this is with the twenty four hours a day in moscow top stories the u.k.'s guardian newspaper is accused of editing secret documents provided by wiki leaks to suit its own political agenda the whistle blowing web site is also threatening to sue the paper of its new book about june in the. russian security services make their first arrests in connection with last month's moscow airport attack and then with the dead of a suicide bomber has been revealed and several of the suspected a compass is already in custody. as huge protests continue in egypt against president mubarak some of the blame for his enormous wealth and abuse of power is pinned on western companies reportedly a multi billion assets and swiss banks and property in the u.s.

and. he continues in less than thirty minutes from now in the meantime cross-talk host peter lavelle and his guest discuss the changes facing egypt and the international reaction to the nats next here on alt. and you can. still. follow in welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle dilemma democracy versus stability can egypt have both are the u.s. and its allies in the region prepared to see people's power in the arab world succeed and can democratize the middle east bring about peace.

and you can. start. to discuss democracy in the middle east i'm joined by ramsey by root in seattle he's the editor in chief of the palestine chronicle in jerusalem we go to israel made out he is the director of information resources at the manakin bagan heritage center and in london we go to come out and he is the chairman of the center for the study of terrorism and another member of our cross talk team yell on the hunger all right gentlemen cross talk rules in effect you have differences of opinion and i do encourage you to jump in here ok if i could go to ramsey first in seattle i think you know looking over the events that have happened in egypt and tunisia and as we're sitting down doing this program there are hundreds of thousands of people in the center of cairo protesting and demanding the end of the mubarak regime but over the last two weeks or so has the discourse of these dictators supported by the west

they're the only things that they did they're the only people that are a barrier to extremism in the arab world isn't that that that dichotomy that that discourse in tatters or. right now if we look at the people in tunisia we look at the people in egypt and we look at yemen and we look at saudi arabia we look at algeria i can go on and on and i you know personally i hope it keeps going on and on is that discourse really dead now i hope so but it certainly was the prevailing discourse that justified a western largely western backing and support of the dictators throughout the middle east based on the fact that they are preserving u.s. interests and the u.s. and western interests and because of this issue of extremism and terrorism although the popular movements that we are seeing at work here with are

into nature and in egypt and again hopefully in the rest of the middle east and the arab world they are very much homegrown democratic popular populist movements that in no way a threat. to the west and this course the west decides to lock horns with these movements but in actuality they are not and i think it's time that we abandon this discourse altogether and embrace what people throughout the middle east want to in praise and that is genuine democracy israel if i can go to you in jerusalem. obviously israel is going to look at its national security interest and fair enough every country wants to do that but do you think that it's really misplaced it looks like you know as we go through these days here the u.s. is trying to make a deal with the egyptian army and not really make a deal with the egyptian people isn't this a continuation of the discourse that i mentioned first and we. discussed also

is it can the united states break away from this because it just seems to really have a love affair with dictators until there is no longer of any use to them. well the storable rick it is definitely the fact that the united states has preferred stability whether or not that is democracy in the middle east or not the problem is though that everywhere with the past thirty to forty years where so-called populist struggles have broken out they have gone to dictatorships not only dictatorships with very religiously fundamentalist type regimes like any rhyme who many regime which is now developing nuclear weapons or turkey which is completely breaking apart a long time stability alliance that has existed here and if egypt goes that same way with a very strong muslim brotherhood political force even though there are a minority in numbers but they're basically the only true politically organized force we might have something called democracy i don't think will you that have

peace or any sort of stability ok if i'm going to come out here i mean a muslim brotherhood was already brought up here and this is what the west is obsessed with obsessed with talking about the brother muslim muslim brotherhood and as it is a threat and at the same time it is a bit with the longest largest organization in egypt and it is not played in a forefront role in all of this as my fact is it's backing up the democratic process and it says that the current government is not serious in dealing with the demonstrators and democratic agenda what do you think about that. i do believe that america and the west in general they are not booking policy of double standard especially we know from your friend that in israel saying that stability. is before democracy and that the with

