it's a storm in kenya. to discuss the repercussions of muslim population growth i'm joined by anders graves and albert he is from the stop islamization of europe in manchester we go to mohammed shafique he is chief executive in founding member of the ramadan foundation and in brussels we cross to elizabeth called that she is senior advisor to the trans atlantic council on migration at the migration policy institute and another member of our cross talk team you know on the hunger all right panel you can jump in anytime you want that is crosstalk rules anderson if i can go to you first an interesting comment when we had the libyan leader khadafi to visit europe he went to italy on a two day visit and he's quoted in saying islam should become the religion of the whole of europe well not might happen one day but it won't be because of muslim muslim immigration is because of the secularization of a good parts of europe yeah yeah but i also believe that. the group

also russia is going to be muslim if we don't do anything to stop it this number sort of show it even saying these numbers is too low because in denmark they talk about two hundred twenty seven thousand muslims now we haven't heard this these numbers for the last fifteen years or so i don't understand it and even then you start to stick they don't make statistic after really so i don't understand how they can get these numbers that's another thing well if i can go to elizabeth in brussels i relied quite a bit on the pew research i found to be very good and reliable over the years and they estimate that as of two thousand and ten the report just came out only six percent of europe's population is muslim and they're predicting for two thousand and thirty eight percent. what the brouhaha here

so i mean you have to look at you have to look at this in the much broader context and this is a global analysis as well so right so dry delving down into europe you see the figures are much more nuanced and i think it's important right from the outset to point out that as the pew research center themselves this is not necessarily about religious muslims these are people who would self identify as muslim so that could mean in terms of ethnicity or in terms of social grouping this is not necessarily a religious demarcation so the number of religious muslims is likely much less you know muhammad if i say within your ok go ahead finish up go ahead. i would just want to point out that within europe that the changes that would take place between twenty ten and twenty thirty will differ from country to country this isn't going to be a sort of an even sweet moment if i can go to you you know looking at this pew research you could actually come to use it to whatever ends you want to i mean you can say oh my goodness the population growth is here and they really go into great detail

is that we look they look at the demographics we look at a certain generation there can be if i can use the term prolific in their in their in their growth but then that's going to slow down dramatically after two thousand and thirty i just because different groups are in different demographic waters but nonetheless looking at this research i can see how people could jump to one conclusion or another. well i think what it demonstrates is that muslims are part of the d.n.a. of your utopian society have been for hundreds of years and will continue to be for hundreds of years there are people on the margins of society like like our guest who who think that islam or for islamization that islam is somehow taking over western europe or europe it's deeply offensive it's not true muslims are happily living in countries for example here in the united kingdom we're very proud to be british we live in this country we were born in this country we're happy to accept that we'll put on me christian country but we're also multi-faith society to

recognise is people have the right to practice their faith live their lives according to their faith are this constant obsession with demonizing islam or muslims that has become endemic within europe is deeply worrying not just for the muslim community but for the whole of europe and what it demonstrates you is a it's the same thing again and again that happened to the jews in iraq to the second world war it's the same sort of oppression in a run up to the holocaust and now we're having the same thing be labelled against muslims it's unexceptable these these sort of lies and these of propaganda that somehow muslims are here to take over the or over europe is not true and i think people who engage in such battles and such arguments are doing so from a point of prejudice and clearly a point of a colloquial on your fascism ok and if there was a lot said there would you like to know i. really like to reply to it you say that the it's the same as the juice on the second world war i don't know about the was

running around and burning the streets raping women and so on like they're doing copenhagen and also to have specific treatments. in germany they didn't so you can't come with this. conclusion. well i think what you've got to do is you've got to accept my friend then your whole argument of demonizing the muslims is it's just not true you know you can demonstrate to me. that the jewel case is the individual cases in copenhagen or anywhere else of criminals operating but to suggest a whole community a whole faith system is responsible in some sort of peculiar way as you are doing is deeply responsible actually i think for example if you want to talk about child abuse among white copenhagen danish people probably represents ninety five percent of the population so i think you need to start looking

