did you meet with the list members have begun to unite hundred figuring no well mohamed el baradei the former international atomic energy agency chief is well known internationally but those low profile at home loves being a rule says here the captain says he'll be the man to take the place of president hosni mubarak's if his only. where is the matter ukraine's prime minister's warders the search for a show up to sit through his nose is not being seen in public for six months. down the danish court has a quitter the free speech on service was charged with racist. critical comments made about islamic laws how to god sent the message granted that had an heiress

dominated by islam a culture more often although i suspect his remains a wonder and a muslim. right now pay to live on his gas debate how effective it is to export only in this democracy to achieve one country's dear political interests call stalkers up. if you can. follow me and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle is outside democracy promotion an oxymoron what is america's track record in the arab world and is invoking security interest over democracy the greatest haven for tyrants. to discuss democracy promotion i'm joined by teddy in paris he is

a writer and filmmaker and with we go to jeff perdue he is a post-doctoral fellow at aberystwyth university and author of american foreign policy and postwar reconstruction comparing japan in iraq and in durham we cross to bruce generals and he is a professor of public policy and political science at duke university and another member of our cross talk team yell on the hunger or a gentleman crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want take i'd like to go to you first in paris over the last two weeks. were saying events that we've never seen before in the arab world i liken it to the end of the soviet union it is a world history or storage moment as we're doing this program events are unfolding extremely almost out of control in egypt so i ask you to take what is america's track record in promoting democracy and expression is hot area right now in north africa and i'd like to name a few places to nisha egypt lebanon jordan where there is democracy that is not

recognize hamas hizbullah so it's a mixed game. democracy isn't a marsh it's not recognized at least by the united states and its allies and then the united states has been a huge impediment to democracy in the arab world since its inception since independence so what is its track record. its track record is very negative as many serious american historians admit to themselves throughout the cold war period when the big enemy was communism the united states not just in the middle east but also in south america it was prepared to tolerate tyrants dictators butchers of their people because it's there in cross with the end of the cold war. humanitarianism became one of the ideological pillars except in those countries where it wasn't convenient so we've seen in the middle east in particular. the

dictatorship in egypt which appears to be collapsing as we speak which has been there for the last twenty five to thirty years we have seen regimes over twenty years long in the matter of b.m. countries to miss morocco algeria we've seen the toleration of a completely authoritarian brutal monarchy in saudi arabia jordan itself has been reduced to the status of an israeli american protectorate and iraq has been occupied. the occupation of iraq had very little to do with democracy to force it have a great deal to do with the establishment of us again really now we have a waiver for a vote sweeping the arab world you talk about it was reminiscent of the fall of the soviet union i'm not so sure because that the mass involvement in that by and large

was limited it reminds me more off the wave of revolutions that took place in europe in eight hundred forty eight revolutions for democracy eight hundred forty eight or to revolutions against autocracy democratic revolutions trying to find a different way of governments and that's that is what we are seeing very courageously. very interesting they lasted too long i do and you know eighteen forty eight are interesting but it was a strong reaction eight hundred forty eight jeff if i can go to you a few days ago hillary clinton the u.s. secretary of state came out and said that a country like egypt a great country she said egypt needs more democratic reform isn't that a bit rich after thirty years of paying off the egyptians in the sum of sixty billion dollars basically without any kind of accountability i mean again you know and if i can expand upon that watching c.n.n. and b.b.c. they're just cheering this on when those governments were all at the very the

pillars of supporting this very horrible regime and people that knew anything about the regime just knew how terrible it was and now we're turning around saying we're so happy what's happening it's hypocrisy is just outrageous i wouldn't say so i think that's when you talk about democracy promotion you need to adopt do it respectfully you need to look at it from a political perspective perspective of values let's say norms carried by democracy and perspective of moral let's say material interests so security interests or economic interests and what i'm trying to say here is that. during the cold war even after that there is still seem to be this seems to give paradox in supporting or let's say be friendly to non-democratic regimes while at the same time promoting democracy in d.c. the same very countries. through various programs of democracy assistance usually implemented by american governments all in non-governmental organizations i think

