you know what's really happening to the global economy is because reports on. seven more suspects identified in connection to the moscow airport bombing in january after russia's most wanted terrorist claims he ordered the attack. wiki leaks founder julian assange on june fourth u.k. for a second day fighting extradition to sweden with the hearing set to resume friday songes lawyers say political pressure from washington could see him handed over to u.s. authorities. in. egypt's president hosni mubarak offers to reform the constitution in an attempt to diffuse public anger about thousands of protesters poured into tahrir square in cairo it apparent rejection of the proposals and continued with his resignation. coming up on this edition of cross talk peter lavelle and his gas discuss the multiple challenges that egypt faces as well as the international reaction to that stay with us.

can. follow in welcome to cross talk on peter lavelle dilemma democracy versus stability can egypt have both are the u.s. and its allies in the region prepared to cede people's power in the arab world succeed and can democratize the middle east bring about peace.

to discuss democracy in the middle east i'm joined by ramsey by root in seattle he's the editor in chief of the palestine chronicle in jerusalem we go to israel made out he is the director of information resources at the manakin bagan heritage center and in london we go to come out and he is the chairman of the center for the study of terrorism and another member of our cross talk team yell on the hunger all right gentlemen cross talk rules in effect you have differences of opinion and i do encourage you to jump in here ok if i could go to ramsey first in seattle i think you know looking over the events that have happened in egypt and tunisia and as we're sitting down doing this program there are hundreds of thousands of people in the center of cairo protesting and demanding the end of the mubarak regime but over the last two weeks or so has the discourse of these dictators supported by the west

they're the only things they did they're the only people that are a barrier to extremism in the arab world isn't that that that dichotomy that that discourse in tatters right now is we look at the people in tunisia we look at the people in egypt and we look at yemen and we look at saudi arabia we look at algeria i can go on and on and i in all persons i hope it keeps going on and on is that discourse really dead now. i hope so but it certainly was the prevailing discourse that justified a western and largely western backing and support of the dictators throughout the middle east based on the fact that they are preserving u.s. interests in the us and western interests and because of this issue of extremism and terrorism although the popular movements that we are seeing at work here with are into nature and egypt and again hopefully in the rest of of the

middle east and the arab world they are very much homegrown democratic popular populist movements that in no way a threat. to the west and this course the west decides to lock horns with these movements but in actuality they are not and i think it's time that we abandon this discourse altogether and embrace what people throughout the middle east want to impress and that is genuine democracy israel if i can go to you in jerusalem. obviously israel is going to look at its national security interests and fair enough every country wants to do that but do you think that it's really misplaced it looks like you know as we go through these days here the u.s. is trying to make a deal with the egyptian army and not really make a deal with the egyptian people isn't this a continuation of the discourse that i mentioned first and we. discussed also is it can the united states break away from this because it just seems to really

have a love affair with dictators until there is no longer of any use to them. well the storable rick it is definitely the fact that the united states has preferred stability whether or not that is democracy in the middle east or not the problem is though that everywhere with the past thirty to forty years where so-called populist struggles have broken out they have gone to dictatorships not only dictatorships with very religiously fundamentalist type regimes like any rhyme who many regime which is now developing nuclear weapons or turkey which is completely breaking apart a long time stability alliance that has existed here and if egypt goes that same way with a very strong muslim brotherhood political force even though there are a minority in numbers but they're basically the only true politically organized force we might have something called democracy i don't think will you that have

peace or any sort of stability ok if i'm going to come out here i mean muslim brotherhood was already brought up here and this is what the west is obsessed with obsessed with talking about the brother muslim muslim brotherhood and as it is a threat and at the same time it is a bit with the longest largest organization in egypt and it is not played in a forefront role in all of this as my fact is it's backing up to the democratic process and it says that the current government is not serious in dealing with the demonstrators and democratic agenda what do you think about that. i do believe that america and the west in general they are not booking policy of double standard especially we know from your friend that in israel saying that stability. is before democracy and that the with steve if

