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to. go ahead big business. country all. the. time. get ready. perceptions of. and you can. follow crosstalk i'm peter lavelle the uses and misuses of religion islam schooled on the misunderstood is the code on any more violence than the holy books of

christians and jews and what can muslims do to influence global public opinion about their religion. and. to discuss the quote on i'm joined by wafa sultan in los angeles she's an author of the book a god who hates the courageous woman who inflame the muslim world speaks out against the evils of islam and in washington we go to it but i am ramey he is the director of the civil and human rights division of the muslim american society freedom and another member of our cross talk team yell on the hunger all right folks cross talk rules and in fact that means you can jump in anytime you want and i'd like to start with a very short disclaimer here we're talking about a very sensitive topic here and in no way shape or form does this program or i believe its panelist want to inflame any passions this is a very dispassionate discussion about important issues that is being talked about

today so to start off the program i'll be a little provocative after that disclaimer i'd like to listen to two passages one from the koran and one from the holy bible the first one here from the quote on slave the idlers where were ever you find them arrest them besieged them and lie and ambush everywhere for them also let's go to the passage from the holy bible i will make my arrows drunk with blood while my sword devours flesh the blood of the slain in the captives the heads of enemy leaders. all right i think normal person would see both those passages as being very well violence i think there's that's an easy way to say it so if i am if i can go to you we hear in common discourse very often that the quote on there is a text of violence of blood but you can find many equal if we find these passages about violence there to be a point we can find equal ones in other holy books but not too many people go

around saying the holy bible is so in blood so what is the difference between the two and why this happened well i think i think the difference primarily is that we are in a historical moment where a radical and violent tendency within islam is really center stage in the global discourse that we are looking at a minority but a very clear minority of muslims that are engaged in actions that we would consider from a quarter on a perspective or from a logical perspective to be simply not in accord with the best and the highest teachings of the faith so i think that given had germany on the christian side of the ledger if you will given the way in which islam is look at historically i think it's very easy to take those passages and conflate them into a general feeling that islam is violent and i would challenge that assertion wafa

in los angeles do you agree or disagree with it i am on that is that is there any is there in the balance here between the two go ahead yes i believe the whole world is have think problem with islam today and not with the young at the muslims believe that is the absolute north toward god and they have to follow it quoted by you would this it that if that is between the bible and the court on. well a lot of steelhead if there's a lot in christians they were saying that there were a lot of christians that would say that about the bible and if we look over the past two thousand years they have done many christians have done pouring things in the name of their prophet so i mean if you can say that there is no difference between the two i would agree i think all three of us agree there people use islam the word within the islamic community to use the code on for purposes that any normal person i never agreed to go ahead by saying by just by saying that you're

trying to justify what muslims same said what good is done and then. well i don't think anyone should i say only justifies the violence no one justifies violence on my program my point was is there a double standard if we look at the texts the tx the quote on and the bible i'm not looking at history is this point i'm asking you to compare the texts but that's ok but that is not as good as the threat is and the way. what an exegesis and the way it could sense applying the bible that is a big difference the problem today is one of the most and if it does not wish it could have sent. me i'm maybe not the problem is that now the problem is that the christians of today ok i am if i go to you when george bush when george bush is going to do invade iraq he invoked god he invoked the crusade ok i mean in every

step of his presidency he voted his christianity ok so don't tell no one can tell me that people are using christianity for very evil purposes in the twenty first century go ahead. you know it is very easy to conflate politics and race and tribalism and nationality into religion and come out with a mix that is really a toxic brew and i certainly do agree with waffle of that the world does have problems with a certain kind of fundamentalism but let's also recognize for example in the context of the twentieth century that christian nations have gone to war with each other particularly in the second world war. catholics and protestants going to war with orthodox christians in what was then the soviet union and all of them were to some extent evoking you know religious passion as a reason to to to beat back their enemies i believe that the real critical question