that if you look at this from and you take into consideration that you deal with two different time scales one is stick to me and the security where you need to address very immediate concerns was if you want to and the only one is more in the longer run where you tend to what you want to do is to try to see values and norms democracy values and norms in this case and you hope that these will be shared by the syrian society and eventually the political society of this not democratic regime and little by little you know you could argue and i think that what we've witnessed his little by little geese democracy assistance programs thoughts about fruits and whatever was did we see that he did all that we see that at all in tunisia i mean i can on a fear radical level i'm going to say what you're talking about but my goodness i mean you know it was not too long ago that ben ali was you know he was a guest in the white house and he's called a great friend of the united states ok i mean really i mean it's still

a bit rich if i can use that term again right here bruce if i can go to you i mean all of america's friends in this are can i just say something all right go ahead i want to go to something very quickly go ahead if bin ali if bin ali was still such a big friend of the united states all from you know what the western world generally speaking you probably if it was all about supporting. authoritarian regimes in the name of security interests or economic interests then the now you wouldn't be in dubai you would be in washington and on the parties ok well you know that well that seems to be the ultimate safe haven for well. probably other dictators going there as well bruce if i can go to you i mean can you have a dual policy like that i think in theory it sounds very nice but if you look at weeki leaks and you look at these other sources of information i mean the united states was it's going to be just stay with the people you know if they stay with the devil you know what k. and that's exactly what they did with tunisia and then they turn around and their

entire democracy project blows up on them in lebanon though it's again against the will of the people there clearly i don't care what people think about hezbollah it is a popular. political party in the country it's up for the people to decide and not again hillary clinton dictating what kind of democracy she people should have because everything the united states has done in that region last forty years is just create extremism. yeah you look i think you're identifying some good points i'm not sure if i agree with the way that you're portraying i mean there's no question you know that the united states hasn't lived up to this great espousal of always being for democracy you know the reality for any country whether it's today or historically you know has had a balance off the principles you stand for the security interests that you have in the light you know and what we've been seeing i think is as as as your previous guest was saying was part of what's happening in egypt and a sort of separate it was happening in tunisia was in fact fed you know by this development of civil society by n.g.o.s and not just american many indigenous many

european as well that helped to develop the networks you know at the same time you're right that the united states was sort of still keeping our support with as it was often said you know they may be an s.o.b. but there are so be and the problem is there's this old expression you know those who make reform impossible make revolution inevitable you know and a certain extent you see that playing out. this wasn't predicted by experts everybody knew egypt was unstable but there's not an expert out there journalist academic intelligence person whatever who said that things were going to really blow up in tunisia and in egypt now and i think that we really have to see where they go people are demanding i think three things they're demanding greater freedom both for their individual lives and for ability to affect their government they're protesting it's massive corruption the mubarak regime to vent all the regime and they want to knock opportunity this is mostly you know young males out there who

want to offer tunis in their lives the reality is that you know you mentioned hizbullah as well has a lot of popular support in certain segments of lebanon there's no question about it but you know the notion that somehow they're going to represent all the people they're not going to impose themselves and i'm not quite confident about that either in the same is true you know from us what you originally won its election. on the basis of speaking to the corruption of the palestinian authority you know the injustices the economic problems that were there but then when they began to rule they ruled with an iron fist of their own were oppressive their own people so what we criticize what the united states is doing we shouldn't sort of make out is some you know glorifying force a lot of these other groups they've got their flaws as well ok tedi if i go to you i mean still at the same time i mean what is the reputation of the united states as we go through this transition here i mean do the people in the region looked at the

americans as being done thomas jefferson you know i mean the great supporters of of democracy after supporting their dictators for so many dick decades. well not in the arab oil and certainly not in south america where you've also had a wave of democracy over the last ten to fifteen years which has brought new governments and new social movements and to changing the relationship of forces there quite decisively if i can just sort of come back to one point it's not a question of whether we like has apollo whether we like or agree with every doctrine called hamas or idealized and that's not the point the point is permitting the people in that region to decide what happens when hamas won the elections in palestine sanctions were imposed on it it's money was stopped and the west refused to recognize a democratic election because they were hoping to push the p.l.o. through and we now know why with the publication of the palestinian

a person of the p.l.o. leadership it was in the pocket of the united states and now we know also of these railings to such a disgusting extent that it's horrified people in the arab world and so they actively promoted and tried to defend a corrupt palestinian leadership against hamas even though hamas had one then they tried to destroy hamas as they did hezbollah by encouraging very sorry to enter a we're going to have to go i wish you were going to go to a short break after a short break we'll continue our discussion on exporting democracy stay with her. story. the system that made him was the warnings out. children entirely it's nice to

democracy a symbol of ethics reform and desperate ambition jealousy in the first presidency. some. special coverage cartoons. the more people we killed the happier our officers were it got to be like a game like young people to see who could chill the most people and the different ways you could prove maybe peace killed would be i can't you know appears now if you brought back some of those years you know where we have the most years they would get the most fierce in-tray you should be rich overnight human children and five men around the circle over no compliment for him succeed. same outrage by search for some of the people whom the currently the most of the elite.