a bit closer to home for the problems in your society rather than just but i mean muslims because we're easy we're an easy scapegoat ok elizabeth i'm going to you and i don't know much so she's been sitting there very patiently at the same time and if we can reflect upon this report it was big and angela merkel's comment about the failure of multiculturalism in the least in germany i mean how do we find the mix right here because there is a long tradition of integration of different peoples in different societies i mean american we have a growing muslim community in the united states as well it's going to be very very small as a matter of fact by two thousand and thirty it will be the same size of the jewish community however you define it as you pointed out earlier in the united states but still you have this you know hysterical in the united states about the growth of a minority community so i mean if we can go back to merkel's comments i mean in looking at this this research here do we need to find a new way a new mix a new way of approaching this because it is causing a lot of hysterical and it does have a lot of political fallout as well. well i think there's

a popular belgian or academic here who once told me you can't declare a policy failed until you've tried it properly and one of the arguments made is germany really only started active integration policies around a decade ago too so to announce what ten years later we failed in this endeavor seems a little premature there was a sense of the nine that collect in germany for at least one generation and that involved this sort of exclusion of the children of migrants and poor educational outcomes that went addressed for an entire generation so you actually do you have to invest a huge amount to to set those trends straight i think it's important also not just to look at the negative trends which we have a tendency to do in europe we look at educational gaps we don't tend to look at the success stories and people who do. quite incredible things within a generation and. one thing that i do think is important is that this isn't just an

integration policy for those who are rife if we're talking about we start talking about european values and social contracts that that applies to a whole communities and not just. how many want their go ahead no i just. mean this debate has been about foreigners versus europeans for those people of my generation who were born in europe who are proud to be british are proud to be a european citizen you know we are british we are european and so this argument that just because we are muslims or just because we follow the feet of islam that somehow we are not acceptable in western societies is the problem this whole debate of multiculturalism has been about people giving up their faith or people giving up their way of life that's not going to happen if multiculturalism is about respecting each other have been told once for each other yes disagreeing from time

to time but having respect and tolerance then that. good thing it should be celebrated but if multiculturalism is about the muslim community or the immigrants who come into any particular society giving up their culture or their ethnicity or their beliefs then that's that's not acceptable and that's a form of multiculturalism the people would oppose and there's a i'm going to you know i mean your organization i mean your beef with the day they don't foreigners in particular in your case we're talking about here is a muslims they don't integrate or they just as they just don't have a place in europe in your opinion. i don't see the muslims who want to follow the koran and follow it exactly they don't have any place in europe and europe is not islamic and have not been muslim country never they have been here i think i think you know i think the writer on their future you ask you right i'm sorry with respect and muslims have been part of the d.n.a. of europe for centuries and. twentieth

century is deeply quite patronize you know i think it's wrong i mean i get it demonstrates that you're a man of the far right the you're a man and you're closely associated with the far right than a mainstream society muslims are being part of europe for generations i do suggest that some of the times you're telling me what you've essentially. with century muslims and they have been in my country there have been they have been studying the real code in base in the last thirty years so this is not in centuries a well have been lost limbs have been muslims have been muslims in bosnia and that's all what we know about it and they were there because of there was many compiler wasn't allowed and so many people have their way if you allow all i this is the point peter that the friend from from the from cooper nagin some somehow thinks that the bosnia war was caused by the bosnian muslims nope i don't know by disserves it demonstrates to you his agenda is about opposing islam opposing

muslims always constantly attacking our faith i don't know you need to produce the actual he's an associate himself if you are so she eighteen yourself would to serbians if you associate yourself with the massacres and the genocide that was committed bosnia shows your true colors this is not what it's about could. be a hero after a short break we'll continue our discussion on muslim population growth stay with arkie. you. steve. well when one deals with war for us to realize that this tremendous amounts of damage that are done not just human damage but damage to the physical environment in which the battlefield takes place tremendous amounts of damage done by aerial

bombs by napalm boy chemicals that whether it's a sonic boom six factory marine mammals or it's the burning oil fields here in iraq or destroyed reefs in the pacific for ramming purposes the list just goes on and on the geneva conventions of nineteen forty nine states that they are shall be taken in war to protect them by against widespread long term and severe damage the united states although it is accepted almost all of the provisions political one has taken exception to that. i am sure of nature and discover it's.

easy to communicate with the wild and. test yourself and become free. to. see what nature can give you the. world for. bringing you the latest in science and technology from a realm for sure. we've got the future covered. welcome back to our computer file to remind you we're speaking about muslim demographics.

