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well so i don't kowtow to your ability to. return in time hotels in the. available in the resort and spa. welcome back here with r t and these are the top stories for russian tycoon me how to copy away to his sentence after he was convicted of stealing oil and laundering profits is the second trial for holocaust gay who is already serving time for tax evasion and fraud. the u.s. federal data has hit its highest level in over sixty years but as education and health care suffer a major cuts war funding remains immune. the bank of moscow is accused of falling foul of the law for longer and billions allegedly pocketed by the x. mayor's wife the bank is suspected of approving a major loan to

a dummy company which used the money to buy land. and a new wave of anti-semitism seems to be gaining momentum around the world next peter lavelle and he's crossed all gas debate whether radicalized islam or israel's own policies are to. live with. what makes a big splash in the world of. what turns it science into products they don't understand oh he's he's got he followed russian leaders to egypt bidders abroad and their big break through back. sunlight on stone on technology update here. we. cover.

hello and welcome to cross talk i'm peter all about anti-semitism is nothing new to the world and it's undeniable that it exists today however how should anti-semitism be defined and by whom. to discuss the uses and abuses of anti-semitism i'm joined by norman finkelstein in new york he's a political scientist and author in washington we go to jeff her he is a professor of modern european history at the university of maryland and in san francisco we cross to charles small he is the director of the yale initiative for the interdisciplinary study of anti-semitism and another member of our cross talk team yell on the hunger all right gentlemen cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump any time you want and i don't want to be filibustering first i'd like

to go to you charles in san francisco we hear a lot about the new anti-semitism today what is the new anti-semitism and how pervasive is it so i would say in a nutshell the new anti-semitism is an amalgamation of the different forms or strands of anti-semitism historically there is an element that is religious based that comes from the past there's also anti semitism to in some places that are still sort of biologically determined the racist type of anti-semitism and i think that the new anti-semitism really has as its focus the demonization and the deal with them as a sion of israel and there's a correlation between the two i did an article with a colleague edward copland and we showed we interviewed five thousand europeans in ten countries and there's a very powerful correlation between classical anti semitism how jews do in business and whether they integrate or stick to themselves questions along those lines the old. the summit ism and then we did

a criteria that we called israel bashing extreme views of israel israel's an apartheid state and the like and we found that the people who have very strong views on israel that we called israel busters in our study in the in our criteria of the answer five questions out of seven we would be considered israel busters of the population there fifty six but more likely or thirteen times more likely than the average population to be anti semitic in the classical sense as well so there's a strong correlation between the two those differences people who criticize israel are not necessarily anti semitic but there is a correlation that's off the charts if you will ok norman if i can go to you and you're an expert on this you wrote a book called beyond just on the misuses of anti-semitism in the abusive history would you agree with what charles had to say about what anti-semitism is today and how pervasive it pervasive biddies. well the important facts about the new when the semitism as it's called is that it's neither new nor this i have

anything to do with anti semitism every time israel faces a public relations debacle or comes under international pressure to settle the conflict with the palestinians diplomatically they allege that there is a new anti semitism so in the nineteen seventies the head of the anti-defamation league arnold forster he wrote the book the title was the new anti semitism. in the one nine hundred eighty s. then head of the anti-defamation league nathan perlmutter he wrote a book called the real anti semitism in which he said there was a new anti semitism in the early two thousand so when israel came under international pressure because of the repression of the palestinians during the second intifada there was again a whole slew of books and titled the new anti semitism the head of the a.d.l. now the anti-defamation league abraham foxman he wrote

a book called never again the new anti semitism and after israel's nasser occur in gaza and the bloodbath in the mavi marmara the freedom flotilla once again we're hearing these claims about a new anti semitism and we're seeing this vast production of books many of them running to about a thousand pages alleging a new anti semitism the purpose of this is pretty straightforward first of all to turn the perpetrator namely israel into the victim the victim of anti semitism and secondly to discredit all of israel's critics as being anti semitic so as the very centrist israeli columnist you know mark is he put a few weeks ago in harvard's newspaper he said of patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels that anti semitism is the last refuge of occupiers

