for the full story we've got it for the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers. with. just about three thirty lines of russian president dmitri. ratification documents for the new. treaty with the u.s. putting the unprecedented nuclear deal with an immediate reach. russia's parliament is mulling over a bill to revamp the country's terror security following the deadly bombing which killed thirty five in the capital. scene that a u.s. investigative committee. for the financial meltdown most of them still remain in place. and a common link experts are drawing parallels between the. egypt's.

revolution. in the last decade. recent leaks concerning palestinian israeli relations have cast a shadow on the so-called peace process and his guests now get caught in a brutal sparring match over the continued middle east conflict. talk is next. and you can. still. come across an archive of your lapel a huge embarrassment for a last historic opportunity the release of over sixteen hundred documents covering a decade of negotiations between the israelis and palestinians show a pattern of deceit powerlessness and despair. and you can.

start. to discuss the meaning of these leaked documents i'm joined by omar badar in washington he's a political scientist and promotes human rights in miami we go to each eye flasher he is the host that israel national radio and director of cooma and in tel aviv we cross to my one mary she's a freelance journalist and writer and another member of our crosstalk team on the hunger all right folks cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want if i go to my in in israel in tel aviv i'm going to be very blunt here after reading these leaked documents it seems they mean one of the biggest lies of the last decade has been exposed for what it is is a lie and that is is that we have heard repeatedly in mainstream media from the state department all the way to the government in tel aviv successive governments that the israelis have no partner for peace in the middle east that's a blatant lie and we know what now by these authentic documents my goodness the

palestinians were willing to give away not just a kitchen sink but the whole farm for peace and the israeli said no. yeah i think that the papers prove without a doubt that really it's the palestinians i had no partner for peace the palestinians were more willing to go to my all and nothing seemed good enough or as are all but land land land land that's what it comes down to the israelis don't care about these they want as much territory as they can get and so you know what we've been seeing is the israelis dragging their feet and building settlements at the same time they're building facts on the ground so the more they have on the ground you know the less they have to give away and that seems to have been the strategy. you know what this shows is that the it's very interesting i almost want to say that seems to me the leak must have come from the p.a. that appears trying to distance itself from these papers but really they will serve

the p.a. and the outside international community because it makes the p.a. you know it runs the risk of making that hey look pathetic at home while sympathetic abroad and it's one more piece of evidence that israel is not really a partner in the peace process and that the world needs to step in and help the palestinians build a state just like the one helped israel build a state in one nine hundred forty seven you know with the u.n. vote in one nine hundred forty seven that that established that helped to establish the homeland for the jewish refugees now we have palestinian refugees that you know need a state desperately and israel is not going to get someone mentioned the fate of the. maybe the fate of the palestinian people when it comes to international community but he said if i go to you in miami how do you reflect upon what my just said because it look you know we've always heard i'm going to american so i grew up always being told that the powers these really have no real partner i mean these

these documents certainly say to tell a completely different story how do you reflect upon the documents and what in our what our first guest had to say. well i think the documents definitely show that when israel demands to own its capital the people believe it and that even our challengers will say you're right this is your capital city and i think that israel should continue to say that about all its land the land that was given to it by the way of the sons out of land that is our historical homeland the land that we were dispossessed from and therefore we just have to be strong and tell the truth which is this is our land and we should not give it away and i think the proves that the palestinians will back down if you just say the truth which is this that it's yours but if you look at the documents used to you let me say jack if you look at the documents these were negotiations if you read the documents these are negotiation so then again that's being disingenuous because if you don't believe in these negotiations why are you pretending to be involved in these big oceans you can't

really have it both way go ahead me i go ahead go ahead agree with you one hundred percent i do if you want me if you want to just go there no you really. there is no claim to. really know. well if that's what you think. and that's why it's really gentlefolks you just answer now so i'll talk about international law in a minute omar you've been listening to this discussion going on crosstalk early on in the game omar jump in. well i mean look what you said is absolutely correct there is a peace process that is based on the idea that israel would withdraw from the occupied territories to facilitate the creation of a palestinian state that's the entire idea behind the two state solution now i'm hearing rabbi fleischer correctly he's basically saying that he opposes the entire idea of a two state solution which actually puts him outside of the mainstream consensus internationally on how to resolve this conflict and that is perfectly fine i mean