but first let's see what russians think about islam well muslims take over the world a recent report sparks concerns for some claiming the growth rate of muslims double compared to non muslims over the next twenty years researchers suggest immigration and high fertility rates are the reasons but will this date a post a slam a poll they're already high around the world the public opinion agency live out of santa ask russians they consider this land to be an aggressive religion fifty percent of the respondents as said they do and another forty percent do not agree with that statement still the question today is what approach should be taken to face this changing reality. ok elizabeth in brussels i'd like to go to you and i to kind of change gears here because i think it's something that's being over missed getting this report is what spike my interest in it in considering we when we look

at demographics of this report but we look at politics as well and we've seen politics very polarized and insincere all europeans are sort of the european aspect of this but you know if you look at you know you could say sixty percent of the population is a small anywhere but if they become politically active then they can be make a difference in politics in coalitions because most of these countries are going parliamentary democracy so you'll have some people demonizing them as we've been and we've been pointed out on this program but other people say hey look we need the muslim. if we're going to be able to create a coalition i mean could you see it kind of turn the other way because these people are going to be citizens ok many of them are in the european union they have passports and they can vote and their numbers get bigger even if it's two or three or four percent and we depending on the country they could be a game changer in a political situation well i think it's there's no need to talk in the future tense i mean people are muslim descent already participate in politics to quote

quite a deep degree in some countries that certainly in the u.k. in germany the head of the green party is. the child protection parents you also have the mayor of rotterdam who is also muslim origin and you do have a significant numbers of muslims who are getting increasingly politically active so they are part of the broad framework of of politics i think one thing that it's often overlooked is the fact that people might have a huge margin this opinion based towards muslims but also within the muslim community itself people have different political views people have different expectations of their own government as well so i think it's difficult to sort of look at. that there will be a particular party that a community will forge towards but so really looking at the far right groups that have emerged in europe over the past decades it's too simplistic to say that they

are all anti muslim in nature a lot of them have a broader framework in terms of being more broadly anti immigration being concerned about population levels in different countries but then also in central eastern europe you see far right groups focusing in on the roma population the indigenous ethnic minority within that country and not really looking at muslim integration a tool mohamed if i can go to you and me in britain do you come across. british muslims that are tory and let you know in the others that are labor i mean you're not the same population i think it was elizabeth points out a very good thing is that a mall today views within the larger community too i mean you can't be buttonholed so easily. well traditionally the british pakistani would produce muslim community has been aligned with the labor party here tony blair and gordon brown's political party but since the war in iraq people have been looking more to the conservative party and to the liberal democrats which is a third party here in the united kingdom what it really says to you peter is that

british muslims are actively involved in politics we have over twenty seven ethnic minority members of parliament we have i think six or eight muslim members of parliament we have a member in a petition government cabinet of muslim descent we have a former member of gordon brown's cabinet as a member of the senior member of his government what it demonstrates treats him in particularly terms is that politicians recognise that muslims are an integral part of our societies that there are extremists on all sides as we've been seen on the shore today who try to pull communities apart and what we've all got to do in europe is come together and not let the extremists drivers apart we've got common values we've got a common ideals that brings us together and that's that's what we should be focusing on not what know what divides us but rather what unites us anders who says you said something in the beginning of the program that i find interesting is that if you if your holy book is the koran you can't be a european citizen in a in

a sense that i think all of us would agree on i don't understand that. ok i'll explain it. in the koran it's a lot of us who tell about how christians have to be mistreated cute. hot water in the stomach and so on put in teens we can't have a religion who have a book through how to kill the neighbors they have to take away these kind of things from the qur'an pull out these things and then become starts to talk about integration but so long time there have been you know ways through a coup for us to look for us then they have to understand we can't have them here. ok mohammed you want if they want to integrate they want to to accept our democracy is ok the no problem but what is a no you all do have is very small country we have signed our democracy we are five yellow is no no do we have fifteen million people yes it is five million people rio

and denmark and we have tried for certain years to integrate the muslims we have just seen we nearly have a civil war in denmark. the police but i think you have to retain joy that if you had some time no no no no no protect the firemen or the m.p.'s before the drive into the ghettos priest is strong out of the ghettos because they have a cross in the car while i'm still young so you can notice priest there's a reference because he's going to say i mean this is my music this is this is this is obviously said this is part of problem we we have we have wacky individuals like the man from denmark who is making varied controversial comments about the summit faith or the stomach book you know the bible the torah the secret religious scriptures i have other stories about things that were relevant in the past that's another as relevant today the old torah well if you if you would let me finish i would i would say to you this the british or muslim community the european muslims