is easy. to. see. the any kind of a story. illegal you want to keep the i. welcome across all computable through mind you were talking about the so-called democracy industry the n.e.p. . the a. but first let's see what democracy means to russians democracy for all democratic values are spreading all

over the world some countries dubbed them wall and terry in others the. simply imposed by the outside forces the public opinion agency led by dissent also questions what democracy means to them so do not percent see it as a comic prosperity thirty percent as freedom of speech or dance to belittle god or to seven percent men who were god democracy as truth lawfulness and direct elections still the latest events in tunisia make us wonder if west so-called democracy industry does really promote or its own interests. right jeff i'd like to go to you one of the things that happened when one of the reasons why ben ali was such a big friend of the americans in the west in general and any and we can look at what's going on in egypt and other countries in the region is because there are allies on the war against terror ok and that's always top of mind here and in the

the nonsense that spewed out about here is terror and that's terror and you know just terrifying publics in western media and it does it all of the time and there are these people are you know they may not be you know thomas jeffersons but you know they are going to be on our side isn't this really being shown is a complete exaggeration now because these tyrants created a fundamentalist group of people that may be inclined to terrorism and things like that i mean the lack of supporting our own ideals and values have actually created these so-called threats against us. walking we're talking about two different historical structures as well the immediacy of the cold war or let's say. what the united states needed to do during the cold war was to contain the u.s.s.r. in the u.s.s.r. in the region and hands you know started to cuddle some less than friendly regime or well totally non-democratic regimes in the case of bin ali and what's

going on in egypt like nothing that we should look at this from a more modern perspective if you keep talking about the past in a whole body was and so on meaning we never would i'm not talking about today i'm sorry about george bush is on war on terror and it seems like obama is the accepted it is well no i'm talking about what's going on today not the cold war. ok so well in this case i would say that there is a clear progression in the obama administration about democracy promotion and the discourse is not linked anymore to the war on terror of course you still have references to what is called a democracy peace theory and the fact that democracies don't go to war with each other. no would it mean that these emerging democracies in the middle east would be friendly to the united states offing he in this case history might not play in favor of the united states and what we might see is the image and self of some different more those of democracy which will not be the liberal democratic model

which we know in the west with an emphasis of on elections essentially and creating procedures and structures favoring elections between competing elites favoring individual freedoms what i'm trying to say here is that democracies very contested as a concept there is more than one type of democracy and that in order to sort of guess the outcome of democracy it is essential to look at the realities affecting the temperature rise as the democrat is in nation so where democracy is taking roots and look at you know the realities there and how democracy can adapt if you want to and we have competing models we talk a lot about islamic law islam democracy. so. we live in well i mean i mean jeff i mean you're right i mean this again that's very academic but i mean under eight years of bush and then under two years of obama we still see american understanding of democracy and i got to go to bruce here on this one to

protect american national interests ok it's a cover it's a cover for sure it's a cover to protect american interests that's why you know it can it's galling that hillary clinton will come out and say we need more democracy in egypt why couldn't she say that when she became secretary of state why couldn't a secretary of state said that twenty five or thirty years ago. if you can see the difference between obama and bush you know they're not really looking close i'm not going. to do that they're not now washington to the region ok i think they raised more or less the same now they're not one hundred eighty degrees but but but there are significant differences but when i come back to a point that tariq ali made because it's an important point you know during the cold war one of the huge mistakes that the united states made as we do is we kind of worked with or against this so the so-called third world was we lumped everything together as communism and marx that is marxism and we didn't see the way that nationalism and local factors and culture and all those things entered and so