if he wants to say that we don't want to lose state solution this is a big terms like international consensus i know that the arabs as in the streets of the arab countries are very upset and i don't know radical leader is the risk you know that he said that is you know the. eastern jerusalem have said over what is their size they want to have the palestinian state brings us a very interesting home a mother to run another interesting point and it was probably no gentlemen tired of the. freedom you should please release another thing that was brought up in these here and and it was mentioned earlier like we have in israel what's ok ok what kind of role the palestinian authority was playing here because it looked like it was very much upon of the united states as well and i want to talk about the fate of the palestinian authority later but again you. brings a very good point i think the arab street is angry in the greater middle east and they should be upset because all of america's dictators are in trouble right now ok

good let him rise up let them have democracy and the palestinians should have a little lot more democracy too so it really kind of belies the point here is if it usually doesn't want to have. a radical liberal you know i think what this will be one thing here we all have to agree with and which is really seem to require all i have to deal with that there was there ok i'm going to get out of the right i'm going to get in i will be running or are you saying we're not going to get it under israeli occupation and we're not changing the subject you know what i was going to do with palestine and they're going to they're not going to get it under palestinian occupation either they're not going to get another pal. so you know occupation you mean i mean i don't know if you know your idea of a russian emigre him is to be occupied by the israeli i mean i mean i mean why what is there i love the sign there if i want i'm sorry i was in the colony and he was out to turn that of she didn't see america. i'll tell you how well you know if they have national liberation movements and friends of war i mean you know you're with

these new since you've been here because the are you just. have to jump in go ahead you have the floor look if if you're going to invoke historical terms and you're going to invoke thousands of years of history to say that some sort of. religious connection to the land from two thousand years ago justifies returning to it then certainly that should apply to the palestinians as well now i don't think that the rabbi actually supports palestinian refugees right to return to their homes in haifa and elsewhere and that's the double standard here is that if you don't want to two state solution i suppose when i say israel the reality is on the side so i saw out the arab world the arab countries would let arabs live normally in their countries you know it's so funny how you folks are talking about arab rights to these i'm not saying that as i almost anyone they don't how are you doing there who don't have rights in mind give them arab rights throughout the arab world stop policy issues where john lewis designed it on this road when we're talking about who was on this program this and i live and i took our nation for the jewish week

of how i was listening out and we're not going to give them up we have right he said i really wish and we still have the rights based on some of the students on the real saratoga as this is this is their allies there's also you see how denying it now mr feist are you listen for a second don't you see how denying the palestinian right of this are in. equivocal to denying the gym's right to self determined how can you say that this group over here cannot self-determined but the jews can it danger is the jewish right to help determine oh i was so nice when i was a regular that the stones were doing our job you know please you know this is not on this show and they will speak at least this cannot be reduced to a competition between religious claims based on who you think god gave this land to you know it's pretty clear to any fair minded person that if that's what you reduce it to you're going to have internal conflict not. there are extremists who don't mind but i think most of us sensible people want to come to some sort of reasonable peace agreement between both peoples in which case the proper framework is not

religion and history but actually international law and international law is extremely clear about the fact that the palestinian territories the west bank and gaza and east jerusalem are illegally occupied and israel has no title to them whatsoever that's the simple reality that has to be acknowledged now if you don't like that if you want to say think omar jews should be able to live anywhere you want the same should be if you are leaving out of the fact that. i think that it's very important not you know state the case in such an equivocal terms when really a lot of things just that are simply not correct you know the last adjudication of the international long ago the translator not iraq which created iraq which created let me last finish please iraq syria and lebanon arab states and all it also created a jewish state you see it's fair to have twenty three arab countries in our region and one jewish each time this has to send the same time to do english programmes story this has nothing to do this program is an absolute disgrace i think jim is already in doing so for the united nations will never give up our claims to our

homeland and there's a double standard i didn't understand but i knew i was on the one hundred one so i said we managed to misread some of those are right clear i know you don't want to answer anything there is no such thing as a legal thought about the what is it which one is that no i mean if you're going to some united nations creation of israel you have to accept the fact of the united nations thank you don't know if there is a legal or not it is the country that gives arabs the most freedoms i wish that egypt and syria would give a little bit of freedom to arabs like you are selling if you want to know what i am really really. do not do rail this program we're talking about the palestinian papers that have been leaked we've been talking about to behavior of the israeli government and the palestinian authority so can we stay on that topic. you know my community off if i actually wanted to interview him are you jumping in there we've got to rake content i don't know i am very angry every human rights situation every human rights organization in the world documents very thoroughly the flagrant abuse

of the palestinian rights under israeli occupation the idea that palestinians living under occupation have more rights than are arabs living in other arab countries that's completely laughable i mean look at the situation in gaza where you have one point five million people making the morning chris i wish you would be in touch with some of the people that i know in beirut who taught talk to me about the life of fear that they live over there on their cars and the iranian right i'm going to be right here we go to the break when we come to the break we'll continue our conversation on these leaks documents i hope you stay with. me. and. we'll come to the. need to survive and speaks see shampoo and change a lot more regenerative life support seems just from our. special exercise

equipment flights to fly and sink a logical prep keeps the stream off the brain during a break for months now and she update here on r.g.p. we've got the future covered. we use special goldfish and accessory quitman to. replace. one. became their nominee. as it should and those people referred to in the previous live. from comes. to soak in a free flight. and

