welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle the politics of demographics a recent pew research report predicts muslim populations around the world will increase significantly compared to other population groups for some of these findings are reason for grave concern for others it's a stormy kiko. to discuss the repercussions of muslim population growth i'm joined by anders graves and albert he is from the stop islamization of europe in manchester we go to mohammed shafique he is chief executive and founding member of the ramadan foundation and in brussels we cross to elizabeth called that she is senior advisor to the trans atlantic council on migration at the migration policy institute and another member of our crosstalk team on the hunger all right panel you can jump in anytime you want that is crosstalk rules anderson if i can go to you first an

interesting comment when we had the libyan leader khadafi to visit europe he went to italy on a two day visit and he's quoted in saying islam should become the religion of the whole of europe well not might happen one day but it won't be because of muslim muslim immigration is because of the secularization of a good parts of europe. yeah yeah but i also believe that we would the europe and also russia is going to be muslim if we don't do anything to stop it this number of soldiers show it even saying these numbers is too low because in denmark they talk about two hundred twenty seven thousand muslims now we haven't heard this these numbers for the last fifteen years or so i don't understand it and even then you start to stick they don't make statistic after religion so i don't understand how they can get these numbers that's another thing well if i can go to elizabeth and. russel's i relied quite

a bit on the pew research i found to be very good and reliable over the years and they estimate that as of two thousand and ten the report just came out only six percent of europe's population is muslim and they're predicting for two thousand and thirty eight percent. i mean what's the brouhaha here so i mean you have to look at you have to look at this in the much broader context and this is a global analysis as well so right so dry delving down into year you see the figures a much more nuanced and i think it's important right from the outset to point out that as the pew research center themselves this is not necessarily about religious muslims these are people who would self identify as muslim so that could mean in terms of ethnicity or in terms of social grouping this is not necessarily a religious demarcation so the number of religious muslims is likely much less you know muhammad if i say within your ok go ahead finish go ahead. i would just want

to point out that within europe the changes that would take place between twenty ten and twenty thirty will differ from country to country this isn't going to be a sort of an even sweep mohamed if i can go to you you know looking just pure research you could actually come to use it to whatever ends you want to i mean you can say oh my goodness the population growth is here and they really go into great detail is that we look they look at the demographics we look at a certain generation there can be if i can use the term prolific in their in their in their growth but then that's going to slow down dramatically after two thousand and thirty i just because different groups are in different demographic waters but nonetheless looking at this research i can see how people could jump to one conclusion or another. well i think what it demonstrates is that muslims are part of the d.n.a. of your utopian society have been for hundreds of years and will continue to be for hundreds of years there are people on the margins of society like like our guest who who think that islam or for islamization that islam is somehow taking over

western europe or europe it's deeply offensive it's not true muslims are happily living in countries for example here in the united kingdom we're very proud to be british we live in this country will born in this country we're happy to accept the will put on the christian country but we're also multi-faith society to recognise is people have the right to practice their faith live their lives according to their faith are this constant obsession with demonizing islam and muslims that it's become endemic within europe is deeply worrying not just for the muslim community but for the whole of europe and what it demonstrates you is a it's the same thing again and again that happened to the jews in iraq to the second world war it's the same sort of oppression in a run up to the holocaust and now we're having the same thing be labelled against muslims it's an acceptable these these sort of lies and these sort of propaganda that somehow muslims are here to take over europe is not true and i think people

who engage in such battles and such arguments are doing so from a point of prejudice and clearly a point of a color fascism ok and if there was a lot said there would you like to know i had. a really like to reply to it you say that it's the same as the juice on the second world war i don't know about the worse running around and burning the streets raping women and so on like they're doing copenhagen and also to have specific treatments. in germany they didn't so you can't come with this. conclusion. well i think what you've got to do is you've got to accept my friend then your whole argument of demonizing the muslims is it's just not true you know you can demonstrate. the jewel case is there are individual cases in copenhagen or anywhere else of criminals operating but to suggest the whole community the whole faith system is

