rights they negate the very reference to international law and this is the key this is not about negotiation between two symmetric sides to equal sides one side is a colonial side colonizing another and the other is the oppressed side were not equivalent in this so when we say negotiations without reference without a vision to end justice to end said there colonialism and to have freedom for all these are not negotiations so the main issue here now is that the us is not an

honest broker has never been an honest broker but now israel and its lobby are flexing their muscles much more than before because they felt that obama might not be as servos as previous u.s. presidents he doesn't have the ideological background that is required to completely serve israeli colonial interests and apartheid interests so i think what's important is that to have reference to international law to human rights principles and that is that without ending the occupation ending israeli discrimination within israel against palestinian citizens and that of return for refugees there can never be a just peace i do what do you think about that i mean the united states seems to have tried just about everything possible and in obama's just been humiliated here i mean he's really had to rethink and go back to the drawing board and you know what is this palestinian supposed to think because i mean obviously the united states and israel very strong allies and that will that's there isn't going to that

isn't going to change here but i mean do the palestinians have any faith left in the in obama administration in the united states at all. while. it was not expected that the united states would do anything for the palestinians it would do so many things against the palestinians that's true so since the establishment of the authority we have been harmed a lot and the united states as i said is not broken they are not states and israel are allies and they are not states that not do what it has to do against israel they have to take measures against israel if they want the solution we see the united states immediately takes measures against arabs against muslims but against israel they don't take any measures and so far they have been with the pressure on the palestinians particularly because the palestinians are so much dependent and their food on the done it in countries and they do not decide how the money is

spent in the west bank and partying does so what the palestinians have to do we have to rid ourselves first of our leadership so many of our leaders actually puppets for the united states they cannot do on this thing they don't have an initiative they haven't been honest to the palestinian people so there are palestinians who have been through a little united states is it so we the people have to do something we have to rebuild our own soul see it is our own institutions as long as we remained in this situation with him in so weak i don't think that the united states would get about us or is it it will respond positively to a lot of the months ok gail a lot of you know we hear coming from the israeli government there isn't a partner at the table here but a lot of people would also say people studying the region for decades now is that the current government in ramallah for the palestinian authority is the most reasonable palestinian politicians that is ever come about in dealing with these

negotiations but netanyahu and other people in the government say he doesn't have a part. or is that if is that really fair actually not to me i was sat in washington now when the talks were launched a month ago and you are my partner and he said it to the entire world this night and now it's gone a really long way well when he was campaigning i covered his political campaign for prime minister he didn't say he was in favor of a palestinian state since becoming prime minister he has when he was campaigning and he said he would help out the jews living in the west bank and he hasn't at all he's frozen construction for them and he also campaigned on a policy of camp of helping out the palestinian people economically and that's the promise that he kept he wanted to work together with the palestinian government with salam fayyad with and who we consider is his partner to build up the us make economic plan give the people there hope for the future and that has succeeded

we've seen how they had eight and a half percent economic growth in the year two thousand and nine there are new statistics out about unemployment in the west bank being caught in the half kinds of new jobs that are opening up now and things are going well for the palestinians economically ok did you want to jump in there oh yes our economic situation has been deteriorating because most of the income comes from abroad we are not productive they have destroyed our productive military would want to produce any more because they want us to be completely dependent. coming from abroad particularly from will donate the countries and the united states this means that they want to dismantle the palestinians into individuals who are seeking to be at oconomowoc interests this is not fair this is not in a lot of own interest so if somebody sees that their current situation is improving

and that was then it does take it is it doesn't depend upon a strong economy infrastructure. i know it's at the palace so here goes on and on and go ahead ok the palestinians are not just those in the west bank i mean let's be honest here the palestinian people are those in the west bank those in gaza those inside israel as well as those in exile who are the majority of the palestinians are refugees in exile so when we're talking about the situation of the palestinians has improved this is very disingenuous the palestinians in gaza are facing very severe seach conditions that amount to acts of genocide according to some international law experts the palestinians in exile are denied completely all of their basic rights even in the west bank mr hoffman refers to the jews in the west bank these are not jews in the west bank these are colonial settlers their religious or ethnic identity is totally irrelevant according to the un according to the fourth geneva convention there illegally residing in the occupied west bank

this is their legal status we cannot talk about their rights because they are illegal to be here to start with when you think about that gil. i mean this again omar and a lot of other palestinian authority in the u.s. only two going to international law to resolve this go ahead. i'm fine with that because according to international law the west bank is disputed land of a tween forty and sixty seven when it was occupied by jordan the world did not recognize that occupation and its fate will be decided according to international law and negotiations and the palestinians haven't come to the negotiating table in order to have those negotiations over the last year and a half now i agree that the situation in gaza is different than it is in the west bank and that's because the hamas overthrew the rightful fatah leadership in the west bank and then the world is investing in the west bank and they're not in gaza and that's because when the hamas overthrew the palestinian leadership of the world