it planes democracy will bring some people like the muslim brotherhood or hamas in palestine and democrats are elected they pretty fair dictatorship and shimon peres said that and this is silly policy if you like democracy for yourself you should like it for others as well and we need freedom we have muslim brothers we need freedom we need equality we need justice and that that will bring a democratically an elected member rigged elections in egypt it shows it company views whoever comes to rule whoever come to the parliament since it is a free will of the people we as muslim brothers would respect it and accept it but the uncertainty to that your friend in israel who said. the

fundamentalist government in iran they are processing the nuclear power why israel is bruises and nuclear power what does a human rights if you don't bother to do that why are you doing it yourself ok and why do it is they listen to me listen let me completely out of the idea and jump in jump around when you want to jump in there like to ask israel to respond go ahead. ok two quick points here in real democracy there is no pick and choose you can't support democracy and when the yielding is something that is not to your favor you balkan democracy and says it no no no no let's go back to authoritarian regimes it really doesn't work that way number two what is the radicalization of so populist movements with or in iran or elsewhere are largely related to the way that they have been treated with or by the west or by israel how mass is let's say that

hamas is in the process of being even more radical what explains that except the siege on gaza and the way the palestinian democracy has been cheated or mistreated the same goes to iran this him goes to they've been on and the same will happen in egypt if we do not put our act together and embrace egyptian democracy the radicalization of this is a delusion is not going to be are any good fruits to anybody not in the region or beyond it so i think it is essential that we do not commit the same mistake that we have done in the past and understand that this is real democracy and don't jump the gun and and create enemies in egypt and elsewhere just because we are afraid of the iranian model or whatever model that israel is always obsessed with israel you know a lot of people in western media seem to be supporting. the recently appointed vice president but i mean most people that i've come across and basically called him the

egypt's torturing chief i mean why in the world would western powers after what we know from weekly leaks and other sources this is a piece of work and he's a nasty piece to work but he seems to be given you know and my spear of you know he's a man in charge you know he's he can pull us through this in the in the obama administration has just been really it's baffling to me i guess in an hour they'll change their mind still again i want to do i mean really what it gets down to what our two gentlemen also on the panel said can israel live with a democratic egypt. defeated definitely so a democratic egypt is the best surance of stability the problem is are we talking about democracy in the arab world or something called arab democracy ever since iraq became the first arab nation to be a modern nation state in the one nine hundred thirty s. followed by jordan and lebanon syria in the one nine hundred forty s.

and on i think a long enough time has passed about and nine decades and we haven't seen yet one arab country truly become democratic and when the united states went ahead well israel you know a lot of people were interested that is already. well you know derealization western neocon colonialism i mean my goodness the u.s. foreign policy and british before that in the in the arab world i mean it was more than meddling and a lot of and if you can look at overthrowing a legitimate government in iran in the one nine hundred fifty s. i mean how can you say such things. exactly exactly how they say something is including israel and you know why israel is a country that only became independent in one nine hundred forty eight and was under british colonial rule and was in exile as a people until the mid nineteenth century managed to come up very well democratically i would even say a little bit too democratic with its pluralistic system and the proportional

representation but how is it possible that israel in the middle east is the only country that really has maintained democratic model to the extent that many of our local arabs are learning much more about democracy from us than they are from their fellow arab states why do they have to learn from anyone why can't they just do it on their own ramzi do you want to finish up before we go to the break i had. yes yes please i think you know this really example is a very interesting example because it's constantly constantly prided self-will being the only democracy in the middle in the middle east but it's also tries to constantly suffocate any attempts at genuine democracy in the middle east as of this is some sort of a brand democracy for israel is a brand and they want to be the only one who carries that brand anybody who'd really very judicious to hear. parliament.