for the twenty first century is not dissolve in islam or trying to reinterpret the koran for the nth time but rather to come up with an understanding of faith that is truly an authentically that only nonviolent but also rational and i believe also that there is no single interpretation of islam because we have multiple judicial schools multiple historical experiences as an african-american muslim my experience of islam in the koran is radically different from from that of a person in afghanistan although we refer to the same text so let's not try to mix everything up in the same. in the same toxic sense because islam is a plural reality in the same way that christianity is well for do you think that in the eye and i just go ahead by soon you live in the united states i do what is your perception do you think americans and american media present and islam is being one one a whole unified thing because reflecting on what you've just said i mean it's quite diverse ok but do you think that it's been is the perception of this dandelion

around days go ahead the underlying foundation of islam is to take over the world muslims you know has to believe in islam as a religion and as a state what stands out i'm not allowed to live and that the american constitution they are here eventually to replace the american constitution with islamic sharia because no one is allowed to live but and that islamic sharia ok wasn't the end warfare can you any evidence for your state what is the evidence that you have to make that statement that they want to take over the internet that's lying on their head yet the evidence and the court on and it is and you have to read one hundred months life in arabic and order to understand that the underlying foundation of islam is to take over i was all done to fly people until they believe

in islam. but i think this is what mohamed said well thought well that is that is absolutely right so that is absolutely in kind of the reality of a person like me who is an eighth generation american whose parents are christian whose associates and friends and loved ones in many ways in many cases are christian no one has ever told me in any religious context that i've been in that the purpose of my life was to somehow overturn constitutional law and replace it with sharia that simply isn't true and nor is it true in agreement you know your place is in the muslim world that in which muslims are way way way in which muslims are either i majority or a minority so i think you're simply taking a break your perceptions out and trying and you're right and you're trying to universalize it in a way that's not true wafa go ahead it is simply not true that's not the reality that we live in the united states of america you are not but you're not supposed to

wait for someone to tell you that you should do your own homework and to reach your own conclusion does god does that i have that by the way i have i mean i definitely do my own homework and reach my own conclusion and my conclusion is yes i testify that there is no god there is a possible that and i live and i live in a community i live in a community and i live in a world where the kind of radically extremist anti muslim views that you articulate simply don't apply. so you don't mean you are not your need you are need to open mind. what muslims out of doing and saying not only and that just let me come to me is but whether i thought that they exist just to listen to. this settlement and any islamic country you know in that it's the same conclusion that i have i have never. i

didn't wait for someone to tell me what islam is ok out i have lived all right abraham i think it's quite interesting it was i will invoke history so i think i'll go down the same path i mean if you look at the the the muslim ottoman empire that lasted for many many centuries christians and jews survived but they didn't do so well in europe i mean if we can say that you know who wants to conquer the world christianity as the limits of all are actually just really very low it i mean it is no one really can cheer for the tolerance of christianity but here in muslim societies even in iran there's still a jewish community it still exists. well i mean it's kind of the central question is this because theoretically you know what i am going to have to meet you but i have read that way wait you can you can look historically at a number of periods in which muslims and jews and people about the face of actually

call existed quite well in the medina society under the treaty of medina instituted by prophet muhammad peace upon him and al on the loose now not now known as the a very influential a for seven hundred eighty seven years from seven eleven to fourteen ninety two in vast numbers of places in africa you don't see the kind of enmity and the kind of conflict that wafa is making making reference to now yes there are problems and there have been problems in terms of religious intolerance on all sides of the religious equation but having said that i think also it is also fair to say that the highest part of the religion the most people have said in a maybe i'm going to let you finish as well as if it was actually what is really going to shortly go to a break here after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the quote on stay with r.t. . if you. want.

children now see how eight thousand murders by the end of elementary school but two hundred silos of violence despite the age of eighteen. tell me show video games. twenty four hour news channels ratio is now. every day formulate a staple just really a. lot of shakespeare those while those who say you know if this think about it why this is that the truth about artistic journalistically true but most of the violence you have to see is what i call happy. i think that god came down from heaven and stopped. at the. moment in a pretty what. makes the pill easier to swallow.