responsible in some sort of way as you are doing is deeply responsible actually i think for example if you want to talk about child abuse why copenhagen danish people probably represents ninety five percent of the population so i think you need to start looking a bit closer to home for the problems in your society rather than just but i mean muslims because we're easy we're an easy scapegoat ok elizabeth i'm going to you and i don't let's go to our source has been sitting there very patiently at the same time if we can reflect upon this report elizabeth and angela merkel's comment about the failure of multiculturalism and least in germany i mean how do we find the mix right here because there is a long tradition of integration of different peoples in different societies i mean american we have a growing muslim community in the united states as well it's going to be very very small as a matter of fact by two thousand and thirty it will be the same size of the jewish community however you define it as you pointed out earlier in the united states but

still you have this you know hysterical in the united states about the growth of a minority community so i mean if we can go back to merkel's comments i mean in looking at this is this research or do we need to find a new way a new mix a new way of approaching this because it is causing a lot of hysterical and it does have a lot of political fallout as well. well i think there's a popular belgian or academic here who once told me you can't declare a policy failed until you've tried it properly and one of the arguments made is germany really only started active integration policies around a decade ago too so to announce what ten years later we failed in this endeavor seems a little premature there was a sense of the nine neglect in germany for at least one generation and that involved in this sort of exclusion of the children of migrants and poor educational outcomes that went addressed for an entire generation so you actually do have to invest a huge amount to to set those trends straight i think it's important also not just

to look at the negative trends which we have a tendency to do in europe we look at educational gaps we don't tend to look at the success stories and people who do. quite incredible things within a generation and. one thing that i do think is important is that this isn't just an integration policy for those who are rife if we're talking about we start talking about european values and social contracts that that applies to a whole communities and not just. how many want their go ahead no i just. mean this debate has been about foreigners versus europeans for those people of my generation who were born in in western europe who are proud to be british are proud to be a european citizen you know we are british we are european and so this argument that just because we are muslims or just because we follow the faith of islam that

somehow we're not acceptable in western societies is the problem this whole debate of multiculturalism has been about people giving up their faith or people giving up their way of life that's not going to happen if multiculturalism is about respecting each other having told once for each other yes disagreeing from time to time but having respect and tolerance then that. it's a good thing it should be celebrated but if multiculturalism is about the muslim community or the immigrants who come into any particular society given their culture or their ethnicity or their beliefs then that's that's not acceptable and that's a form of multiculturalism the people would oppose and there's a fine go to you know i mean your organisation i mean your beef with the day they don't foreigners in particular in your case we're talking about here is muslims they don't integrate or are they just as they just don't have a place in europe in your opinion. i don't see the muslims who want to follow the koran and follow it exactly they don't have any place in

europe and europe is not islamic and have not been muslim country. they have been here i think i think you know i think he's actually right or wrong that you need to ask you right i'm sorry would respect have been part of the d.n.a. of europe for centuries and to suggest a solution is really just. twenty of centuries deeply quite patronize you know i think it's wrong i mean i get it demonstrates that you're a man of the far right the you're a man you're closely associated with the far right than a mainstream society muslims are being part of europe for generations i do suggest there's some ominous signs of telling me to essentially. with century muslims if they have been in my country there have been they have been studying the real base in the last thirty years so this is not in centuries a well have been muslims have been muslims that have been muslims in bosnia and

that's all what we know about it and they were there because of there was many compiler wasn't i'm sorry but if they were if you all are this is the point peter that the friend from from the from cooper nagin some somehow thinks that the bosnian war was caused by the bosnian muslims not bite a newborn nobody deserves it demonstrates to you his agenda is about opposing islam opposing muslims always constantly attacking our faith i don't know you need to post i know you need to get all he's an associate himself if you are so she eighteen yourself would to serbians if you associate yourself with the massacres and the genocide that was committed bosnia that shows your true colors this is not what it's about that kind. of hero after a short break we'll continue our discussion on muslim population growth stay with arkie. you. steve.

