hello and welcome to cross talk i'm carol about the new exit is christians leaving the holy land christians have lived in historic palestine since the advent of christianity alongside muslims and jews now there are growing concerns the christian community will soon disappear. and. to discuss the fate of christians in palestine i'm joined by alex out while in jerusalem he is a pastor of the east jerusalem baptist church and a professor at bethlehem bible college also in jerusalem we have david parsons he's a media and public relations officer with the international christian embassy jerusalem and in haifa we go to daphne simponi she's a professor of modern middle east history at technion israel's institute of technology and another member of our cross talk team on the hunger or at cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want alex i'd like to go to

you over the last sixty years or so we've seen the christian population of what is the legal borders of israel and the the west bank and gaza drop significantly there are different estimates there from one in twenty were there in the population was christian. at the advent of the israeli state and first some estimates now it's around two percent to take your numbers it's still going down dramatically what is the single most important reason why chris the christian population has diminished so much in palestine. would say. political and income think i'm sure it would be like to the shows found themselves in go ahead alex. yes the economic and the political situation that the palestinian christians found them selves in is the main reason why they left the holy land and why they are leaving the. people leave their

country and go to another country because they are not comfortable either politically or religiously but economically in the country that they leave and so they looking for a better life somewhere else ok alex if i can to stay with you you were born in jerusalem right yes i was born in jerusalem in one nine hundred forty six and the christian community in the holy land at that time was about one fifth of the population today it is less than two percent maybe one point two percent so the there has been a drastic decline in the christian population in the holy land since i was born ok so in you're an israeli citizen correct. nor palestinian by birth i was born in jerusalem before the creation of the state of israel born in jerusalem but. i don't have citizenship in the state of israel i

live here as an international person ok being born in jerusalem in you're an international person if i could go to daphne in your opinion what is the biggest porton reason why we see such a diminished. christian community in palestine now is it our people discriminated against in your opinion and who discriminates against them do the israelis really want to have a christian community amongst them amongst them. oh you have asked me several questions but let me first say in corrective information that to alex has just. maintained it's true that even in jerusalem itself it these at its peak a in the late him and the story period the christians form about twenty percent of the jerusalemites in arab population however it's not correct as

for the whole of mandatory palestine now there is a difference in. the reserves course between the state of israel a jerusalem jerusalem east jerusalem and the palestinian authority and it's a little bit misleading to speak about the drop of percentages a and translate that into a drop of figure is a if i can speak for a state of israeli excluding the occupied territories a. then a although the percentage of the christians has been dropping it's not due to a there and drop in absolute figures in absolute figures. the christians have expanded however a proportionally to other groups to

a frame of course jews are but in the arab sector most leans. there and you to a. i'm not saying that there is no immigration there isn't a gratian but there are other factors as well there is a lower birth rate and. this is also is something that is very significant and explains why there is a drop in percentage but i wouldn't say that the reason drop in. figures on the contrary ok i. pointed out ok david i'd like to go to you when the when the christian communities of israel in the occupied territories get in the news unfortunately it's for maybe reasons that you wouldn't be happy about it vandalization church is the burning of new testaments. there is i came across a material that a catholic priest i think it is he said that catholics and priests and nuns get

used to being spat at on a regular basis this comes into the news i. don't know if it gets enough circulation in the in like the united states but i mean these are pieces of news that show that that christians are not very well well not welcomed in in israel and really want them to leave i mean when they when we see these we kind of reports you find them to be extreme or of these common acts of behavior. well i think we had i did a bit on this one as a plane as a david go ahead and i think we have to admit that the small christian community here in the holy land is it squeezed between a. jewish large jewish majority in the state of israel and a large even larger muslim majority ninety eight percent of the palestinians are muslim and so they don't have much power within either. government and therefore sometimes they fall prey i think on the israeli

side it's more in the order of societal harassment nothing really government oriented on the palestinian side some of the harassment is going over into persecution and with no real recourse to governmental means to try to hold people particularly radical muslims accountable for some of the acts there are people arrested whenever they try to. torture a church in israel the same does not happen in the palestinian authority and peter i think to understand this whole issue of this example in christian population here in the holy land over the last sixty years you have to look at the entire middle east region where in every single country the christian population is dropping and much in the same ratio as it is here in the holy

land and israel actually stands out as dafna pointed out as the only country where the christian population has grown in real terms and therefore you when you try and a dignified the reason christians are leaving the entire holy land i think the primary culprit is radical islam ok aleksey a lack of governments arab governments trying to address alex he said you want to jump in there go right ahead. well there is a radical islam in many countries but. in palestine you cannot accuse the decline of christianity on radical islam we have a bible college in bethlehem and. we truly territory anyone for years and we haven't. got any alex going yes i'm talking to the history in general for thirty one years we existed in bethlehem we have never once