. welcome back across no compu to mind you were talking about documents from the middle east peace process. but first let's see what russians think about the conflict. just the talks the release of palestinian documents my team is the course of negotiations between israelis and palestinians over sixteen hundred documents detail more than a decade of negotiations between the sides the documents reveal polis to me a negotiator is where willing to accept israel's annexation of old news jerusalem the public opinion agency live out of russians to which side of the israeli palestinian conflict they have sympathy sixty four percent said two neither fourteen percent sided palestinians and the nine percent israel is many believe the

leaks good rearrange future negotiations. ok and i did change gears a little bit and i had to go to omar here we've talked about israel or tried to talk about israel's involvement in these negotiations they make marks much success on the first part of the program so let's take a look at the on the palestinian authority what do you think needs to happen here because of read the papers very carefully it's the israelis and the palestinian authority basically trying to undermine hamas a good a great deal of it it talks about that there and in some of the very nasty activities on the part of american intelligence british intelligence as well i mean what do the palestinians have to do now because when i pointed out you know maybe the palestinian authority will come out on top on this and i tend to think not and considering now i will invoke the greater middle east considering tunisia egypt and other places the palestinians deserve better like so many other people in the in the arab world don't we need now to pursue an election a new election for

a new leadership among palestinians that include gaza and get a leadership that can actually speak about the right because i mean even during these papers with the right of return the palestinian negotiators just threw that away as well i mean we need to get a new slate a real government pretty real negotiators that can really express the interest under international law and the palestinians. look at may very well be actually time for new elections tonight and i'd like good on my answer to go to ok yet it may very it may very well be time for new elections and i do think that some of the revelations are actually damaging to some extent to the credibility of the palestinian leadership i mean we all knew that there was security cooperation we did not know that it went to the extent of actually targeting some hamas members we all knew that there would be territorial compromises but we did not expect that the time when the palestinian leadership would be publicly criticizing israeli settlement expansion in certain areas that would they would have privately conceded some of those areas so that is damaging to their credibility but i think it's unclear whether this would actually in itself lead to the collapse of the

palestinian authority i mean many people have actually suggested that i don't think that's actually quite sufficient what it does is emphasize the need for a game changer it restricts their political space for maneuvering so they can can no longer afford to keep bending to american pressure to offer more concessions and more negotiations in the face of israeli intransigence so i think what is needed at this point actually is pressure preferably american you know from from american policy makers on israel to be more flexible and to take the peace process more seriously have to actually be willing to allow for the creation of a viable palestinian state i think that's where the pressure ought to be focused it's very optimistic i knew i could never happen i had imagined i would like to go to you now you said you wanted to jump in and say yeah yeah i don't think that we're going to see what large scale protests are riots rise up in the west bank and part of the reason is because palestinians now that israel would be happy to go back and re occupy the west bank and that would pave the way for more settlements

and a longer occupation and that will just maintain the status quo what i think we're going to maybe see happen here and you know the peers are ready laying the groundwork for this is that the theory is going to start turning towards the u.n. that the arab countries have just sent in draft u.n. resolution draft. seeking to condemn the settlements you know he has a. no secret that they hope to see a palestinian state declared this year by september you know ireland has just upgraded the palestinian diplomatic mission there following france and spain in the latin american countries you know recognize go ahead and recognize a state if they can use this. and they can use it while then they might change the game but not as far as now they might be turning to the u.n. if i go to you i mean is it possible i mean let me can i ask a question please if you think it's possible way that these these leaks these

leaked documents is that could turn into israel's greatest nightmare because at the most pliant palestinian leadership they would do anything it wanted for virtually anything except become zionist i mean israel may regret it its negotiating stance of the last decade because by intransigence they actually destroy whatever party they have and some of the things we just heard was that you actually might get a palestinian government authority that could actually do much better than what we've seen over the last ten years i don't think that that's really what the documents are showing i think that they're showing that there's a great divide in palestinian society and there's really a good cop in a bad cop i think you have. zero backs hamas and they're interested in leaking these documents. who have a you know staged approach to kind of getting rid of israel and therefore you really have a conflict between two ways to kind of get rid of israel and israel showed itself as being a tough negotiator that's what we do it in the middle east but i want to agree with