you know if you have been mastered long as it is in egypt if you don't follow the news of the egypt in cairo you will find out that that christians and muslims are united and that the harir square egyptians and muslims are united in egypt and this goes against all the attempts i have seen him think the reality is going to be feeling all syrians between both groups so so it is so essentially the gentleman here when he was going to come out after a short break we'll continue our discussion on egypt stay with our. well when one deals with war for us to realize that this tremendous amounts of damage that have done not just human damage but damage the physical environment in

which the battlefield takes place tremendous amounts of damage done by aerial bombs by napalm boy coming from the city whether it's sonic boom city tractor mammals or it's the burning oil fields in iraq or story corps in the pacific for landing purposes the list just goes on and on the geneva conventions of nineteen forty nine states that they are shall be taken in the war to protect and vote against widespread long term and severe damage the united states although it is accepted almost all of the provisions protocol one has taken exception to that.

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you want to. welcome back to prosper i'm carol about remind you we're talking about egypt's prospects for democracy. in egypt. but before let's have a look at russia's stance on the situation in egypt the turmoil still not over as the chaos in egypt rages on leaders of the international community warning president mubarak to step down russia's president need to make the bid to fix pressed his hope that the current political crisis would be resolved peacefully and within the bounds of law he also lost mubarak to ensure the security of russian nationals in the bad old egypt according to the russian president tourism a. most russian tourists were airlifted home during the weekend and it hopes to

bring back the rest of them by february fourteenth back to. ok you want to say something before the break but also just alike everyone ask everyone on the panel it seems like over the last two weeks actually the last couple of days is that the united states and western governments and certainly israel spoke out very loudly about it in and out my interpretation is that they want a mubarak lite suleyman which i can hardly can see could be lighted considering he's been involved in rendition and torture and all of these other nasty things to call under the rubric of the war on terror so you know if i got to come out i mean you know what what is this what is happening right now is there a lot of things going on behind the scenes to determine what the demat democratic path will egypt be because it will be just a repetition of what we've seen western powers do over the last five decades you know as you would like could be voted to do is say that the so-called democracy in

israel is killing. palestinians their mother their house is building a war between them. that we. even for i'm sure is. killing that kind of runs in the. water and this is their mobility i don't know what the value is they're most going to. support it tell it is the beginning of children and women they're most going to see. as well. the propaganda. let me let me let me. you did not allow me. the democracy and the democratic voters says is not to stand against democracy or

what other. america is good it is strongly again they've got to kelly elected government in palestine and that is me this is really. just ok come on i'd like to jump in here and ask israel because you brought up a very good point here i mean a is israel's model of democracy worth exporting or just should israel not comment and not get involved in the internal affairs of another country egypt is trying its best it would seem to get its house in order but then you have netanyahu come out in basic praising mubarak as a great partner and friend etc etc he's not seen in that light in his own country so why should the united states why should israel be selling dollars and then people could see have you ever seen democracy a lie and through his dictatorship or democracy to support dictatorship have you seen people like that ok if i am simply. please jump in democracies jump in and go

because the market has a nice jumping ahead i under i understand the concern i understand the deep concern of come out for democracy i realize that i understand that he is supporting the ops stark government of. the media in in gaza i don't think much more the boss is very. happy about that situation in fact it's probably broken up a future palestinian state into two small statelets one in gaza. we can call the calmest on and the one in what i called you do in and scenario which would probably be fucked up the land but that's their democracy i would prefer as i asked before is there any other country in the middle east where jews who have been residents are worried. we're members of the parliament the very very few if at all in israel

we have a very strong democracy with arabs voting in our has been elected members do you know you're done and you're good. you're done you are good. i'm good i was doing before you know it seems to me this is not seems to me this is really. crazy to me really see any. reason to see. these gentlemen gentlemen please come on please. if i could think is there talking now if i could just say some co-head please it just seems to me it just seems to me that israel is largely focused here on cliches. whatever that may be the reality is how mass was elected democratically by the palestinian people democracy dictates that we need to respect the right of the majority to make their choices it's not your choice israel to come and visit me it's one that's come a stand and put them under severe scene and these shia wars and new white