been attacked by a radical islam generally speaking i'm not talking about all the other countries but i'm talking about a dinner and a senior and all right eric let. me know if i am not exaggerating telling you the truth the truth is chris shims in the palestinian territories don't have systematic persecution. i work in the palestinian territories i go every day to bethlehem and i said in bethlehem and i said we ensure it was selim and i'm telling from furthest. experience fairness life experience we are not being persecuted by muslims in the best claim area sometimes there are conflicts between muslims and christians but mainly because of greed maybe because of many different things because we are a minority in

a big islamic majority but we are not persecuted i go to the west bank i'm not afraid of my muslim brothers and sisters they treat me with daughter respect and i treat them with total respect and this is that he and i t. daphne you want to jump in there go ahead daphne but isn't there isn't there any enforcement and attempt to enforce. of behavioral way of life but they could only. clear not. christian women in the outer. garments see that yes but do you see. and experience that do you want to respond to that. we are not

persecuting i would i would definitely. yeah i didn't use i didn't i know i would never use the word persecution is a very strong word however i would there is a difference between relationship in the educated. upper middle class in universities and so forth on the one hand and the behavior of the lower classes. i would even use the word mama. whenever there is some event or a sound incitement. may find attacks on christians connecting them. right now we're going to go ashore a i sang that and after a short break we'll continue our discussion a christian in palestine stay with. you

. it's the secret incursion into the country. it's the invasion by means of. tradition the language the jello you spent the first day copied could be done. and culture. the thing is that the have the dozens are still unaware of what's going on in their land from the last year much. like. i don't know anything about them alaska the great. on our cheap. it came here dr swines policeman's wives ministers why i just prayed.

if you didn't find me if i could just live through the night that i would get my kids out of here because i knew that what was going to happen was that he was going to kill me many victims don't understand that domestic violence includes verbal abuse psychological abuse physical abuse and sexual abuse at least four million women are affected by abuse every year those are my only two options that i saw that either i'm going to kill him or me in jail or he's going to kill it says. welcome back to rostock i remind you we're talking about the exodus of christians

from dallas. but first let's see what russians associate with jerusalem. leaving their birthplace bush chanting has its origin in the middle east and used to be the region's major religion one significant christian communities are now shrinking to miniscule enclaves the public opinion foundation also russians what they associate with jerusalem the hall the city of judaism christianity and islam twenty six percent of the respondents cited christianity ninety percent holy places fourteen percent associated this it would do while a slam and judaism was cited only by two percent of the respondents each nevertheless the fact remains and christian is now on retreat in the middle east took her ok i'd like to go back to david here david in the beginning of the program

we heard a comment that the one of the reasons for the exit is of christians is because of islamic fundamentalism and extremism but there would be people who would make the claim that there is. religious fundamentalism extremism on the on the jewish side in marginalizing christians as well getting stuck in the middle is this and or maybe just more gentle the polarization of attitudes regarding religion is this squeezing christians out because they don't feel as we heard early in the program don't feel particularly comfortable in the muslim community and they don't feel particularly comfortable anymore in the jewish community is you know it's the issue of polarization of religion and i guess where it meets politics. well i i'm not going to pretend that the situation is perfect for christians within israel but you don't see the exodus of christians from israel like you do from the palestinian areas or from iraq right now or from lebanon on even the

a gyptian coptic ancient ten or eleven million people christians in egypt they can't even build a church without permission and when they try to there's riots in the christians get shot and no one is held accountable for shooting them so it's a problem throughout the middle east but i think that you know i as an outside christian i have been living here for thirteen years i've been visiting israel the holy land since one thousand nine hundred two been to bethlehem many many times and i have to say i've learned to have a lot of respect for the native arab christians in the palestinian areas throughout the middle east and what they've had to endure through centuries and centuries of living as second class citizens in a muslim majority and this all predates the jewish returned to the land and the question is how did they maintain

a presence here and only start leaving in the last one hundred years and i've talked to many bethlehem bethlehem christians some of the old timers who remember the british mandate even the jordanian occupation of bethlehem then the israeli what they would call the occupation and now under the palestinian authority that after they had four sovereigns over them in the last sixty years or so the rate of exodus has been just about the same in the whole time so you really can't say that israelis are israeli policy some sort of official policy chasing christians out of the holy land it's wrong the conflict itself between jewish nationalists. palestinian nationalism that is a big corporate ok alan said big corporate i think alex would i would agree with him. i think i think the problem is that the christian see no economic future

ok alex go ahead. i i agree with many of the things that david have mentioned but listen to the facts for example i am a christian i was born in jerusalem in one nine hundred forty six i left to study abroad i went to europe and united states to study well when i came back to this country there's really government told me you are no more a citizen of this land so right now i live in jerusalem with an american passport with a visa in an american passport i cannot live as a palestinian in my country because i am not covered with the law for return the law of return covers jewish people only so if you are to question you leave the country to study or you leave the country to work you are in danger of losing

their right to come back to your country and live here as it citizen now this is a policy this is not just you know an idea or a you know a passing thought my children who were also born in jerusalem cannot come and live in jerusalem because wouldn't because i am an american citizen they took their medic and citizenship even though i'm a palestinian there are palestinians but they cannot live in israel or in the palestinian territories because is what i am has the right to accept or reject people to live in the palestinian territories saw the law three terror and makes it difficult for christians who leave the country for study forward for any reason to come back and regain their citizenship in the holy land so this is what happened to me not only to me and my children i have three brothers and three sisters they live

