well north says reacting positively because at present there is no deal it's not imminent to buy it from the market seems like the most likely scenario at least in the short term not sure update for this hour but you can always buy more stories on our website r.t. dot com slash business. it

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markets why not. find out what's really happening to the global economy is causing reports on our. it's seven thirty pm in the russian capital good to have you with poster on our t.v. easier headline a question of time he waits to find out how many more years will have to spend behind bars the already jailed former russian tycoon was found guilty of embezzling billions of dollars he's currently serving a sentence for tax evasion and fraud. russia's prime minister slams airport airline personnel for what peoples unacceptable behavior thousands of stranded passengers in moscow say they were left to fend for themselves this comes after bad weather conditions temporarily shut down the airport delays and flight

cancellations at other airports. and the u.s. military budget grows as less money flows to welfare benefits some americans are wondering whether they're paying too much to fill the nation's war chest the federal debt has reportedly hit its highest level in more than sixty years. more on these stories in thirty minutes time up next though peter lavelle tackles anti-semitism and asks his guests if it israel's domestic or foreign policy is fueling it coming your way and crosstalk in a few moments. we'll come to the what makes a big splash in the world of high tech business trends advance science and i get cheap products they don't understand oh he's he's got he followed russian evaders to easy bidders and brought in their big breakthrough back home spotlight on

stories on technology update here on. the future coverage. hello and welcome to cross talk i'm peter all about anti-semitism is nothing new to the world and it's undeniable that it exists today however how should anti-semitism be defined and by whom. to discuss the uses and abuses of anti-semitism i'm joined by norman finkelstein in new york he's a political scientist and author in washington we go to jeff her he is a professor of modern european history at the university of maryland and in san

francisco we cross to charles small he is the director of the yale initiative for the interdisciplinary study of anti-semitism and another member of our cross talk team yelena hunger all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump any time you want and i don't want to be filibustering first i'd like to go to you charles in san francisco we hear a lot about the new anti-semitism today what is the new anti-semitism and how pervasive is it so i would say in a nutshell the new anti-semitism is an amalgamation of the different forms or strands of anti-semitism historically there is an element that is religious based that comes from the past there's also anti semitism to in some places that are still sort of biologically determine the racist type of anti-semitism and i think that the new anti-semitism really has as its focus the demonization and the deal with them as a sion of israel and there's a correlation between the two i did an article with a colleague edward kaplan and we showed we interviewed five thousand europeans in

ten countries and there's a very powerful correlation between classical anti semitism i.e. how jews do in business and whether they integrate or stick to themselves questions along those lines the old. the summit ism and then we did a criteria that we called israel bashing extreme views of israel israel's an apartheid state and the like and we found that the people who have very strong views on israel that we called israel bashers in our study in our in our criteria of the answers five questions out of seven we would be considered israel but years of the population there are fifty six parties more likely or thirteen times more likely than the average population to be anti semitic in the classical sense as well so there's a strong correlation between the two though differences people who criticize israel are not necessarily anti semitic but there is a correlation that's off the charts if you will ok norman if i can go to you and you're an expert on this you wrote a book called beyond just on the misuses of anti-semitism in the abusive history would you agree with what charles had to say about what anti-semitism is today and

how pervasive is pervasive babies. well the important facts about the new anti semitism as it's called is that it's neither new nor this i have anything to do with anti semitism every time israel faces a public relations debacle or comes under international pressure to settle the conflict with the palestinians diplomatically they allege that there is a new anti semitism so in the nineteen seventies the head of the anti-defamation league arnold forster he wrote the book the title was the new anti semitism. in the one nine hundred eighty s. then head of the anti-defamation league nathan perlmutter he wrote a book called the real anti semitism in which he said there was a new anti semitism in the early two thousand when israel came under international

pressure because of the repression of the palestinians during the second intifada there was again a whole slew of books and titled the new anti semitism the head of the a.d.l. now the anti-defamation league abraham foxman he wrote a book called never again the new anti semitism and after israel's nasser occur in gaza and the bloodbath in the mavi marmara the freedom flotilla once again we're hearing these claims about a new anti semitism and we're seeing this vast production of books many of them running to about a thousand pages alleging a new anti semitism the purpose of this is pretty straightforward first of all to turn the perpetrator namely israel into the victim the victim of anti semitism and secondly to discredit all of israel's critics as being anti semitic so as