everybody was come. soon which brightened. about sums from funds to pressure these. stunts on t.v. dot com. if you. want to. welcome back to cross talk i'm curious about to remind you we're talking about the main religious text of islam. pick.

but first let's see what russians think about islam and terrorism. is slam one of the world's major monotheistic religions articulated by the koran his holy book but with the rise of terrorism worldwide many now claim islam is not a religion but an ideology the russian public opinion research center also citizens if they see international terrorism being closely linked to a slab so to ninety percent of the respondents said it is not twenty five percent believe the threat of international terrorism may be paused but religious fanatics of any religion and that the seventeen percent of those polled think the terrorism threat comes not from a slam at cell but from its fundamentalist elements and only twelve percent see islam as a true reason behind international terrorism back to peter. ok but i am before we

went to the break you were. eluding to finishing up a point you want to finish there and i'd like to talk about. american foreign policy in the perception of islam go ahead. sure the point that i said we want to make is that it is possible to look at very complex world history and see the worst and the best size of faith traditions and communities of faith including islam i am not in any way an apologist for evil for terrorism or for violence and i think those things do exist within islam as they have existed and do exist in other traditions but having said that i also believe that the islam that i follow and the vast majority of people in the world follow and clued in those in the united states is not an islam of. terrorism or one that is an apologist for violence or one that sees itself exclusively as a revelation that cannot co-exist with people of other faiths ok wafa you made

a point in the first part of the program about how there are islam by its very nature needs to take over the world desires to take over the world and that's your position and maybe other people believe that but there's one there is a fact on the ground is that for some muslims and people that in my opinion probably will misuse their own religion they will misuse their own religion because of occupation western occupation of muslim lands in the world that certainly does motivate some people the worst kind of people that abuse the tradition that muslims have so what is the it's going to the political realm right here no it does motivate people peter go ahead you know peter i'm not to here you know to i'm not against muslim i am against islam when you'll come up with a clear definition of what elision you will easily be able to prove that it's not editors and i put it so nicely don't believe any other listen but i assume

that it illusion is supposed to establish a spell to well the relationship between at goodison and bream pub that eventually had a flick bust at the flea on his life live and let me just let me put all of that islam has failed as it is listen. i believe system that imposes itself by force it's not an innocent i believe system that at bulis is the women and go instead of them mentally unfit to take a child of their own lives is not an illusion believe system that my girl manages your money life to that point that you'll come up to scratch your head without it is just odd that it's not an illusion ok what are you going to say this is where it's very interesting even to him i mean i'll try to go back to

the foreign policy issue because i think it is important but it was a brought up an interesting point how much in in your perception of the way least the western world looks at islam how much is that religion versus tradition because there's a lot of things will be said in the quote on the tradition has been added on to it because i think i have very many muslim friends that say well peter that's not that's a tradition that's not in our holy book and on and on and on like driving a car or something like that it's certainly not in the code on how much of it how much is that western society in your in your opinion conflated the two tradition and in the religious text. well just as a state with a fact i scratch my head all the time wolf and nobody needs to issue a religious religious edict about it frankly or anybody trying to take my wife's voice in the right way or there would be a major excuse me excuse me but i'm sure that if and when and when anyone tried to take my wife's driver's license away from her there'd be

a big hassle but but but on a more serious level i think you have to say. that you have had some horrific experiences with muslims and you know and. i'm saying this from what from what from what i'm able from what i'm able to discern about you in terms of your intellectual development and your position it's been shaped by some very bad things and there's no doubt about that and i grieve that those things will happen to people like you but that is not characteristic the n.o.a.a. of the reality of one point six billion people in the world most of whom the great majority of whom coexist quite well with their neighbors whether their neighbors are christians or jews or or janes or sikhs or frankly atheists and agnostics ok waffer you want to reply to that goes a lot of school yeah of course i had some bad experiences do you know why because i lived for thirty years of my life and that stomach said yeah but you're living in