in brazil i've been back and forth quite a few times i mean for you know for the president of brazil who came into office feared as a great last for this to have emerged with eighty percent popularity in his own country when he leaves office you know most leaders around the world would die for that sort of popularity and he demonstrated live the demonstrated that he that he was probers illian interest and he was prepared to work for them not always agree with the united states and elsewhere and the challenge we face i think in the arab and islamic world is very similar ok there are elements in my view you know of jihad of six trimix groups that frankly don't have the interests of the people you know the best measure of people all on their minds but with a nice nice to do do is to figure out how to have relations with different forms of political islam i think in both tunisia and egypt ultimately you know whether it's the muslim brotherhood in egypt or some of the political islam parties that have been trying to stamp out by the dictator tunisia they're going to emerge as part of the mix and we really need to figure out ways you know to work with them because

neither tunisia or egypt are these uprisings at this point at least anti-american this is not iran one nine hundred seventy eight seventy nine it may well go in that direction if the u.s. does some of the things you're saying that that it's doing but right now i think the obama administration you know is trying it's a very tricky balance and you can find you know contradictions. it fine but they're trying you know as they have since the president came into office when he went to cairo and he gave a speech about an awful lot of stuff going on there that doesn't make the headlines but there's been working with civil society groups and other groups in egypt and elsewhere to try to develop you know their ability to to be part of the political processes and i say we get the balance right but to say that it's all you know just about you know standing with old dictators i think right now this administration is trying to change it and change it in a way that leads to things that are really in the interest of the people because the united states can't control everything that happens in these countries in one

direction or any other entity a lot of for that either but they can influence because of their power and leaders teddy i think you had your hand you had your head down i was wondering if you if you were bored by a conversation or you were exasperated no no i'm not boy have i bet you know those well those see differences well those see differences i basically see an essential continue to be between the bush and obama administrations both domestically and in terms of foreign policy i don't think all that much is changed except for the mood to music and the recreate in terms of what is concretely being done in different parts of the world in afghanistan which we have mentioned obama is actually escalate to the war there have been more grown attacks on pakistan during the obama than in the entire eight years of the previous administration so wants to preserve

a balance and not to be taken in. by the rhetoric which is being thrown around i think essential e what is going on in the middle east today is sixteen lean potent if more bought a full suit will be a heavy blow for the united states regardless of who takes over because egypt was absolutely central to u.s. policy in the region. in order to keep the israelis happy we have discussed israel this state for some reason is our crow important the united states it backs it through thick and thin and often american interests get in tangled with what they see as israeli security interests in the region and that is one reason why that region and many many of its intellectuals and civil society groups have been extremely unhappy that palestine is the one colonial issue from the last century that remains resolved now in terms of political islam there is flarm has all

the colors of the rainbow you can find every current within these make world the united states is perfectly happy working with these missing turkey who are staunch supporters of nato and have been a central pillar of nato i don't think the muslim brotherhood in either egypt or tunisia will be all that different but what will be different if the demonstrators succeed in toppling mubarak is that egypt will for the first time in years be able egyptians will be able to decide on who they want to elect in that instance stream lee important and the choice there is much much more different than the choice you have in europe center left center right democrats republicans in the u.s. very little divides them in each of the gulf between the dictatorship and the people challenging it is huge so it's a very exciting prospect and of course it might well affect u.s.

relations with egypt if for instance just on one issue they decide to open the border with gaza they're not going to run our cars are to be trampled exactly you know jeff i mean i i didn't want to go too deep aaron israel because well first of all your program on that this week already but i mean again i mean in the course of two weeks we have this these events playing out in egypt we have. with lebanon i mean the entire security arrangement in the united states pursued over the last four decades in the greater middle east is in shambles now if in fact a study was said really at the center of american foreign policy interests in the region israel's security it may now be the least secure it's been in a very long time and it's because democracy is the idea and and people took it upon themselves i agree with what we heard earlier it's not anti-american yet we'll see where it goes but when we do hear what the people have to say we could have a very very volatile and we always say volatile of the greater middle east if these changes are actually come to fruition true or something that we would call

democracy you know the question is that it's not necessarily the case that the united states and i say should not be putting all our eggs in the mubarak basket there's no question about that and it's not necessarily the case that a new regime would be anti-american ok it really depends how this plays out what the forces are at work and the like but i think that this notion that there's just continuity is kind of if people that i say sometimes are only reading the right hand pages of a book and a lot of what i'm hearing is just reading the left hand pages ok well you know the reality is that the reality is that you know this administration that the bush administration basically gave the israelis a lot of blank checks ok but it was interesting this had some progress is ok. but it's really ok ok we have to stop on this point gentlemen ok many thanks to my guest today in paris and in wales and in durham and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time in remember cross talk to us. this

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