the quartet gave them a fair deal is for disarm the terrorists is for accept all they greenside in the past are is for recognizing the existence of the state of israel and they said no proving that they care more about destroying the state of israel they care about helping their own people now i believe that eventually there will be an election among the palestinians that was such to take place in either january two thousand and nine or january two thousand and ten here we are approaching january two thousand and eleven they still haven't set a date and there are reasons for that the americans didn't want the election to take place. when they do have an election will reunite them as i mentioned in gaza and the same foreign investment that's been. because i am for about some of that wealth that has been flowing into the west bank that's made the west bank thrive is going to be happening with gaza as well when the world will see that the money that they would invest wouldn't go toward terrorism against israelis or would go to help their own people which the hamas has been unwilling to do all right gentlemen we're

going to go to a short break and when we return we'll continue our discussion on middle east diplomacy stay with art. and. see. nature and discover its beauty. communicate with the wild. test yourself and become free. to. see what nature can give you. wealthy british scientists are told some.

of their. market financed scandals find out what's really happening to the global economy for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune in to cancer reports on our. first. welcome back to crossfire computers about to remind you we're talking about middle east power brokers.

but first let's see if russians believe in a lasting peace between the israelis and the palestinians mission failed there this remains polus to produce results in the middle east peace process however this has not stopped washington's to kickstart indirect told between the israelis and palestinians but the x. for a more and more skeptical about success some say it is time for other part is to step in the public opinion foundation also russians if there could be a last in peace between israelis and palestinians thirty four percent said that peace is quite possible and thirty two percent believe it's not with many adults in washington's ability to be a fair broker the americans still say they assume this is about pushing forward a peace agreement and laying their politicians for a future palestinian state back to peter ok before we went to the break amare i

think you wanted to jump in there what we're talking about is the conditions for negotiations because you said earlier in the program it's all about negations go ahead. yes another thing about the negations is that not only is their israeli government continuing with settling colonizing the occupied west bank while they're talking so soon enough there would be nothing absolutely nothing to talk about the palestinian so-called leadership is not really representative of the palestinian people it has no democratic mandate this must be a condition that those who speak on behalf of the palestinians those who can sign any agreement that's worth anything must be elected by the people so that palestinian so-called negotiators do not speak on behalf of the palestinians so these are really negations not just the negotiations how can there be any kind of negotiations or agreement if the leadership of the palestinian people don't speak for the people and at the same time hamas is barred from any kind of participation

in this process even though they are democratically elected. hamas won the election for parliament they did not defeat for the election for the presidency and i don't like the word coup so much what happened in gaza they literally overthrew the leadership they threw them off the top of buildings they don't want to talk to israel they want to destroy israel they fired thousands of rockets at israeli civilians and israel responded in a way that would kill a minimum number of civilians while targeting the hamas leadership and the terrorists that are hurting their own people and so it's true it is hard to negotiate when i will mohsin doesn't have much of a mandate it's and it's israel's army that's keeping him in power what's going on right now the whole goal of improving the west bank economically is that when they do have an election and they will that the people will choose moderates will choose people that want there to be a peace process the palestinian people deserve to have better leaders they had yasser arafat who was a palestinian leader who had the way but not the will and now they have i will

modernize the will but not the way they need someone who has those who can make a deal and when they have that i know that they'll find an israeli leadership no matter who's in their power in israel to see who is willing to go a long way toward the right times training to be able to bring a better day to all the people of the region go ahead omar go ahead. there's absolutely no one to make a good within israel you're talking about an ultra right wing government that has fascist elements who believe in ethnically cleansing their own citizens who happen to be non jewish and israel is shifting much faster towards fascism towards apartheid it's always been an apartheid and settler colonial state and now we're seeing fascist elements in the government itself openly calling for ethnic cleansing israel committed a huge massacre in gaza killing fourteen hundred people predominantly civilians destroyed the infrastructure universities schools mosques and so on and so forth the gold standard forth referred to israel's acts as acts of terror rising the population has worked tribes and possibly crimes against humanity so let's not

change this into whether the palestinians elect or not elect their leadership we are under settler colonial conditions under occupation and according to international law this cannot be sustained israeli settlers have to absolutely leave palestinians in israel deserve equal rights and our refugees deserve to return and to see reparations ok i did change gears a little bit here in two thousand and two there was a saudi peace plan and its outlines are very very each direct israel's to withdraw from two precincts the seven borders a palestinian state established on the west bank jerusalem shared goal and return to syria some token palestinian refugees returned or compensated their over five million of them in exchange the entire muslim world would recognize israel and normalize relations with the state in opening up a vast commercial market for israeli goods and the u.s. would guarantee israeli borders why can't that process be enacted why can't the region take care of its own problems and not relying so much on the united states.

