history pakistan. country is so pain right. rome welcome back his home. state this is all see the key nuclear arms reduction treaty between moscow and washington is approved by the russian parliament and the second of three readings the stalled path which was signed last year has already been given the go ahead by the u.s. senate's. despite accepting part of the blame poland says it will launch its own probe into last april's plane crash which killed president lech kaczynski also claims the official report leaves some questions on long. and although there is no extradition treaty in place between washington and ball many afghans have been

assured talked to the u.s. to stand trial on terrorism charges bob the lack of official basis for this means it could be america that's breaking international law. ok out next people of death exchanged verbal blows over the u.s. role in pakistan and whether the state is just a poor one in the afghan war will cross talk is that so mrs. and you can. follow him welcome to crosstalk i'm peter about plunging into the abyss increased violence in radicalism is tearing pakistan apart can

a country that is so polarized remain a staunch ally in washington so-called war on terror. and. to discuss the political situation in pakistan i'm joined by dan hill i'm in dubai he is the editor of the news service pakistan. dot com in beirut we have robert fisk he's the middle east correspondent for the independent and in washington we go to lisa curtis she is a senior research fellow at the heritage foundation and another member of our cross talk team you know on the hunger crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in when you want robert i want to go to you first last week we had a popular liberal governor in pakistan assassinated his assassin is turned into a national hero for some people in pakistan and the lawyers that used to play such an important role in defending civil society many young lawyers are lining up to defend him is pakistan falling apart well you know i've come in pakistan for thirty

four years and i've always been our society in question and i don't think pakistan is falling apart i think pakistan is a country of people who read a lot they're very cultured people pakistan as they read a lot they learn a lot. there are much greater learners than the arabs are there they are muslims like them for the most part. i think pakistani people have a terrible government a terrible regime i think the government of pakistan is really awful. it is totally corrupt and i don't know how you can be corrupt ties a country you know it it's easy to say corruption is the great sin of a country saudi arabia egypt lebanon you can name them all and they're all true they

are corrupt but how do you deep corrupt a country i don't know and i don't know how you do it with pakistan ok we're going to do with iraq and robert how do you how a country that is so corrupt can it be a good stanch ally of the united states in its war on terror as i started out the program oh yes of course the united states wants corrupt countries it loves corrupt countries you know that vietnam was a corrupt country and the united states loved it and supposed to and went to war for it. merica loves corrupt countries because they will do what they're told to do when they're paid money this is the problem ok the the real the real issue is how would you deal with a country that has become corrupted ok i'll give you deep corruption i am i don't know the answer to this question usually think you know. can pakistan be

a good ally of the united states if it is so corrupt as robert is just said and it's add on the caviar robert thinks that the united states likes the fact that pakistan is corrupt because it's pliable. well i do agree with robert that pakistan is not falling apart but i obviously strenuously disagree with him that the us likes to work with corrupt countries this is simply not the case it makes it much more difficult and in fact that's the difficulty that we're facing is that there is a sort of growing disillusionment with the government particularly for the handling of the the floods visit our government was seen as providing a very feeble response to the massive flooding that took place in pakistan earlier this year and so frankly it's difficult the us runs to support those who are willing to stand up to extremism and certainly he has been willing to speak out very strongly against the murder of someone to syria the governor last week and

this says something because a lot of people in pakistan not only the religious parties but the lawyers as you said some even in the media have actually been condoning the murder and i think what this has told us policymakers is that extremism in pakistan is much deeper and broader within the society that i think people previously realize that said even though some people might say pakistan's already lost to extremism us support can make no difference it's a corrupt regime all these things that robert was saying i disagree i think that the u.s. does need to continue to support the government to strive to have a partnership with pakistan support those who are willing to stand up to the extremists and also work with the military in its efforts to try to stamp out this terrorist scorch which is threatening to overtake pakistan ok dan if i can go

