hello and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle the new exit is christians leaving the holy land christians have lived in historic palestine since the advent of christianity alongside muslims and jews now there are growing concerns the christian community will soon disappear. to. discuss the fate of christians in palestine i'm joined by alex out why in jerusalem he is a pastor of the east jerusalem baptist church and a professor at bethlehem bible college also in jerusalem we have david parsons he's a media and public relations officer with the international christian embassy jerusalem and in haifa we go to daphne simponi she's a professor of modern middle east history at technion israel's institute of technology and another member of our cross talk team you know on the hunger for

a cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want alex i'd like to go to you over the last sixty years or so we've seen the christian population of what is the legal borders of israel and the the west bank and gaza drop significantly there are different estimates there from one in twenty were there in the population was christian. at the advent of the israeli state and first some estimates now it's around two percent to take your numbers it's still going down dramatically what is the single most important reason why christe the christian population has diminished so much in palestine. you would say. political and. security would like to be shows found themselves in go ahead alex. yes the economic and the political situation that the palestinian christians found him in is the main reason why they left the

holy land and why they are leaving the. people leave the country and go to another country because they are not comfortable either politically or religiously but economically in the country that they leave and so they looking for a better life somewhere else ok alex if i can to stay with you you were born in jerusalem right yes i was born in jerusalem in one nine hundred forty six and the christian community in the holy land at that time was about one fifth of the population today it is less than two percent maybe one point two percent so the there has been a drastic decline in the christian population in the holy land since i was born ok so you're an israeli citizen correct. nor palestinian by birth i was born in jerusalem before the creation of the state of israel born in jerusalem but. i don't have citizenship in the state of israel i

live here as an international person ok being born in jerusalem in you're an international person if i could go to daphne in your opinion what is the biggest porton reason why we see such a diminished. communal christian community in palestine now is it are people discriminated against in your opinion and who discriminates against them do the israelis really want to have a christian community amongst them amongst them. oh you have asked me several questions but let me first say. corrective information that alex has just. maintained it's true that even in jerusalem itself it these at its peak a in the late him and the story period the christians form about twenty percent of the jerusalemites a population however it's not correct as for the whole of

mandatory palestine now there is a difference in. the reserves course between the state of israel in jerusalem jerusalem east jerusalem and the palestinian authority and it's a little bit misleading to speak about the drop of percentages a way and translate that into a drop of figures if i can speak for a state of israel excluding the occupied territories a. then i am also the percentage of the christians has been dropping it's not due to a there and drop in absolute figures in absolute figures. the christians have expanded however a proportionally to other groups too a of course jews are but in the arab sector

are mostly ngs. there and you to a. i'm not saying that there is no immigration the reason you gratian but there are other factors as well the reason a lower birth rates and. this is also will is something that is very significant and explains why there is a drop in percentage but i wouldn't say that the reason drop in. figures on the contrary ok i will. point out ok david i'd like to go to you when the when the christian communities of israel in the occupied territories get in the news unfortunately it's for maybe reasons that you wouldn't be happy about it vandalization church is the burning of new testaments. there is a came across the material that a catholic priest i think it is he said that catholics and priests and nuns get

used to being spat at on a regular basis this comes into the news i. don't know if it gets enough circulation in the in like the united states but i mean these are pieces of news that show that that christians are not very well well not welcomed in in israel and really want them to leave i mean when they when we see these we kind of reports that you find them to be extreme or these common acts of behavior. i did a bit on this one as saying they don't think there's any david go ahead and i think we have to admit that the small christian community here in the holy land is squeezed between a. jewish large jewish majority in the state of israel and a large even larger muslim majority ninety eight percent of the palestinians are muslim and so they don't have much power within either. government and therefore sometimes they fall prey i think on the israeli

side it's more in the order of societal harassment nothing really government oriented on the palestinian side some of the harassment is going over into persecution and with no real recourse to governmental means to try to hold people particularly radical muslims accountable for some of the acts there are people arrested whenever they try to. torture a church in israel the same does not happen in the palestinian authority and peter i think to understand this whole issue of this is going on in christian population here in the holy land over the last sixty years you have to look at the entire middle east region where in every single country the christian population is dropping and much in the same bracieux as it is here in the holy

land and israel actually stands out as dafna pointed out as the only country where the christian population has grown in real terms and therefore you when you try and adin a five the reason christians are leaving the entire holy land i think the primary culprit is radical islam ok aleksey a lack of governments arab governments trying to address alex he said you want to jump in there go right ahead. well there is a radical islam in many countries but. in palestine you cannot accuse the clone of christianity on radical islam we have a bible college in bethlehem and. territory one for years and we have to go and how it's going and yes i'm talking. history