steve if it planes democracy will bring some people like the muslim brotherhood or hamas in palestine and democrats really like that they prefer. dictatorship under shimon but it is said that and this is silly policy if you like democracy for yourself you should like it for others as well and we need freedom we have muslim brothers we need freedom we need equality we need justice and that that will bring the democratically an elected number rigged elections in egypt it should it come to refuse whoever comes to rule whoever come to the parliament since it is a free will of the people we as muslim brothers would respect it and accept it but there is sort of to that your friend in israel who said. the

fundamentalist government in iran they are processing a nuclear power why israel is bruising a nuclear power what is a human rights if you don't bother to do that why are you doing it yourself ok and why do it is they listen to me listen let me completely out of the idea and jump in jump around saying you want to jump in there and i to ask israel to respond go ahead. ok two quick points here in real democracy there is no pick and choose you can't support democracy and when the yielding is something that is not to your favor you ball could democracy and says it no no no no let's go back to authoritarian regimes it really doesn't work that way number two what is the radicalization of so populous movements with or in iran or elsewhere are largely related to the way that they have been treated with or by the west or by israel how

mass is let's say that hamas is in the process of being even more radical what explains that except the siege on gaza and the way the palestinian democracy has been cheated or mistreated the same goes to iran this him goes to they've been on and the same will happen in egypt if we do not put our act together and embrace egyptian democracy the radicalization of this revolution is not going to be are any good fruits to anybody not in the region or beyond it so i think it is essential that we do not commit the same mistake that we have done in the past and understand that this is real democracy and don't jump the gun and and create enemies in egypt and elsewhere just because we are afraid of the iranian model or whatever model that israel is always obsessed with israel you know a lot of people in western media seem to be supporting. the recently appointed vice

president but i mean most people that i've come across and basically called him the egypt's torturing chief i mean why in the world would western powers after what we know from weekly leaks and other sources this is a piece of work and he's a nasty piece to work but he seems to be given you know and my spear of you know he's a man in charge you know he's he can polish through this in the in the obama administration has just been really it's baffling to me and i guess in an hour they'll change their mind still again i want to do i mean really what it gets down to when are two gentlemen also on the panel said can israel live with a democratic egypt. deficit definitely so a democratic egypt is the best surance of stability the problem is are we talking about democracy in the arab world or something called arab democracy ever since iraq became the first arab nation to be a modern nation state in the one nine hundred thirty s.

followed by jordan and lebanon syria in the one nine hundred forty s. and on i think a long enough time has passed about and nine decades and we haven't seen yet one arab country truly become democratic and when the united states went ahead well israel you know a lot of people of interest that is already. well you know here elance western neocon colonialism i mean my goodness the u.s. foreign policy and british before that in the in the arab world i mean it was more than meddling and a lot of and if you can look at overthrowing a legitimate government in iran in the one nine hundred fifty s. i mean how can you say such things. exactly exactly how they said it was the including israel and you know why israel as a country that only became independent in one nine hundred forty eight and was under british colonial rule and was in exile as a people until the mid nineteenth century managed to come up very well democratically i would even say

a little bit too democratic with its pluralistic system and the proportional representation but how is it possible that israel in the middle east is the only country that really has maintained democratic model to the extent that many of our local arabs are learning much more about democracy from us than they are from their fellow arab states why do they have to learn from anyone why can't they just do it on their own ramzi do you want to finish up before we go to the break i had. yes yes i think you know this really example is a very interesting example because it's constantly constantly prided self-will being the only democracy in the middle in the middle east but it's also tries to constantly suffocate any attempts at genuine democracy in the middle east as of this is some sort of a brand democracy for israel is a brand and they want to be the only one who carries that brand anybody who would really very judicious to hear oh you gyptian parliament.