the very centrist israeli columnist you know mark is he put a few weeks ago in harvard's newspaper he said of patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels that anti semitism is the last refuge of occupiers israel is an occupier and uses anti semitism in order to discredit critics of the occupation ok jeff jeffrey do you agree with that little israel uses anti-semitism to discredit its enemies or what he defines as its enemies go ahead i can't think of a single thing that norman finkelstein just said that i think that i either agree with or that is true but why. rather than respond to what he just said i'd like to make a point about. recent historical scholarship. there has been a shift in the center of gravity of anti-semitism globally from its historic

roots in europe to the middle east. the old anti semitism was was a link to a radicalization of christianity and was inseparable from european fascism and nancy as i'm beginning in the middle of the twentieth century before the state of israel was founded during the rise of naziism and fascism in europe of cultural fusion began to take place between conspiracy theories in europe. and. an emerging new tradition called islamism not islam but islamism. which which interpreted the religion of islam as an inherently anti semitic religion and this is the new quality of anti-semitism in the world today found in the beliefs and actions of organizations such as hamas hezbollah are al-qaeda and most importantly the government of iran. the are the essence of the new

anti semitism is that the state of israel exists in order to destroy islam. and that the solution to the middle east problem is the destruction of the state of israel four members of hamas the government of iran there is no distinction between anti zionism and hatred of the jews which they parade publicly again and again for all who are willing to read and see so charles i mean i'd like to go back to something that would normally have to say so israel's foreign policy or our paris is proscar jump in norman go ahead. no there was i was doing and to jump in the crosstalk rose go ahead gorman go ahead. i would be happy to answer what you have had to say and i will in the moment but i would like to put a question to him just said that everything i said was not true so i would be

curious to know if you can cite exactly which statements of mine were not true jeff would you like to reply to the description can get you even you that's just me directly go ahead. now reply yes or go ahead norman finkelstein referring to israel's massacre in gaza this is a blatant falsehood. the there is no country in the history of the world. that attempted to defeat terrorists by sending several hundred thousand telephone calls to residents of apartment buildings in an occupied area or an area under attack warning them of attacks to come to describe this as a massacre is false the notion that israel is the perpetrator here is also something that norman finkelstein and others have repeated year after year there is a solution to the israeli palestinian problem it is simply a palestinian state in which jews can be allowed to live just as arabs live in

palace in israel. the. references to various. directors of the anti-defamation league who referred to the new anti-semitism doesn't address the material in which which they were examining and so i would ask viewers of russia today to simply google the hamas covenant it's very easy for viewers to do a google ambassador and read it yourself right charles wants to jump in and say this is you know this is going to seriously i mean for charles go ahead of john. thank you thank you very much i think i would like to go back to jeffrey's very important points earlier when you before he addressed mormons comments and he was just about to engage in no i think i would agree with jeffrey we should read the hamas charter it's amazing that there's a political social movement coming out of the iranian regime that the iranian people but this corrupt regime that supports hamas and hezbollah and others around

the world with the alarmist perspective and lot more islam is not islam but radical political islam which mazing lee in the name of trying to rid the region of all others all jews all chris. gins all gay people subjugating women and the like they use the protocols of the elders of zion if it wasn't so serious the hamas government and some of the statements coming out of the regime would almost be like a monte python skit but it's deadly and it's serious and the regimes of iran the hamas and hezbollah are using classical forms of european genocidal anti semitism to get credibility on the street and what's amazing to me is people like norman finkelstein and other so-called intellectuals are blaming the victim of this reactionary social movement that i would believe that nobody in their right mind in the west would have anything in common with the ok leaving the romans were already today which they don't listen to the ways of the jews and here i was shown these are these two against one on this panel so norman i'd like you to reply to what

we've heard so far before we go to the break go ahead ok well fed and charles claim that this is a new phenomenon and in fact israel has always alleged that you know there are a number of design nazis and marching in the footsteps. jeff you really have to let me say never said that try to be courteous it's not so difficult trying to be a courteous it's not so they don't normally speak the least or not easy or just you know already please continue. ok i think peter said it will be no filibustering so in nineteen forty eight david ben-gurion the first prime minister of israel he claimed that the arabs were marching in the footsteps of hitler during the eichmann trial in the early one nine hundred sixty s. israel kept linking the nazis and hitler to the arabs and to the palestinians in fact at the time it was being said there is