israel is an occupier and uses anti semitism in order to discredit critics of the occupation ok jeff jeffrey do you agree with that little israel uses anti-semitism to discredit its enemies or what he defines as its enemies go ahead i can't think of a single thing that norman finkelstein just said that i think that i either agree with or that is true but we are. rather than respond to what he just said i'd like to make a point about. recent historical scholarship. there has been a shift in the center of gravity of anti-semitism globally from its historic roots in europe to the middle east. the old anti semitism was was a link to a radicalization of christianity and was inseparable from european fascism and now

it's the ism beginning in the middle of the twentieth century before the state of israel was founded during the rise of naziism and fascism in europe of cultural fusion began to take place between conspiracy theories in europe. and. an emerging new tradition called islamism not islam but islamism. which which interpreted the religion of islam as an inherently anti semitic religion and this is the new quality of anti-semitism in the world today found in the beliefs and actions of organizations such as hamas hezbollah are al-qaeda and most importantly the government of iran. the. the essence of the new anti semitism is that the state of israel exists in order to destroy islam. and that the solution to the middle east problem is the destruction of the state of

israel four members of hamas the government of iran there is no distinction between anti zionism and hatred of the jews which they parade publicly again and again for all who are willing to read and see so charles i mean i have to go back to something that would normally have to say so israel's foreign policy or our paris is proscar jump in norman go ahead. no that it was i was doing business to jump in the crosstalk rose go ahead bormann go ahead. i would be happy to answer where jeff has to say and i will in the moment but i would like to put a question to him just said that everything i said was not true so i would be curious to know if you can cite exactly which statements of mine were not true jeff would you like to reply to the description can give you even your majesty directly go ahead. now reply yes or go ahead norman finkelstein referring to

israel's massacre in gaza this is a blatant falsehood. the there is no country in the history of the world. that attempted to defeat terrorists by sending several hundred thousand telephone calls to residents of apartment buildings in an occupied area or an area under attack warning them of attacks to come to describe this as a massacre is false the notion that israel is the perpetrator here is also something that norman finkelstein and others have repeated year after year there is a solution to the israeli palestinian problem it is simply a palestinian state in which jews can be allowed to live just as arabs live in palace in israel. the. references to various. directors of the anti-defamation league who referred to the new anti-semitism

doesn't address the material in which which they were examinee and so i would ask viewers of russia today to simply google the hamas covenant it's very easy for viewers to do google ambassador and read it yourself right charles wants to jump in and say this is you know what this is going to be seriously i mean for charles go ahead of john. thank you thank you very much i think i would like to go back to jeffrey's very important point earlier when you before you address mormons comment and he was just about to engage in no i think i would agree with jeffrey we should read the hamas charter it's amazing that there's a political social movement coming out of the iranian regime that the iranian people but this corrupt regime that supports hamas and hezbollah and others around the world with this is alarmist perspective not more islam is not islam but radical political islam which mazing lee in the name of trying to rid the region of all

others all jews all chris. gins all gay people subjugating women and the like they use the protocols of the elders of zion if it wasn't so serious the hamas government and some of the statements coming out of the regime would almost be like a monte python skit but it's deadly and it's serious and the regimes of iran the hamas and hezbollah are using classical forms of european genocidal anti semitism to get credibility on the street and what's amazing to me is people like norman finkelstein and other so-called intellectuals are blaming the victim of this reactionary social movement that i would believe that nobody in their right mind in the west would have anything in common with if you can leave iranians were already today today when i was in charge of the ways and the same heroes show these are these two against one on this panel so norman i'd like you to reply to what we've heard so far before we go to the break go ahead ok well i'm sure our friend charles claim that this is a new phenomenon and in fact israel has always alleged that you are as

a member of the nazis and marching and the folks that. jeff you really have to let me say never said that try to be courteous it's not so difficult trying to be a courteous to norman speak please or not easy or just you already please continue . ok i think peter said it will be no filibustering so in nineteen forty eight david ben-gurion the first prime minister of israel he claimed that the arabs were marching in the footsteps of hitler during the eichmann trial in the early one nine hundred sixty s. israel kept linking the nazis and hitler to the arabs and to the palestinians in fact at the time it was being said there's a lot of the of jerusalem was really out there might not ask the mind of the final solution a solution and then we were told right gentlemen i'm going to jump in here ready to

go to a short break and we're going to be continued we'll continue our discussion on anti-semitism state starting. to kick. the can. down the official on t.v. how to make a show. i pod touch from the accuser apps to. enjoy life on the go. video on demand. minefield costs and already says feed now in the palm of your. machine on the dot com.