you know i think you have been absolutely lovely as it is if you had all of the new ship in cairo you will find out that that christians and muslims are united and that the harir square egyptians and muslims are united in egypt and this goes against all the attempts i have seen. between both groups so so it is so essential if we're going to jump in here when we are going to come out after a short break we'll continue our discussion on egypt stay with our. nature

and discover its beauty. communicate with the wild. test yourself and become free. see what nature can give you on the. down low the official ante up location to go on the phone on called touch from the top story. which all t.v. lights on the. video on demand on t.v.'s minefield costs and says feed now with the palm of your. machine on the dot com. ok

cool. welcome back to boston i'm carol about remind you we're talking about egypt's prospects for democracy. but before let's have a look at russia's stance on the situation in egypt the turmoil is still not over as the chaos in egypt rages on leaders of the international community warning president mubarak to step down russia's president need to be made to be if expressed his hope that the current political crisis would be resolved peacefully and within the bounds of law he also asked mubarak to ensure the security of russian nationals in the bad old egypt according to the russian federal tourism agency most russian tourists were airlifted tone during the weekend and it hopes to

bring back the rest of them by february fourteenth back to. ok you want to say something before the break but it also has to like everyone ask everyone on the panel it seems like over the last two weeks actually the last couple of days is that the united states and western governments and certainly israel spoke out very loudly about it in and out my interpretation is that they want a mubarak light with which i can hardly can see could be lighted considering he has been involved in rendition in torture and all of these other nasty things are called under the rubric of the war on terror so you know if i'm going to come out i mean you know what what is this what is happening right now is there a lot of things going on behind the scenes to determine what the demat democratic path will egypt be because it will be just a repetition of what we've seen western powers do over the last five decades. yes you would like to be for them to say that the so-called democracy in israel is

killing. palestinians their monitoring their houses building a warning between them. driving away the population even from jerusalem. killing the kind of ones in the international waters and this is democracy i don't know what their value is the most crazy has brought to such brutality is that they are doing and the killing of children and women democracy means to live as well. in the propaganda no no no no no let me let me let me answer you said jump in i tried to jump in you did not allow me. the democracy and the democratic voter says is not to stand against democracy what other. america is good it is strongly again

is not to kelly elected government in palestine and that is right let me yeah this is really. just ok come on i'd like to jump in here and ask israel because you brought up a very good point here i mean a is israel's model of democracy worth exporting or just should israel not comment and not get involved in the internal affairs of another country egypt is trying its best it would seem to get its house in order but then you have netanyahu come out and basic praising mubarak is a great partner and friend etc etc he's not seen in that light in his own country so why should the united states why should israel be so under all of this because the have you ever seen democracy ally and through his dictatorship or democracy to support dictatorship have you seen people like that ok as i don't seem people.

please jump in democracies jump in and go is there more cuz he's jumping ahead i understand the concern i understand the deep concern of come out for democracy i realize that i understand that he is supporting the op start government of smear from the in in gaza i don't think mahmoud abbas is very. happy about that situation in fact it's probably broken up a future palestinian state into two small statelets one in gaza. we can call the calmest on and the one in what i called you did and some area which would probably be fucked off the land but that's their democracy i would prefer as i asked before is there any other country in the middle east we're jews who have been resident to worry. we're members of the parliament the very very few if at all in israel we have a very strong democracy with arabs voting in our has been elected. you're done and

you're good. you're done you are good. i'm good i was doing before you know it seems to me this is not seems to me this is really. really see any reason for me to see. these gentlemen gentlemen please john please. if i could think is there talking now if i could just say some co-head please it just seems to me it just seems to me that israel is largely focused here on cliches hum a stand side to whatever that may be the reality is how mass was elected democratically by the palestinian people democracy dictates that we need to respect the right of the majority to make their choices it's not your choice israel to come and visit me it's one that has come a start and put them under severe scene and unleashing a war's