to you whether we're stream islam is been brought up here a lot of people in pakistan would say be extremists or really be united states and its drone attacks on civilians on its sovereign soil i mean you know it depends on how you want to define extreme extremism in that you know what end of the stick you are on that. ok chris sorry i don't agree with what lisa was saying earlier i think the answer to pakistan's problems it's less u.s. involvement it's less u.s. meddling in pakistan's affairs people in pakistan see the u.s. . as a power that that brought in this that helped bring in this discord up these corrupt politicians in power i mean they it was the u.s. and british pressure which which forced the secure military ruler to strike deals and bring these exiled corrupt leaders back into power and they've never never enjoyed any instability because they don't actually have any sort of the people basically people in pakistan don't trust them and they never will because they know

the history of these politicians they've been in power before the been in ministries before everybody seen what they have done in the more the u.s. tries to prop them up you know it's just it's just going to backfire on the everyone and that's what we're seeing at the moment and if i can stay with you to see do you think that accounts for what people say the growth of polarization in radicalization among. pakistanis in used to be in and need confirmation from you people would say was from the poor segments of society now it's moving up into the middle class is that a fair characterization. i think if you can you can judge it by this particular incident it's an isolated incident and the thing is the main the root of the problem is the u.s. occupation of afghanistan you have to realize there is more pashtuns in pakistan than in afghanistan so it affects pakistani society just as badly as it does in afghanistan and every drone attack every time there is civilians killed which is on

a daily basis these days it sets back. to you know to. improve the u.s. image every every person killed every single drone attack it's just sad to see all effort back and it's going to make it much more difficult to know months of billions of aids or. can ever fix that ok in robert you know in looking at the sort of cold war on terror i mean i was explained to my my colleagues here at on the cross talk a little you use the word war on terror i love the way you. are a war on terror i know how you feel about that term and it's why you. don't usually use it all but yeah ok anyway i was explain to my colleagues here in the crossfire team in a phrase that came from the vietnam war we had to destroy the village to save it and is that what's happening to pakistan they did to win afghanistan the americans are willing to watch pakistan be to stabled.

you know i don't think the americans on the stand pakistan it was very interesting that when richard holbrooke was appointed as the peace envoy peace quote unquote and boy to he was made peace envoy to pakistan and afghanistan not to pakistan afghanistan and kashmir because the real issue of pakistan is not about afghanistan it's about kashmir and as long as there is injustice in kashmir. the war in afghanistan will continue the war in afghanistan is about kashmir just as the war in the middle east is about palestine. and if you don't deal with injustice in kashmir you will not solve the problems of afghanistan i know this i am going to afghanistan in two days' time.

the problems of government on the problems of. the americans will not deal with this they will address. this ok lisa i know you so these are some expertise in this are you would you agree with. that and i think that's an over that's an oversimplification of the kashmir issue and the history of indo pakistani tensions the u.s. simply can't just come in wave its magic wand and hand kashmir to pakistan that's not going to happen now i will acknowledge that part of the problems we face is that the pakistan military establishment sees that the support for these terrorist groups groups like lashkar e tayyiba. gesture mohammed that has been helpful to pakistan in sort of bleeding india in question here and they're reluctant to give up this drool of militancy support for religious extremism to use as a tool against india and frankly in the form of the taliban in afghanistan to

assist assert their. strategic interests and that's part of the problem and i think if we look at the fact that just this week pakistan has released from detention a terrorist leader carissa a fool out of the head of harkat all jihadi islami this is a terrorist who has been implicated in assassination attempts on benazir bhutto on president bashar if he's been implicated in a coup attempt in one thousand nine hundred five in pakistan so he's clearly an enemy of the pakistani state now if pakistan cannot keep this kind of dangerous leader this threat to pakistan itself in jail i think that raises some very serious questions about the overall law and order situation in pakistan and you know the pakistan military may believe that his relief serves some kind of tactical interest trying to control these militant groups which have become the. stein's monster for

pakistan however i think that in the long run his release only weakens the authority of the state and in the long term that's going to be more instability in pakistan which is not only dangerous for pakistan it's frankly dangerous for the entire world all right i'm going to jump in right here we're going to go to a quick break and after that break we'll continue our discussion on pakistan stay dark. and. i got out of the military in nineteen sixty six i got out because the things i saw the things i was doing and this reason said we were given for doing them it was

a personal protest. during the vietnam war and into war movement emerged that altered the course of history this movement didn't take place on college campuses but in the barracks and on ships penetrated elite military colleges like west point and it spread throughout the battlefields of vietnam. today few people know about the g.i. movement against the war in vietnam. after the army we always said free the army or fun travel and adventure but it really meant the army. would be so much brighter. moon of the sun from the sun still crashing.