in general for thirty one years we existed in bethlehem we have never once been attacked by a radical islam generally speaking i'm not talking about all the other countries but i'm talking about the head of the union right terry let. me know if i am not exaggerating telling you the truth the truth is chris shims independence sydney and territory is don't have systematic persecution. i work in the palestinian territories i go every day to bethlehem and i said in bethlehem and i said and sure it was selim and i'm telling from first. experience fairness life experience we are not be persecuted by muslims in the best claim area sometimes there are conflicts between muslims and christians but mainly because of greed maybe because of many different things because we are a minority in

a big islam make a majority but we are not persecuted i go to the west bank i'm not afraid of my muslim brothers and sisters they treat me with daughter respect and i treat them with total respect and this is that he and i t. daphne want to jump in there go ahead daphne but isn't there isn't there any enforcement and attempt to enforce. of behavioral way of life but they clearly. are not. listen condition women in the latter. are just irish. they are coming to see come out and say that's invested heavily in his friend. come and see that yes but you see i lived there i want to tell you and i just

hand experience that do you want to respond to that. we are not persecuted i would i would definitely. yeah i didn't do i didn't i know i would never use the word persecute persecution is a very strong word however i would there is a difference between a relationship in the educated. upper middle class in the universities and so forth on the one hand and the behavior of the lower classes. i would even use the word. whenever there is some event or a sounding incitement. may find attacks on christians connecting them. being right now we're going to go ashore and i sang that and after a short break we'll continue our discussion of christians in palestine stay with.

incursion into the country. tradition the language. beat the beat. culture. the had the dems are still unaware of what's going on and there are still asking much. like. the great.

would be so much brighter. from plans to. meet. don't come. cheap. welcome back to rostock i'd like to remind you we're talking about the exodus of christians from house. but first let's see what russians associate with jerusalem leaving their birthplace

christianity has its origin in the middle east and used to be the region's major religion one significant christian communities are now shrinking to miniscule enclaves the public opinion foundation also gresham's what they associate with jerusalem the hall a city of judaism christianity and islam twenty six percent of the respondents cited christianity ninety percent holy places forty percent associated this it with jews while the slab and judaism all sided only by two percent of the respondents each never the less the fact remains and christian is now on retreat in the middle east being took. ok i'd like to go back to david here david in the beginning of the program we heard a comment that the one of the reasons for the exit is of christians is because of islamic fundamentalism and extremism but there would be people who would make the

claim that there is. religious fundamentalism extremism on the on the jewish side and marginalizing christians as well getting stuck in the middle is this or maybe just more gentle the polarization of attitudes regarding religion is this squeezing christians out because they don't feel as we heard early in the program don't feel particularly comfortable in the muslim community and they don't feel particularly comfortable anymore and the jewish community is you know it's the issue of polarization of religion and i guess where it meets politics. well i i'm not going to pretend that the situation is perfect for christians within israel but you don't see the exodus of christians from israel like you do from the palestinian areas or from iraq right now or from lebanon on even the a gyptian coptic ancient ten or eleven million people christians in egypt they can't even build a church without permission and when they try to there's riots in the christians

get shot and no one is held accountable for shooting them so it's a problem throughout the middle east but i think that you know i as an outside christian i have been living here for thirteen years i've been visiting israel the holy land since one thousand nine hundred two been to bethlehem many many times and i have to say i've learned to have a lot of respect for the native arab christians in the palestinian areas throughout the middle east and what they've had to endure through centuries and centuries of living as second class citizens in a muslim majority and this all predates the jewish return to the land and the question is how did they maintain a presence here and only start leaving in the last one hundred years and i've talked to many bethlehem bethlehem christians that some of the old timers who

remember the british mandate even the jordanian occupation of bethlehem then the israeli what they would call the occupation and now under the palestinian authority that after they had four sovereigns over them in the last sixty years or so the rate of exodus has been just about the same in the whole time so you really can't say that israelis are israeli policy some sort of official policy chasing christians out of the holy land it's wrong the conflict itself between jewish nationalists. palestinian nationalism that is a big corporate ok alex i don't have big corporate i think alex would i don't agree with him. john but i think i think the problem is that the christian see no economic future ok alex go ahead. i i agree with many of the things that david have mentioned but listen to the facts for example i am

a christian i was born in jerusalem in one nine hundred forty six i left to study abroad i went to europe and you know i see a society well when i came back to this country there's really government told me you are no more a citizen of this land so right now i live in jerusalem with an american passport with a visa in an american passport i cannot live as a palestinian in my country because i am not covered with the law for return the law of return covers jewish people only so if you are to create a show you leave the country to study or you leave the country to work you are in danger of losing their right to come back to your country and live here as it citizen now this is a policy this is not just you know an idea or you know