would be so much brighter than if you move it from friends to pressure these. claims stunts on t.v. don't come. welcome back across time to remind you we're talking about what some are calling the new anti-semitism. but before let's see what russians think about this issue hatred of jews the term and to some of them in fact denotes all forms of hostility and weiland against jews throughout history to date to encompass social economic and political

discrimination as well the russian public opinion research center all citizens what is their attitude towards and to semitism sixty four percent of the respondents comedown that phenomena and only six percent support it but despite the negative attitude towards displays of and to semitism and a host of paula says to root it out many today speak about the emergence of new and to semitism back to. ok norman i like you finish up your point that we made an effort you made in the first part of this program but also what i would like i'd like to also ask is tailing to that where does modern this new anti-semitism come from in your opinion go ahead norman. ok so then we were told nasser was hitler then we were told that saddam hussein was hitler and now we're being told that our dinner jihad is. this hitler has. this is curious

coincidence that whenever israel and the united states want to launch a war of destruction the war of death and destruction the war of aggression they claim that their adversary in the arab world is a hitler or a nazis mr. small they keep pointing to the hamas charter and there are many things no hamas charter there or this vehicle just isn't on the statements that are made by israelis there are despicable so rabbi ovadia. the spiritual leader of the shah's you already which is in the net and then finishes point you there are coalition finishes. finishing. the head of the spiritual leader of chavez he calls for the extermination of the palestinians he's called for the enslavement of the enslavement of non jews we had prime minister begin who called powers than the ns two legged b.

we had pride in the caveats i don't mean anything to me as your point he was going to do thank you cockroaches you made your point thank you charles go ahead and i want to go to jeff after that i think that. i think that what's in amazing there's a sort of a relativism and i'd even say a kind of a paternalistic colonial type of remnants of racism here we have to study as professor her photos and others the ideology of hamas of hezbollah of the regime and respect it and take it very seriously and understand that it's not just about blaming the victim i think there's been a tendency in the in western philosophy and historically to blame victims we used to blame the victim or the women who were raped we used to as a society blame them the more they were there they were doing if african-americans or other people were marginalized and unemployed we used to call them lazy we used to blame them and now for mr finkelstein to actually blame israel the jewish people for anti-semitism is unbelievable he's almost like the chief buthelezi of the

anti-apartheid movement who used to say everything was ok and so that africa when we knew it wasn't there is a radical movement that is afoot and i'm choosing my words extraordinarily carefully that is no less than genocidal and it's anti-semitism and we know from history that anti semitism begins with jews but it never ends with jews once this hatred is unleashed they attack other the disease of hatred attacks other segments of society so if you care about women's rights if you care about the rights of gay people if you care about the rights of bahais and religious pluralism if you care about the basic notion of citizenship you need to take this explosion of our summit to islam in the middle east seriously and the human rights community in the west needs to address that jeffrey you want to make a point been responding i think to what norman was saying or are going to yes yes i'd like to make the following point russia is a country with a great tradition of scholarly and intellectual work and i want to address my remarks to the viewers who consider themselves part of that tradition the

journalist the scholars the public citizens and i want to draw to your attention that in recent years there's been a burst of scholarship by historians in germany in the united states and it is. israel that documents the realities of anti-semitism in the arab and palestinian world before nine hundred forty eight the links between some members some members of the arab nationalist movement and the nazi regime and the post-war prominence of husseini in the palestinian movement a man who participated and supported the nazi regime during world war two now neither charles small nor i have said ahmadinejad is hitler or a mass is hitler we have not made such simple compared to jeff you big name but what do you think when you write in reaction i think you're a patient i've been you say what you write in mr small right creates anti-semitism i don't think that does but some of the things that the israeli regime is what