. in the united states and in europe you go and ask each of them why are you living in europe or in the united states and they will tell you because they cannot make situation because of the political situation that was created as that is out of the creation of the state of his that i am and they will also tell you because you will not allow them to come back here and live as citizens that he ality is israel does not want christians to live in the jerusalem area their reality is that many jews today in israel don't want to live among palestinians whether they are muslims or christians this is the truth and sometimes we try to ignore this truth we try to ignore this city alethea but there is a lot of criticism against christians and muslims in the state of israel today ok daphne do you want to reply to that there's a lot of racism against christians and muslims in this state of israel today do you

agree or disagree with what you just heard. ok. again i must say that there is a big difference in between a the palestinians in jerusalem that after sixty seven when he tours possibly to get to. citizenship the north want to eat and then they got a status of permanent citizen and the result is that that these really government does not expand these are any citizenship and they are in a difficult situation in jerusalem but it is only in east jerusalem only israeli citizens. from forty eight the establishment of the state of israel don't have any such program as was described by alex it's only the unique situation

of a christians in general and palestinians in east jerusalem as for racism in. my rules who can go or who can go on what of the worst variant. any palestinian state is that over the years they are you fight on in this. way ok fine you said as a return to these years years so is it a yes then though if i were given all of my time to the us then i. could go this is this is this is not the state of israel this is not the state of israel this is the occupied territories and i dream of the struggle in the. wrong times israel jewel it won't come. come out. it's due to the comfortable. with. each other david go ahead go

ahead john. if alec if alex wanted palestinian palestinians said he could have it he is talking about a unique situation why christians are leaving but the handful there are trying to come back and then it's a policy in a million christians and it is wrong for him to be deceitful and think that it's not right no no look this it's not a policy a christian is it and these two of left the land and the exempt are separate in the you lose your rights as to be a jerusalem all right residency all right david david that's why i go to those you would say to folks i go to you know i want to ask david david david i mean did what is really the difference then i mean it's just the israeli state and if we go from what daphne had to say i think i mean if it's unique or not i mean these really state wants jerusalem all of jerusalem to be jewish that's one of the high priority

for them they don't want to have other religious groups living there in jerusalem would you agree or disagree with that because a lot of them would say i'd lot of people to go ahead. look i'd have to disagree with that jerusalem as a whole has around seven hundred fifty thousand people there are around in east jerusalem the former area that was occupied by jordan captured by israel in sixty seven around three hundred around four hundred thousand there are around two hundred thousand arabs two hundred thousand jews and the population of both have been steadily growing and so the arab population jerusalem has been growing if there was a policy to chase them out or whatever there has been a problem with arabs moving abroad and they are told if you leave if you leave i believe for more than seventy years if you lose your reservations because they were an awful citizenship of plea please alex the arabs of east jerusalem were offered this and show up as daphne noted after sixty seven very few take it once in

a while when they hear them is about to get be given away to the palestinian authority will see the line grow outside the interior minister to apply for india for a huge israeli citizenship of us but there's not a policy they trying to chase out christians. yes there is if you don't know it if you are not aware of this hypocrisy come along with me and i will have you interviews so many palestinians who wish to live in jerusalem but cannot because of discrimination no israel does right but i suppose i'm going to have to just finally here and run out every time we've run out of time many thanks to my guests today in haifa and in jerusalem and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cross talk rules. if you. want

to.

rush is. concentrating. on their all the mulling over the points of the senate's resolution. dmitri medvedev said the season's greetings across the atlantic and encourages russia's opposition parties to show some competition as he wraps up the year of being quizzed by a leading t.v. . lackey ed lithuania give each other

a christmas roasting and challenging each other over who was first to invent the festive decorated tree. and the government may raise billions of dollars in taxes from russian companies i'll have more on that in about twenty minutes time. pm in moscow i match reza good to be with you here on r t our top story russia's lawmakers have launched their debates on ratifying the nuclear arms reduction treaty with the u.s. after it won backing in the u.s. senate the russian parliament is set to approve the deal in the new year and what's being hailed as a diplomatic victory by presidents medvedev and obama. is across what's happening in moscow joins us live so it's still very much a mood of optimism in the among the deputies as.