a new white phosphorus on them because they have chosen a government that you do not approve of again gentlemen she doesn't generally want to get a little hot always you know if you're getting a little shot in turn up your sleeves and i know you stay with me and so will my gentleman to stay with ramsey really the issue here if we speed up to the present ok is it the the israelis and the americans and their allies are terrified that the egyptians will break the blockade of gaza if they have a government of their own people to have their own family they decide they don't want to enforce this illegal blockade of gaza that's what israel is first and foremost afraid of at this moment. and you know what the new government and your government cannot if you could just let me answer this question and you go on your government might in fact break the siege of gaza in fact the siege of gaza. that is in violation of international law and various international bodies have asked and demanded the break of that siege however our focus right now should not be with us

worrying about the future concerns of israel and israel's security needs it should be the right and the demands of eighty four million egyptians many of them who have been to the streets demanding social justice demanding three times the my demanding human rights once they have and a democratically elected government that government has a right to take whatever policies that are consistent with the demands and consensus of the people and be that is consistent with the regional policies that the new government in egypt would like to see in acted and i think that's should be the focus right now as opposed to all these obsessions and worries of israel in regarding the future of the egyptian government israel do you want to respond to whoever whoever said. the ramsey case that democracy whoever said that democracy is to make siege around other people human being if

they are ruled neighbors do have many leaders in israel at present they committed got war crimes exactly the same way it did again of jews in germany in the second world legal or there prevented now some of. the worst and i don't want to do the regular easy issue in which any arab structures support of the movie who met and worked with their to compare israel's policies to anything that happened in world war two and i'm ashamed to be in the same class with some of the the most israel. really incapable the mind you. gentlemen gentlemen gentlemen listen i don't know why change gears here come on you guys please let's not keep fighting old battles here. ok if i can go to ramsey one of the things i think is very interesting and extremely exciting for everybody in

the region will almost everyone in the region is that if egypt can really pull this off others will follow others will see that they can do it without outside meddling they can do it they can have their own democracy without worrying about some other country's security interests that american media is constantly bombarding everyone in the states about that if they can do it on their own and i think that's the exciting thing that's happening there what's tragic is that we're seeing people like suman giving getting so much backing from the united states behind closed doors even overtly which is again i find it repugnant i mean this is really the exciting breakthrough that we could see after fifty years of misery especially thirty years in egypt. you know the prospects peter are indeed very exciting you know we've reached a point in america where it's no longer sounds racist to ask such questions as our obscure bubble of achieving democracy our of schiphol of doing this or that as

if our arabs are just a different breed from ours that is is has no rights and and does not see itself or holds itself accountable to the same universal rights and rules as the rest of the world so the prospects are very exciting as long as there is no attempt at suffocating the popular will of the people were there in egypt or elsewhere in the middle east managed democracies have proven to be a complete theory or president bush's or former president bush's great made a great middle east democracy project was a splendid thing here in fact it's in this back many years now the people the people not the political parties not the ideology is not the factions that people muslims and christians in egypt and in tunisia and elsewhere are now going to the streets and saying we are not with this we're not with that we're not pro we're not against we are the people of these countries and we want to see real and genuine

democracies in our political and i think their voices are risen ating not just in the middle east but also in washington in tel aviv and this is why there is very serious and genuine war is about the prospects and the potential of this populist movement going to give you the last word on this program here if we see this democratization process in the region continue and be real in without outside influence do you think that we that is a path to a real genuine peace in the region where the countries of the arab world in the region can make peace with israel in israel make peace with its neighbors through democracy twenty seconds go right ahead i agree with you. i don't want to be understood them against democracy you all. well i am just raising some doubts as to the historical and current political context israel would be the very first country to reach out its hand to a true democratic arab country because through a cultural political system of democracy i better middle east for all of

us can be established and i hope that is what will happen in egypt and my hand reaches out to the demonstrators in tahrir square hopefully not only stability not only peace but true democracy in the middle east all right thank you gentlemen many thanks to my guest today in seattle london and in jerusalem and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cross talk. if you can. bring you the latest in science and technology from around russia. we've got the future covered.

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