a passing thought my children who are also born in jerusalem cannot come and live in jerusalem because wouldn't because i am an american citizen they took their medic and citizenship even though i'm a palestinian there are palestinians but they cannot live in is that i will order in the palestinian territories because is what i am has the right to accept or reject people to live in the palestinian territories saw the law three trn makes it difficult for christians who leave the country for study forward for any reason to come back and regain their citizenship in the holy land so this is what happened to me not only to me and my children i have three brothers and three sisters they live. the united states and in europe you go and ask each of them why are you living in europe or in the united states and they will tell you because

they cannot mix it your way ship because of the political situation that was created as that is out of the creation of the state of affairs that i am and they will also tell you because you will not allow them to come back here and live as citizens that he ality is israel does not want christians to live in the jerusalem area their reality is that many jews today in israel don't want to live among palestinians whether they are muslims or christians this is the truth and sometimes we try to ignore this truth we try to ignore this city alethea but there is a lot of racism against christians and muslims in the state of israel today ok gaffney do you want to reply to that there's a lot of racism against christians and muslims in this state of israel today do you agree or disagree with what you just heard. ok. again

i must say that there is a big difference in between the palestinians in jerusalem that after sixty seven when he tours possibly to get to. citizenship the not wanting and then they got a status of permanent citizen and the result is that that these really government does not expand these are any citizenship and they are in a difficult situation in jerusalem but it is only in east jerusalem all israeli citizens. from forty eight the establishment of the state of israel don't have any such problem as was described by alex it's only the unique situation of a christians in general and palestinians in east jerusalem as for racism in the easiest for you i don't know. who can go or who

can go out of the whispering and the palestinian state is that i'm going to argue for my own in this. is that ok fine i said as a return to these years yes so is it a yes then though if i were to be on my todo list and i. could go this is this is this is not the state of israel this is not the state of israel this is the occupied territories and i had to remove the. wrong limbs israel the jewel it won't come. come out. due to the conflict. with. each other david go ahead go ahead jeff. if alec if alex wanted palestinian palestinians said he could have it he is talking about

a unique situation why christians are leaving but the handful they're trying to come back and then it's a policy in a million christians and it is wrong for him to be deceitful and think that it's not right no no look this it's not a policy a do you christians it's an end in the indians who of left the land and. it's you lose your rights to be a jerusalem all right residency all right david david that's what he's going to build he would say to folks i go to you i want to ask david david david i mean did what is really the difference then i mean it's just the israeli state and if we go from what daphne had to say i think if it's unique or not i mean these really state wants to slim all of jerusalem to be jewish that's one of the high priority for them they don't want to have other religious groups living there in jerusalem would you agree or disagree with that because a lot of them would say i'd lot of people to go ahead. look i'd have to disagree

with that jerusalem as a whole has around seven hundred and fifty thousand people there are around in east jerusalem the former area that was occupied by jordan captured by israel in sixty seven around three hundred around four hundred thousand there are around two hundred thousand arabs two hundred thousand jews and the population of both have been steadily growing and so the arab population jerusalem is when growing if there was a policy to chase them out or whatever there has been a problem with arabs moving abroad and they are told if you leave if you leave i believe for more than seventy years if you lose your residence is because they weren't offered citizenship plea please the arabs of east jerusalem were offered as a certain ship as daphne noted after sixty seven very few take it once in a while when they hear them is about to get be given away to the palestinian authority will see the line grow outside the interior minister to apply for

a huge israeli citizenship of us. trying to chase out christians float. yes there is if you don't know if you'd thought i'm not aware of this hypocrisy come along with me and i will have you interviews so many palestinians who wish to live in jerusalem but cannot because of this could mean they should know israel does not look all right close i'm going to have to just totally nearly run out every time we've run out of time many thanks to my guests today in haifa and in jerusalem and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cross talk rules. and.

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world war two books. of victory nineteen forty five don't auntie dot com. for. the. first. broadcasting live from our studios in some cases are you with us the russian parliament is a step closer to passing the new strategic arms reduction pact with america but conflicting points made in the u.s. senate's resolution hold up it's likely ratification till the new year. from russia's political system to the arms reduction deal with the u.s. . wraps up the year in an interview with the country's top executives. and season's greetings for all you celebrating christmas goodies marked all over

the world but for many russians christmas day will come two weeks time because of a different calendar. next we're off to one corner of the united states where it's russian roots are still very much in evidence. once it was a part of russian territory there are still reminders to this day children wearing russian national costumes people having russian names and many orthodox churches are standing here but more than one hundred forty years ago it became the u.s. territory though some americans still don't know about. the still asking no idea about. like nothing i don't know anything about that alaska it's called. it was called a box of ice a polar bear and while russia the language.