don't. you. want to. welcome back to the cross not going to remind you we're talking about pakistan's instability. but before we see how pakistan has wrecked when it comes to terrorism a failed state pakistan's economic situation has deteriorated to the brink of collapse during two thousand and ten and now with this nation also month busier the political situation reaches the point of despair for the major ruling party according to that map of croft pakistan is world's second terrorism risk country

while some made it is at the top iraq and afghanistan poll pakistan on the terrorism risk index list thus there is an ongoing frustration that pakistani officials are not doing enough to combat terrorism groups in the country tribal areas and the obama administration has decided to offer pakistan more military intelligence and comic support to intensify u.s. efforts to forge a regional peace peter. ok dan i'd like to go to you i mean the headline always is this is that the pakistanis aren't doing enough ok that's of the american perspective is here and of course it's dealing with the tribal areas in the border of afghanistan but i mean speaking from the pakistani point of view they know the americans are not going to stay for ever and afghanistan and they want to make sure that they have a stake in the outcome of whatever the outcome is because the americans will not stay forever i mean why doesn't the americans understand that because it's it's

pakistan's backyard that's their region and they want to have a stake in the outcome of what's going to happen in afghanistan i mean the united states cannot determine that alone. i think i'm going to go back to would draw but was saying earlier the americans just do not understand the region. as you said rightly pakistan has already pocket pakistan has done more than enough this is a public view in pakistan that we've done more than enough we've lost more soldiers then the u.s. and nato combined we've lost more civilians than than many other countries combined and we've done more than enough now what pakistan is decided to do now and if it isn't doing it should be doing is to look out for its own interests in the region and we know that the war is not going to go on forever if it's not going to be you know any time soon then it's probably going to be two thousand and fourteen or you know not long after that and we have to say here so if they're not doing this they should be doing this they should be looking out for their interests in the

brownstone and they should be ensuring that the next government that comes into iran is sun is one that does not allow india the space that it currently enjoys and which it uses to destabilize pakistan by channeling weapons and money into pakistani territory and we've seen in fact recently i think it was last month that a senior below which terrorists was called the red handed trying to smuggle in weapons he's still in jail is one of the bookies and. there's you know this is this is the clearest evidence that there can be every major terrorist attack in pakistan can be linked directly back to a bonus and so that is the problem and pakistan should do whatever it takes to ensure that once the u.s. does pull out of run the sun does not become goes back to what it used to be before the u.s. occupation which which was secure on ordinary western borders were secure there's no terrorism coming into pakistan from of from of counsel and we need to go back to that ok what do you think about that robert because then i can get a maze and go ahead crosstalk roles jump in go ahead yeah. yeah i agree that

pakistan should look after its own security interests but i think pakistani leaders need to ask themselves whether providing a permissive environment for militant groups that are increasingly turning their guns on the pakistani state is really the best way to move forward and ensure their own regional security and position but look the us also has to look after its security interests and it also needs a friendly government in afghanistan that will not provide al qaeda safe haven so that it can conduct another terrorist attack like it did on nine eleven so i think the key here is bringing us in pakistan security interests into alignment with each side recognizing it has legitimate security interest in afghanistan ok robert i heard you say i had. your eyes side because you know it's typical of the heritage foundation to think pakistan is. another american country it's not. i am i going to fight israel and there are very far it is

a do yeah man i finished speaking please would you just let me spend if you permit me to where i want to say. thank you i'm one of the few foreigners and i know why she likes pakistan not because of british empire which caused many problems and caused great grief and great. suffering. i think that pakistan has many problems it has to deal with. economically corruption for example it's a very corrupt country every policeman i meet in pakistan wants to shake me down for money every government official in pakistan seems to be corrupt are not a friend of the pakistani authorities but i do like parties and i think pakistan is a very intelligent well read people and i think they know the history of their