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with mike's culture the no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune into a report on our. lead. and you can. start . to. welcome back cross talk i'm beautiful to remind you we're speaking about muslim demographics. and. students. but first let's see what russians think about islam well muslims take over the world a recent report spock's concerns for some claiming the growth rate of muslims double complete at the non muslims over the next twenty years researchers suggest immigration and hot fertility rates are the reasons but will this date apostacy lam

a phobia already high around the world the public opinion agency live out of santa ask russians they consider this to be an aggressive. religion fifty percent of the respondents as said they do and another forty percent do not agree with that statement still the question today is what approach should be taken to face this reality. ok elizabeth in brussels i'd like to go to you and i to kind of change gears here because i think is something that's being over missed in this report is what spike my interest in it in considering the when we look at demographics of this report but we look at politics as well and we've seen politics very polarized and insincere all europeans are sort of the european aspect of this but you know if you look at you know you could say sixty percent of the population is a small anywhere but if they become politically active then they can be make a difference in politics in coalitions because most of these countries are going

parliamentary democracy so you'll have some people demonizing them as we've been and we've been pointed out on this program but other people say hey look we need the muslim voted for going to be able to create a coalition i mean could you see kind of turn the other way because these people are going to be citizens ok many of them are in the european union they have passports and they can vote and as their numbers get bigger even if it's two or three or four percent depending on the country they could be a game changer in a political situation. well i think it's there's no need to talk in the future tense i mean people of muslim descent already participate in politics to quite quite a deep degree in some countries certainly in the u.k. in germany the head of the green party is. the child protection parents you also have the mayor of rotterdam who is also muslim origin and you do have the significant numbers of muslims who are getting increasingly politically active so

they are part of the broad framework of of politics i think one thing that it's often overlooked is the fact that people might have a modern us opinion based towards muslims but also within the muslim community itself people have different political views people have different expectations of their own government as well so i think it's difficult to sort of look at. that there will be a particular party that a community will forge towards but similarly looking at the far right groups that have emerged in europe over the past decade it's too simplistic to say that they are all anti muslim in nature a lot of them have a broader framework in terms of being more broadly anti immigration being concerned about population levels in different countries but then also in central eastern europe you see far right groups focusing in on the roma population the indigenous ethnic minority within their countries and not really looking at muslim immigration a tool mohamed if i can go to you and me in britain do you come across. british

muslims that are tory and let you know and then others that are labor i mean you're not the same population i think it was but pointed out a very good thing is to do more views within the larger community too i mean you can't be buttonholed so easily. well traditionally the british pakistani and british muslim community have been aligned with the labor party here tony blair and gordon brown's political party but since the war in iraq people have been looking more to the conservative party and to the liberal democrats which is a third party here in the united kingdom what it really says to you peter is that british muslims are actively involved in politics we have over twenty seven ethnic minority members of parliament we have i think six or eight muslim members of parliament we have a member in a petition government cabinet of muslim descent we have a former member of gordon brown's cabinet as a member of the senior member of of his government what it demonstrates treats him

in particularly terms is that politicians recognise that muslims are an integral part of our societies there are extremists a lot sides as we've seen on the shore today who try to pull communities apart and what we've all got to do in europe is come together and not let the extremists drivers apart we've got common values we've got common ideals bring us together and that's what that's what we should be for casino and not what we know what divides us but rather what unites us anders who's you said something in the beginning of the program that i find interesting is that if you if your holy book is the qur'an you can't be a european citizen in a in a sense that i think all of us would agree on i don't understand that. ok i'll explain it. in the koran it's a lot of us who tell about how christians have to be mistreated cute. hot water in the stomach and so on put in teens we can't have a religion who have a book through how to kill their neighbor us. they have to take away these kind of

things from the qur'an pull out these things and then we can start to talk about integration but so long time the hell is how i mean you hear way through a coup for us to look to for us then they have to understand we can't have them here. ok mohammed do you want if they want to integrate they want to to accept our democracy is ok the no problem but what is another you all do have is a very small country we have a sign our democracy we are five yellow is knowing or do we have fifty million people yes so this five million people really are in denmark and we have tried for certain years to integrate the muslims we have just seen we nearly have a civil war in denmark. the police but i think you have to enjoy that if your eyes are on fire no no no no no protect the firemen or the m.p.'s before the drive into the ghettos priest is strong out of the ghettos because they have a cross in the car i'm so young so you can let us priest this race because he's