norman is saying can generate that i think that's what norman said i want to put that i want to by the way to make another point to viewers head to the russian visitors to international viewers jeff to the whole world it's ok an international view and i could make it but i'd like to make a point indicated khrushchev made about stalin in his nine hundred fifty six secret speech in moscow khrushchev said that stalin ignored all the warnings that were coming about the impending invasion of the soviet union by nazi germany and the lesson that khrushchev drew and the lesson that germany that historians of the nazi regime have drawn is that one must never underestimate the power of ideological fanaticism and that's the reality that we're facing today when people are searching for the leaders to the last year or in some very form. started to run you are familiar with this term because are her i don't really even the extent of our mr figures ninety one of your is your optimism or is just we were told that saddam hussein. never loving anyone spring you remember in two thousand and three it was

wrong that saddam hussein was where we were told we were told that anybody who opposed the american the tower. there rock wasn't a lot of these sort of you said earlier we're going to see those are the going would you rather cool is what are so so so now so now it's uncertain so not only it's the same tune all over again so you know what i mean with all that off my dino job is hitler whenever we're being told it has or we're being told everyone it is you know me i see where the united states who aren't you are in your leisure time receive normally include major point jeff jump in and then i want to go to charles go ahead jeff again i want to address myself to the viewers of this program who like to read books. take a look at not only my work the work of robert we screech of martin cooper's of but . of esther webmin of meyer lick that of boston t.v.

there is paul berman there was a burst of scholarship and intellectual engagement in recent years that is important you can agree with it or you can disagree with it but please do not dismiss it look at the evidence look at the evidence. can we talk about that scholarship now peter of art that yes i will and norman i'm sorry charles go ahead because the scholarship was mentioned here all there's a lot of competing scholarship out there norman go ahead ok so jeff her mentions robert wish to choose book and a fraction of her role there were raving blurb for the book the book is called lethal obsession now happens i purchased a copy of the book it's about twelve hundred pages and i looked in the end and i know this my name probably i'm the exhibit number one of the new anti semitism there are more entries for me in the book than there are for david duke there are

more entries for me than there are for eichmann there are more entries for me than are are for david irving so let's see look at. me the book we're doing. to some of those jeff her of the book the book that mr her indorsed because since the book that you just named you said robert we're stretched his book so let's look at it he says the american self hating jew and i'm a holocaust and i'm a holocaust denier well this is the book they're just not mentioned so let's talk about it or he said i'm a self-hate if you do and a holocaust denier peter please tell them to let me speak continue norman you are in this no filibustering. it is your point norman. thank you so he calls me a self hating jew and a holocaust denier so i want to put this question to mr her who gave

a raving review for the book a blurb for the book i want to put this question to you mr hurd i wrote two books pertaining to the nazi holocaust one of them a nation on trial coauthored with ruth but tina byrne was named the notable book of the year the new york times sunday book review the second book the holocaust industry was showered with praise by the dean of holocaust istari in zero will hilberg who called the book a breakthrough and he also was very generous news praise about me as a historian and he said well you place a mystery as a historian is assured so yes where you are we're talking about you there's a showing if you don't isn't this a lot of things i want to ask you so i want to i want to ask you jeff do you think the new year do you think their role hilberg is a holocaust denier ok that's a question jim the answer is no normanton orlando answer the question please go

ahead jeff a month ago a month ago i delivered the rile him morial lecture at the university of vermont. it was an honor to do it and i'm very proud to. thank you. of course he's not a holocaust denier he was a great historian of the holocaust. that doesn't mean that i agree with everything that he has to say i'm glad very glad that you brought robert wister as a lethal obsession to the attention of the viewers of russia today it's a very fine bordeaux and should reach the secure our share of what do you think overall for you to look at welcome welcome in peter committed to really well i'm a serious star and i'm not used to this kind of this kind of nonsense the. robert was just book deals sure enough there you have it you just you're out there in just . over twelve hundred pages the book is very very narrow actually. would

you please stop interrupting me it's a remarkable assessment of the history of anti-semitism in europe its diffusion to the middle east and i might add for russian viewers there are several wonderful chapters about soviet anti-semitism and the role that the soviet union play from the one nine hundred sixty s. to the one nine hundred eighty s. in spreading anti semitism an antique zionism around the globe so will be of particular interest for viewers of russian t.v. all over the world already taking the numbers for a future time we've really run out of time here many thanks to our guests today in new york washington and in san francisco and thanks to our international viewers for watching us here r.t.e. see you next time and remember cross talk rules. and.