a lot of the of jerusalem was really out there muddy. the mind of the final solution solution then we were told right gentlemen i'm going to still jump in here ready to go to a short break and we're going to be continued we'll continue our discussion on anti-semitism state starting. to take it. to. the club so to speak to the region where industries are rapidly developing. now wattie goes to the homeland of those with strength of mind and body. to the land developed by cossacks in ancient times. which became the premier destination

for nineteenth century political exile. this is the. question claim self on oxy. hungry for the food we've got. the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers. welcome back to rostock i'm here to remind you we're talking about what some are calling the new anti-semitism. but before let's see what russians think about this issue hatred of jews the term and to semitism in fact denotes all forms of hostility and while ans begins jools

throughout history to date to encompass is social economic and political discrimination as well the russian public opinion research center all citizens what does their attitude towards and to semitism sixty four percent of the respondents come down that phenomena and only six percent support it but despite the negative attitude it does displays of end to semitism and a host of paula says to root it out minute to day speak about the emergence of new and to semitism back to. ok norm and i like you finish up your point that we made an effort you made in the first part of this program but also what i would like i'd like to also ask is tailing to that where does modern this new anti-semitism come from in your opinion go ahead norman. ok so then we were told nasser was hitler then we were told that saddam hussein was hitler and now we're being told that our dinner jihad is. hezbollah as hitler there is this curious

coincidence that whenever israel and the united states want to launch a war of destruction the war of death and destruction the war of aggression they claim that their adversary in the arab world is a hitler or a nut sees mr. small they keep pointing to the hamas charter and there are many things no hamas charter there or this vehicle just isn't on the statements that are made by israelis there are despicable so rabbi ovadia. the spiritual leader of the shah's you already which is in the north and then finishes point you there are coalition finishes. finishing. the head of the spiritual leader of us he calls for the extermination of the palestinians he's called for the enslavement of the goyim in slave mint of non jews we had prime minister dagon who called powers than eons to get be we had pride in the cave men

anything to me geroy he was going to do thank you cockroaches you made your point thank you charles go ahead and i want to go to jeff after that i think that. i think that what's in amazing there's a sort of a relativism and i'd even say a kind of a paternalistic colonial type of remnants of racism here we have to study as professor her photos and others the ideology of hamas of hezbollah of the regime and respect it and take it very seriously and understand that it's not just about blaming the victim i think there's been a tendency in the in western philosophy and historically to blame victims we used to blame the victim or the women who were raped we used to as a society blame them ask them where they were what were they were doing if african-americans or other people were marginalized and unemployed we used to call them lazy we used to blame them and now for mr finkelstein to actually blame israel and the jewish people for anti-semitism is unbelievable he's almost like the chief

buthelezi of the anti-apartheid movement who used to say everything was ok and so that africa when we knew it wasn't there is a radical movement that is afoot and i'm choosing my words extraordinarily carefully that is no less than genocidal and it's anti-semitism and we know from history that anti semitism begins with jews but it never ends with jews once this hatred is unleashed they attack other the disease of hatred attacks other segments of society so if you care about women's rights if you care about the rights of gay people if you care about the rights of bodies and religious pluralism if you care about the basic notion of citizenship you need to take this explosion of already some of them in the middle east seriously and the human rights community in the west needs to address that jeffrey you want to make a point been responding i think to what norman was saying or go ahead yes yes i'd like to make the following point russia is a country with a great tradition of scholarly and intellectual work and i want to address my remarks to the viewers who consider themselves part of that tradition the

journalist the scholars the public citizens and i want to draw attention that in recent years there's been a burst of scholarship by historians in germany in the united states and. israel that documents the realities of anti-semitism in the arab and palestinian world before nine hundred forty eight the links between some members some members of the arab nationalist movement and the nazi regime and the post-war prominence of hayami now husseini in the palestinian movement a man who participated and supported the nazi regime during world war two now neither charles small nor i have said ahmadinejad is hitler or a mosque is hitler we have not made such simple compared to jeff what do you think when you write in reaction i think you're a patient i've been you say what you write in mr small right creates anti-semitism i don't think that does but some of the things that the israeli regime is what