going to say i mean this is my music this is this is this is amiss and this is part of problem we we have we have wacky individuals like the mud from denmark who is making varied controversial comments about the a some mix they thought the stomach book you know the bible the torah the secret religious scriptures i have other stories about things that were relevant in the past that's another as relevant today the old torah well if you if you would let me finish i would i would say to you this the british or muslim community to european muslims who live in this part of the world will born here we were part of this country we are part of the d.n.a. of all of this society we have no ambition to take over europe we just want to live our lives there to the best of our ability to treat our neighbors with respect and preach peace and tolerance unlike you who wants to promote division who is quibbling to what the what was happening to the jews in a reality the second world war and the holocaust you are the people who are

encouraging the division and hatred but i think there's no place in europe to our solution you know now i have to go into as if there is no place in your answer because like yourself what's the worst that you use running around in the streets and burning houses and it's only us and the institution no they won't stop to to put the jews together with the muslims was not true with well with respect i think it's central i think if you you know you spend this d.n.a. in europe if you lose them so they look in the really regular. all right. i think i just said i had. to go ahead go ahead i promise i'll be brief i mean if you say the point the point i'm making about the experience of the jews if you look at the newspaper articles i studied the second world war for college i studied the constant demonization of the faith community the jewish community being blamed for every single problem every single crime the newspaper articles that's what i'm

talking about it's a similar atmosphere. that is was hopping on your friend in denmark. who is not having the russian argument he's coming from a prejudiced point of view. is also. gentlemen please ok and i do go back to something you said earlier in the program and we were talking about anglo merkel's comments and we're looking at this pew report on the muslim demographics in europe what you said you know ten years wasn't enough i mean should they just keep doing it you know we'll let's all be fair maybe merkel just said this for political points i mean she's a politician ok but i mean what do we take pieces of that and keep in mind with the demographics are going to be or do we do something very different and in looking at you know sitting there in brussels you probably have a broader view when looking at all the trends inside of europe. well i think there are sort of three pieces the first is directly to your point and that is that

integration is never going to be finished in a sense our our communities our identities are constantly going to be changing so there's never going to be a point where everyone can throw their hands up and go success we've done it with finish let's go home so there just has to be that constant sense of. community and whether everyone is investing in that community and there is a feeling that in some communities that some people participate and some people don't and i would say that's true of a certain ex-pat community as far as it's concern it could be true of certain immigrant communities and i mean in the sense of europeans living in different cities and different countries the second part is that part of this debate is not actually about immigration or about muslim immigration it's about a fear of change and speed of change that's occurring in europe globalization our economic shifts the fact that so much is changing around us and we seem to have so little control over those changing factors and immigration is to

a certain extent visible part of that and muslim immigration probably the most visible part of that or the most identifiable part of that and that feeds into people's sense of fear and change and the third parties is well what do you do about it and one thing that strikes me is that we do we do talk about european values and i sit here in brussels and i know how much. those who work in the you struggle with the concept of european values and being able to articulate them beyond we are liberal democracies and we believe in certain fundamental human rights but there is the question of what is the what is it what does it mean to be a citizen of a european country what does national identity mean what is that contract between the synch citizenry and the government and how how do we asked people to join a community when we're not entirely sure what the rules of the game are within that community themselves and i think that was a much bigger debate that could be it could. he had within europe and really taking

the focus off the narrow group that saying ok so how how how do we identify ourselves in the twenty first century that is rapidly changing well on that optimistic note here many thanks to my guests today in alberta manchester and in brussels and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember across talking. to.

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the embattled town hall whistleblower website wiki leaks is in a london court fighting attempt to have been extradited to sweden. but many feel still claims cozy relationship with washington may turn dollars into a pool to be traded between the two countries. education officials trying to woo the frontal position with confessions but all to often for the minds of round these demonstrators in cairo say they won't leave until the balance. but there are fears the opposition movement is being influenced by islamic who are pushing their own agenda in the region join me here in a few moments from all. russia's police force are in line for

a massive overhaul after the president some things that build the rebranded i don't mean for. the lawyers man to make corruption and holler abuse that being called the pots of gold the details in just a few moments. my . very warm welcome to you this is the line from moscow i'm alice have is the founder of wiki leaks the selling that opened america's diplomatic secrets to the world is that going to london courts to find sweden's attempt to have them extradited from the u.k. given the solid is wanted by strong over claims of sexual abuse against two women but he says the allegations are politically motivated made by people who want to shut down his whistleblower website. and it explains we have heard today that sweden.