who live in this part of the world will born here we were part of this country we are part of the d.n.a. of all of this society we have no ambition to take over europe we just want to live our lives there to the best of our ability to treat our neighbors with respect and preach peace and tolerance unlike you who wants to promote division who is equivalent to what what was happening to the jews integral to the second world war and the holocaust you are the people who are encouraging the division and hatred but i think there's no place in europe that are sort of illusion you know now i have to go into as if there is no place in you and submit yourself what's the worst that used to running around in the streets and burning house and it's only us and the institution no they won't stop to to put the jews together with the muslims was not true where you are with respect i think it's central i think if you you know you spend this d.n.a. in europe if you lose themselves in the region the regular. all right. and i

think i just said i had. to go ahead go ahead i promise i'll be brief i mean if you say the point the point i'm making about the experience of the jews if you look at the newspaper articles i studied a second world war college i studied the constant demonization of the faith community the jewish community being blamed for every single problem every single crime the newspaper articles that's what i'm talking about it's a similar atmosphere. that is was hopping on your friend in denmark. who is not having the russian argument he's coming from a prejudiced point of view i have a very regular. gentlemen please ok and i do go back to something you said earlier in the program and we were talking about anglo merkel's comments and we're looking at this pew report on the muslim the demographics in europe what you said you know ten years wasn't enough i

mean should they just keep doing it you know we'll let's all be fair maybe merkel just said this for political points and she's a politician ok but i mean what do we take pieces of that and keep in mind with the demographics are going to be or do we do something very different and in looking at you know sitting there in brussels you probably have a broader view when looking at all the trends inside of europe. well i think there are sort of three pieces the first is directly to your point and that is that integration is is never going to be finished in a sense our our communities our identities are constantly going to be changing so there's never going to be a point where everyone can throw their hands up and go success we've done it with finished let's go home so it just has to be that constant sense of. community and whether everyone is investing in that community and there is a feeling that in some communities that some people participate and some people don't and i would say that's true of a certain ex-pat community as far as it's concerned it could be true of certain immigrant communities and i mean in the sense of europeans living in different

cities and different countries the second part is that part of this debate is not actually about immigration or about muslim immigration it's about a fear of change and a speed of change that's occurring in europe globalization our economic shifts the fact that so much is changing around us and we seem to have so little control over those changing factors and immigration is to a certain extent visible part of that and muslim immigration probably the most visible part of that or the most identifiable part of that and that feeds into people's sense of fear and change and the third parties is well what do you do about it and one thing that strikes me is that we do we do talk about european values and i sit here in brussels and i know how much. those who work in the you struggle with the concept of european values and being able to articulate them beyond we are liberal democracies and we believe in certain fundamental human rights but there is the question of what is the what is it what does it mean to be

a citizen of a european country which is national identity mean what is that contract between the station jury system citizenry and the government and how how do we asked people to join a community when we're not entirely sure what the rules of the game are within that community themselves and i think that was a much bigger debate that could be could. we had within europe and really taking the focus off an area group that saying ok so how how how do we identify ourselves in the twenty first century that is rapidly changing well on that optimistic note here many thanks to my guest today in albert manchester and in brussels and thanks to our viewers for watching if you see you next time and remember cross talk. to. you can.

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has been seeing from the streets of canada. china operations are on the day. the how would i be sure to tell if the hotel hotel will show his the groom for two . evergreens the rules for totally. springs resort. hotel royal she didn't post a photo. the closer in time. of the time the full points. in time.

tell me touch your room the hotel room and google how would. you with us here on our team. website wiki leaks is a. sweden. stockholm could pass them on to u.s. prosecutors. egyptian officials try to with a defiant opposition with concessions mubarak's regime has held talks with a muslim brotherhood movement that's bad in the country but after a fortnight of rallies demonstrators in cairo say they won't leave the streets until the president.

signs a bill to have. the charges or changes to fighting corruption and abuse of power by officers. coming up in our special report we find out about wars silent casualty the environment. coming your way next. displacement is another of war's consequences the forced migration of civilians has profound impacts on the natural environment this image was taken in one thousand nine hundred six after the tens of million government decided to close the camps for wanton refugees the column of refugees in this photo stretched for twenty seven miles toward the rwandan border. these women are i.d.p.'s internally displaced persons although they have fled the.