phosphorous on them because they have chosen a government that you do not approve of again gentlemen she doesn't generally want to get a little too far with gentlemen we're getting a little. and i know you stay with me and so i will light gentlemen to stay with ramsey really the issue here if we speed up to the present ok is it the the israelis and the americans and their allies are terrified that the egyptians will break the blockade of gaza if they have a government of their own people to have their own foreign ministers the lives they decide they don't want to enforce this illegal blockade of gaza that's what israel is first and foremost afraid of at this moment. and you know what the new government and your government can mail if you could just let me as of this question and you go on your government might in fact break the siege of gaza in fact the siege of god. that is and is a violation of international law and various international bodies have asked and

demanded the break of that siege however our focus right now should not be with us worrying about the future concerns of israel and israel's security needs it should be the right and the demands of eighty four million egyptians many of them who have been to the streets demanding social justice demanding freedom as they might demanding human rights once they have and a democratically elected government that government has a right to take whatever policies that are consistent with the demands and consensus of the people and be that is consistent with the regional policies that the new government in egypt would like to see it acted and i think that's should be the focus right now as opposed to all these obsessions and worries of israel in regarding the future of the egyptian government israel if you want to respond whoever whoever said. the ramsey case that democracy whoever said that democracy is to make siege around other people human being if

they are ruled neighbors do have many leaders in israel at present they committed cannot war crimes exactly in the same way. again of jews in germany in the second world war there prevented now some of. the risk and i don't want to do the regularly issue in which any arab searchers support of the move who met and worked with their to compare israel's policies to anything that happened in world war two and i'm ashamed to be on the same plaque that become of that the most israel where your lives are really incapable their mind you. are a gentleman gentlemen gentlemen listen i don't know why change gears here come on you guys please let's not keep fighting old battles here. ok if i go to ramsey one

of the things i think is very interesting and extremely exciting for everybody in the regional almost everyone in the region is that if egypt can really pull this off others will follow others will see that they can do it without outside meddling they can do it they can have their own democracy without worrying about some other country's security interest that american media is constantly bombarding everyone in the states about it if they can do it on their own and i think that's the exciting thing that's happening there what's tragic is that we're seeing people like suman giving getting so much backing from from the united states behind closed doors even overtly which is again i find it repugnant i mean this is really the exciting breakthrough that we could see after fifty years of misery especially thirty years in egypt. you know the prospects peter are indeed very exciting you know we've reached a point in america where it's no longer sounds racist to ask such questions as our obscure bubble of achieving democracy our of schiphol of doing this or that as

if our arabs are just a different breed from ours that is is has no rights and and does not see itself or holds itself accountable to the same universal rights and rules as the rest of the world so the prospects are very exciting as long as there is no attempt at suffocating the popular will of the people were there in egypt or elsewhere in the middle east manors democracies have proven to be a complete theory or president bush's or former president bush's great made a great middle east democracy project was a splendid thing here in fact it's in despite many years now the people the people not the political parties not the ideology is not the factions the people muslims and christians in egypt and in tunisia and elsewhere are now going to the streets and saying we are not with this we're not with that we're not pro we are not against we are the people of these countries and we want to see real and genuine

democracies in our political and i think their voices are risen ating not just in the middle east but also in washington in tel aviv and this is why there is very serious and genuine worry is about the prospects and the potential of this populist movement it's around going to give you the last word on this program here if we see this democratization process in the region continue and be real in without outside influence do you think that we that is a path to a real genuine peace in the region where the countries of the arab world in the region can make peace with israel in israel make peace with its neighbors through democracy twenty second school right ahead i agree with you. don't want to be understood against democracy all. well i am just raising some doubts as to the historical and current political context israel would be the very first country to reach out its hand to a true democratic arab country because through

a cultural political system of democracy a better middle east for all of us can be established and i hope that is what will happen in egypt and my hand reaches out to the demonstrators in tahrir square hopefully not only stability not only peace but true democracy in the middle east all right thank you gentlemen many thanks to my guest today in seattle london and in jerusalem and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cross talk. and you can.

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