norman is saying can generate that i think that's what norman said i want to put that i want to by the way to make another point. to the russian visitors to international viewers jeff to the whole world it's ok internationally and i can make it but i'd like to make a point indicated khrushchev made about stalin in his nine hundred fifty six secret speech in moscow khrushchev said that stalin ignored all the warnings that were coming about the impending invasion of the soviet union by nazi germany and the lesson that khrushchev drew and the lesson that germany and the historians of the nazi regime have drawn is that one must never underestimate the power of ideological fanaticism and that's the reality that we're facing today when people are searching for the leaders of the last year or in some very for at this time. starting to run the very familiar with this term because are her i don't really even the extent of our mr finkelstein you are very well and you're interrupting your summer is just we were told that saddam hussein. never letting anyone scream

you remember in two thousand and three it was for all that saddam hussein was where we were told we were told that anybody who opposed the american attack. there rock was in the what do you. want to do she doesn't want to go do you a very radical islam are so so so now so now it's uncertain so now it's the same tune all over again so you know where are you with all that off my dino jaw this hitler whenever we're being told it has no right or we're being told that everyone is you know. we're the united states who owns the n.r.a. and you need to really see the army in nature point jeff jump in and then i want to go to charles go ahead jeff again i want to address myself to the viewers of this program who like to read books. take a look at not only my work the work of robert we stretch of martin cooper's of but . of esther webmin of meyer lit that of boston t.v.

there is paul berman there was a burst of scholarship and intellectual engagement in recent years that is important you can agree with it or you can disagree with it but please do not dismiss it look at the evidence look at the evidence. can we talk about that scholarship now peter about that yes i well norman i'm sorry charles go ahead because the scholarship was mentioned here although there's a lot of competing scholarship out there norman go ahead ok so jeff her mentions robert we're still to this book and a fraction of her role there were raising blurb for the book the book is called lethal obsession now happens i purchased a copy of the book it's about twelve hundred pages and i looked and i know this. probably i'm the exhibit number one of the new anti semitism there are more entries for me in the book than there are for david duke there are more entries for me than

there are for them and there are more entries for me than are are for david irving so let's. me the book we're dealing. some of those in the book and jeff her of the book the book that mr her indorsed because since the book that you just named you said robert we're stretched his book so let's look at it he says in the american self hating jew and i'm a holocaust and i'm a holocaust denier well this is the book that chestnut mentions so let's talk about it or he said i'm a self hating you through and a holocaust denier peter please tell them to let me speak continue norman you are in the snow filibustering. finish your point norman ok thank you so he calls me a self hating jew and a holocaust denier so i want to put this question to mr her who gave

a raving review for the book a blurb for the book i want to put this question to you mr hurd i wrote two books pertaining to the nazi holocaust one of them a nation on trial coauthored with ruth tina byrne was named the notable book of the year the new york times sunday book review the second book the holocaust industry was showered with praise by the dean of holocaust istari in zero hilberg who called the book a breakthrough and he also was very generous news praise about me as a historian and he said well you place a misery as a historian is so sure and so yes where you are we're talking about you there's a showing if you don't listen to this there are a lot of things i want to ask you so i want to i want to ask you jeff do you think the new year do you think their role hilberg is a holocaust denier ok that's

a question jim the answer is now the norm is the norm and all that just answer the question please go ahead jeff a month ago a month ago i delivered the rile him memorial lecture at the university of vermont . it was an honor to do it and i'm very proud. thank you. of course he's not a holocaust denier he was a great historian of the holocaust. that doesn't mean that i agree with everything that he has to say i'm glad very glad that you brought robert wister chisel lethal obsession to the attention of the viewers of russia today it's a very fine book all should reach the secure archer of why do you think over a phrase look at welcome welcome here and. commit to hell i'm a serious star and i'm not used to this kind of this kind of nonsense the. robert was just book deals sure enough there you have it you just you're out there trying

to. over twelve hundred pages the book is very very narrow to the next assman would you please stop interrupting me it's a remarkable assessment of the history of anti-semitism in europe its diffusion to the middle east and i might add for russian viewers there are several wonderful chapters about soviet anti-semitism and the role that the soviet union play from the one nine hundred sixty s. to the one nine hundred eighty s. in spreading anti semitism and anti sign ism around the globe so will be of particular interest for viewers of russian t.v. all over the world already taking on the numbers for a future time we've really run out of time here many thanks to our guests today in new york washington and in san francisco and thanks to our international viewers for watching us here r.t.e. see you next time and remember cross talk rules. and.