you left out the second part of the plan the second part of the plan said that any palestinian who considers himself a refugee anywhere around the world would be allowed to come back to the final borders of the state of israel and not just to the palestinian state that would be built next door and now is unacceptable for the israeli leadership because you know you've got here in israel in an israeli democracy where you have arab serving in the government you have here five million jews and about two million arabs and if you have another six million arabs come then there's ocular be a jewish state anymore alongside the fifty seven muslim states there has to be a jewish state and so that's why any kind of deal that there's going to be you're going to have a right of return for palestinians to the final borders of the palestinian state that would be created while israel would continue to have a thriving arab minority there would not be a single jew in the arab state that would be created just like my me other arab states in the region and if that's not apartheid i don't know what is where israel

would continue to be a democracy now but the other part that you cited that the entire arab and muslim world will recognize israel and trade with israel and where do i sign well then what do you need if you could if these negotiations and say the right of return i mean jews have a right of return to israel can't there be some kind of negotiations where you would have the right of palestinians are or some form of compensation i mean that it's difficult to greed but could not be part of the negotiations well to two thousand and two plan is not is not that bad go ahead omar. yeah but this is this is not about you know what i'll allow or not allow this is again about international law refugees have a right to return this is not up to mr hoffman or anyone else this is according to international law jewish refugees of world war two had tried to return to their countries of origin. refugees in kosovo bosnia and so on every refugee has a right to return home there is nothing in international law that says any state can maintain its status as a race the state israel has no right to maintain an apartheid regime and say this

is a god given right and are refugees returning would change that there is nothing in international law that guarantees that any state should remain a racist hate neither should it be an exclusivist muslim state exclusive as a jewish state christian state a hindu state or any state it has to be a democratic state which believes in equal rights for its citizens israel currently is not it's an apartheid state gil. i'm very proud to be a citizen of a state where where we have arabs that are part of our government they are part of our supreme court an arab just one. unique on tast this is very much a democratic state in a sea of ananda democratic states in the region i wish my relatives had the right of return to iraq but they're not allowed there because they are jewish and there are thousands of jewish refugees from arab and muslim lands the same amount go ahead on american head and we found only we can agree on more of their i suppose my

jewish refugees. i would i would fully support the rights of jewish refugees to return to iraq yemen egypt or any other country that they originate from and to receive compensation for any lost properties as a human rights advocate i have to be totally consistent all refugees have a right to go home and to receive compensation for properties pillaged or misused or abused so i would support that's right to iraqi refugees jewish refugees of course and nablus if i go back to nablus here abdul what is if it's not going to be the two thousand and two saudi proposal there's no doubt there's deadlock right now what is there a third way is there another way here because it looks like the united states is completely caved in to israel it's terrified of the israeli lobby in the united states i mean these are not these this is not a a combination that's going to move it move forward for a peace that is least just for the palestinians. yes the problem is actually is

with the us it's not with the united states or with israel the arabs are insistent on remaining weak and the palestinians insisting resisting or remaining dependent upon the united states and the european countries that's a very big problem how would you regain your rights or be something in the international community if you are not strong enough if you do not feed yourself if you do not depend upon yourself that's the problem so the arabs no matter what they say no matter what the proposals they make nobody is going to listen to them and the palestinians have been making proposals that since one thousand sixty nine and nobody listens to them because they are not strong and we shouldn't depend on the up on international blow you know international no could not be enforced unless you are powerful or a strong enough so as to enforce the law but those who are weak if they are not receiving any kind of near see it from the strong countries they are not going to

receive anything and this is the problem with the arab proposal the saudi proposal two thousand to even refused to discuss the proposal because it's where it's where this because those who issued this proposal do not have. they are not strong enough to force it in the international community or in the international or in the united nations or whatever and israel and the united states do not care about the arabs all the palestinians and we have also to be clear that most of the arab. are actually puppets do not decide for themselves they do not have a free political will so how would we discuss something on the negotiating table it is meaningless now to be to negotiate under. any are going to jump in because we're almost out of time go ahead. ok yeah i think it's

a very important issue to consider that there are other players coming into the game not just russia the e.u. also china increasingly india south africa latin america brazil especially and so on it is no longer. much any quarrel where you have the us completely in control it's changing it's becoming again a multilateral world and i think this will affect the power game that we're facing currently we're facing israel completely totally supported by the us and this is a gentleman you know how to jump in here when they run out of time maybe maybe a multilateral world is the solution to the conflict there many thanks to my guest today in ramallah jerusalem and now please and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time remember crosstalk. in

india.

the grand imperial. treat. on the streets following sunday's presidential election. were also injured. opposition supporters. gathered. to protest. seemingly fourth consecutive. u.s. media. antiterrorism crusade. of migrants from poor central asian states. the grass is always greener.

welcome to the program. has been gripped with violence opposition supporters took to the streets to protest against the presidential election official results gave the country's incumbent. almost eighty percent of the vote his opponents believe the polls rigged it's the fourth consecutive victory for the president after sixteen years in power more than one hundred protesters were detained following. police officers under the school's. protest heartfelt there were thousands of people here.