country much better than the heritage foundation does and probably better than i do i think that partly cia and deserves justice. if i may just finished speaking if that's permitted by the heritage foundation robert deserves justice in thank you i think it deserves justice and. and i think that the history of afghanistan particularly with darren law in which you will all about motormouth darren who was the man who threw the frontier between what is now pakistan and what is now afghanistan i think that there is a great sorrow and i think that many people in pakistan who are pushed through now . i would feel that they are also asked and you know the story of the

dunes are in fact. i think that you or your story that you are telling us is very good but i don't go telling the whole story and i think that. russian listeners would understand it very well all i will say is that i think that . pakistan is not treated fairly and we should treat it and we must do so in tokyo corruption and so on which is completely correct of course corrupt is totally corrupt pakistan is a very corrupt country and its police force is corrupt and its army is corrupt and its intelligence service is corrupt i will say all these things and they are crew ok but i think that that is not the whole story and i don't think you are telling the whole story lisa gant said earlier in the program that pakistan has done enough how do you reflect upon that because from its point of view of what it's been doing or helping america fight its war on so-called war on terror robert what do you

think i mean the pakistanis. again pointed out last more people involved in this i mean it's the economy was never in really good shape and now it's even worse. and you have a lot more radicalization within the country and a lot of people say it all goes back to america's war on terror. yeah well first let me say i also share robert's fondness for pakistan i served there is a diplomat in the mid ninety's in fact the month after i arrived a group that nobody had heard about before called the taliban was. taking over in khandahar just imbarked in khandahar afghanistan and let me just say that that pakistan i don't believe that if a liberal governor like someone to see or was murdered that there would be any support for that murderer so i unfortunately i think pakistan we are seeing a rising wave of extremism we could talk about you know why that is and what that

might relate to in terms of the war in afghanistan but i think the fact is we would all like to see pakistan prosper. and be able to be a part of civilized society and that is what we are working toward in terms of what pakistan is doing in the war on terrorism yes it has lost over twenty five hundred soldiers in this fight since nine eleven fighting in the tribal areas many people don't realize that thousands of pakistani civilians have been killed in terrorist attacks throughout pakistan so pakistan is suffering from this regional terrorism that we see. but at the same time i think there is some ambiguity within the pakistan security establishment on the best way to deal with militancy and there are some in the security establishment who believe that the taleban could serve pakistan's interest again in afghanistan if as you say the americans to perth

the region before it is stabilized and that is why i think it was a mistake for president obama to announce that the u.s. would begin withdrawing forces in june twentieth eleven i believe that was a mistake i believe the administration realizes that was a mistake it is now backing away from that date and is now talking about twenty fourteen as the end of combat. operations but also making clear that the u.s. will have a strong commitment to afghanistan over the long term that it will not be leaving the region like it did in the early ninety's after the soviets departed ok dan what do you think about that i mean you know we keep going back to all the woes of pakistan and lease it currently and it goes all the way back to the american occupation of afghanistan kashmir was thrown in here too but if the effective end of the occupation of afghanistan would be a net positive for everybody in the region would you agree or disagree with that statement i think it's a matter of the wind. that will eventually going to dictate what happens next

and. the thing is i kind of agree with what lisa was saying earlier about the pox on security interests and because of the united states need to be in tune and my point is that pakistan has done more than what it has been asked for or what has been required in the past ten years but pakistan's legitimate security concerns have not been addressed and that includes the indian presence in afghanistan they need to be put a leash on that includes fixing the great wall at least pressurizing india on the human rights violations in kashmir the issue one be fixed straight away but at least the least they could have done was last summer we had over two hundred students youngsters killed in the streets by indian gunman indian parliament or three soldiers and there's not a word of condemnation from the from the u.s. right now to do something we've seen only lately i'm going to jump in here many thanks to my guest today in beirut though by and in washington and thanks to our

viewers for watching a few darkie see you next time and remember across top. down the official t. haply cation. i pod touch from the japs to. life on the. video. feeds now in the palm of your. machine on the t. dot com. well

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