a free country you can the choice of what apply is islam and what good is it i couldn't do that if you look at any static country and tell me what do you see there nothing but positive back what this dictatorship women at bule with what do you see tell me why the aesthetic world is and not but um. because a lot alive and well first of all i don't think the islamic world is in on that i think frankly i think frankly you are you are in your own opinions which you are absolutely entitled to do but they don't necessarily become a generalization that everybody can follow if you say that you want to slime and reject the prophet muhammad and reject the law that's your right to do that but don't try to impose your or your particular view of that on more than a million people who know most of you you would probably vehemently disagree in most cases go ahead well if you want to go you know i have. you know i have read.

that also mohammad an arabic language was by war and i know very well how one how mad had done what he had done and his life and i you know i was thought of very elderly that mohammad is a what role model to follow so they are following they had a profit food stead and a stomach warrant and that's why women are suffering for the last so deen hundred years you don't know women situation and any stomach done to me you don't know how women are treated and afghanistan and pakistan and saudi arabia and syria and egypt don't you hear about how muslims are killing cops and egypt do you know how many millions us jewish have left their old age and that it's let me come to this and the last fifty years you don't hear ok you're losing what it was i thank you and

what i for you brought me back to a point i brought i wanted to bring up in the early earlier in the program abraham if i can go to you i mean if you look at the end muslims the muslim countries in the greater middle east i would agree most of them have dictators are run by dictators and almost all of them are america's friends ok so because you're proud of your pride and yet and this is this is very interesting because you hear the phrase these people in islam one is against our freedoms and you know it gets just the reverse they probably would very much love to have our freedoms but they're proud they're supported by a government in washington that what props up these tyrannies in the arab world and doesn't allow people to be free doesn't allow free elections and doesn't allow development of maybe civil society in a different way whatever best way is for them ok but you know it goes there is there are geopolitical elements here and how americans in western society perceive islam in this in its geopolitics as well go ahead. yeah the geo political aspects of the argument are always usually pushed aside depending upon what you want to

justify so for example when i led a human rights elevation to egypt a couple of years ago there was no discussion about pushing aside islam there was a great discussion however on the part of my gyptian counterparts about the fact that the united states spends nearly eight hundred. billion dollars i'm sorry eight hundred million dollars a year. in foreign aid to egypt and that that become that's the second largest foreign aid development allocation of america anywhere in the world second only to israel the question then becomes how do we create a moral order a world order that honors the best of religious traditions but at the same time does not allow for dictatorship and i would agree that dictatorship is wrong but that's not something that was intrinsically placed in islam because there are many examples quite to the contrary exactly what do you think about that i mean i had i

knew you had to go ahead please do please do yeah mohammad was himself dictator at the age of eight i was that mohamed had these headed eight hundred jewish men and one night when you're on this is still very easily what kind of person you are going to be and the future mohamed is a lot of our own mother. you know that. that's let me out pretty well that's a serious and very honestly a story very clear i haven't heard and i think a lot of progress would mean as i go in that we're almost out of time here if you go ahead go ahead go ahead you want to reply to that go ahead. yeah i think i think that essentially wafa is an idealogue against islam which is her right i think that she has a particular interpretation of color on and then history which again is her right but let's let's establish two very basic things number one there is

a. business against islam in the world and business is booming but number two let's also recognize that there are numerable muslim advocates and practitioners that are doing very good things in the world that we shouldn't look at that as being part of our faith that we do embrace that as part of our faith and that i believe that the nonviolent and the ration. of islam which wafa never admits to will ultimately be the way that the faith is looked at by the great majority of people in the world right willing thank i want to invoke i'm sorry we've run out of time we've run into many thanks to my guest today in washington and in los angeles and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. see you next time and remember ross topples.