my colleague omar that i really think that american involvement is not a good idea what i don't understand is why omar says now let's use the americans on our side i say forget it let's push the west let's have direct negotiations discussions between the tribe of the jewish people the tribe of the arab peoples we are middle eastern peoples we are really cousins we are related we don't need the west to get involved. i think that they are not interested in regional news and i'm going to tired of the borders has not all these countries and this whole you know new occasional market i see it when i go to you know i mean one of the biggest problems is when is it legal or if i could go to. learn about people who want peace on both sides versus extremists who are happy to continue this fight on on both sides this is not about jews versus arabs and it's not actually you can say that you should do well if that was the world i don't see where all sides are actually it's not even you don't have a balance of power that allows for both sides to negotiate on their own you have one party israel which has control over everything and you have the palestinians

who are relatively powerless in the face of israel's military superiority on the ground so to say that they should be left for themselves to negotiate obviously will produce no more incentives really on the nation is a very convenient to frame the issue that nobody would be very interesting asian if you frame it in any way as you can redeem it that way you shape means you don't want an evolving of international law right you want you want just to have a brawl and really to push these people out of the way saying to me i don't really i only want and that's what you really want to do because you don't want anybody watching what you're doing right now not not at all. i think that i think the little statements are fallacious i think that you know israel has a tremendous success with its arab minority i lived with arabs when i was young i still live with today i think that the arabs i want to stay in israel are going to be welcomed in our country but nobody's going to destroy our country from inside nobody's going to be on the record when i go to mars no matter what we do we go from here we're doing here anybody else quite quite the process quite

quite frankly people like rabbi fleischer are about you know i hear him talk a lot about israel's enemies and i think people like him are actually the most dangerous people for israel because the people who are keeping israel from coming into the us i will agree with the palestinians in which peace would last are the ones who are actually endangering the long term interest of israel exum to a peaceful agreement and the occupation allow the palestinians to exercise their right to self-determination that is what is needed so quite frankly the only thing that there is to say at this point about the peace process this is that unless there is a game changer there is no new you know the right wing coalition government in israel has proven that it is incapable of coming to a sensible peace agreement with the palestinians voluntarily so there has to be a game changer there has to be some shift in the equilibrium locally domestically regionally or internationally that forces israel to take these negotiations more seriously and to understand that there are consequences to continuing the occupation of the domination of the palestinian people my if i go to you i mean we want to be on line if i can go to you in the television like you or i and it's right now you can't have netanyahu and abbas sat down and shake hands and start

talking i mean after all of these documents right now i mean what is the game changer because i mean i can't imagine that right now and i can't even imagine the same negotiating team i think may i make sure she get on an airplane and go back to washington d.c. he made a complete ass out of himself skews my language ok and so did the united states i mean where do we go here now that's why i can't saying that you know the palestinians are going to turn to the u.n. because that's the only possible option i say i think the peace process is that i don't think that we're going to have a. warlike some people have been saying. i don't see any other option certainly neither the israelis or the palestinians are ready to build a binational secular democratic state like i personally would like to see. so i think the only option now is for the international community to step in just like it did in one thousand nine hundred forty seven with the un vote that helped establish the state of israel i don't understand why the israelis keep saying that

the only way we can find an agreement to make a palestinian state is through the peace process because that's not how israel was me there was no peace process here in one nine hundred forty seven that made israel the arab states did not agree to the un vote there is no you know the palestinians weren't consulted there was no agreement so why not go ahead and establish a palestinian state now when it's so clear that this current israeli government is never going to make demands that this government is hell bent and now excuse my language how bent on continuing to build i don't see it any other way. you say what do you think about all this i mean your country is run. even if it's ok if you showed a lot of things behind the scenes israel is a little embarrassed but it still does got what it wants right i mean it gets land and it just keeps saying we need to keep the process going process going that's the plan though isn't it. i think i think that you're right that it's embarrassing that

we continue this process which really is a continuous failure of forty years i think that we should stop and ask the people the regional peoples what they really think is right i think the jewish people will say we have a claim to this land it's not biblical only it's a story that's archaeological it's legal it's international law and i think we should make a simple claim this is our land let's live with that with us so there isn't any connection to start our claim let's remember i mean in america he also tells us men are logical and i want them and i want to work on time point well i want to make one point the difference between me the difference between me and my colleagues on this program is that they believe in a new form of imperialism they think that the world should get together and for solutions on the region i say look if. i really would like to do you that was. here i mean i know it is a very good word for this program here many thanks my guest today in washington and in tel aviv and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember crosstalk.

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