live from moscow this is our chaney our top stories at seven thirty pm time. celebrations taking place in central cairo as the president of egypt hosni mubarak resigned after two weeks of angry protests throughout the country handing over power to the military despite his earlier statement that he would remain until september he has bowed to pressure from both his own people and the west. we do leaks founder julian assange will have to await his extradition fate if all of the adjournment of the latest hearing into whether he'll be sad to sweden where

he's wanted on sex crime charges. over sweden may just be a short stop for a silence leaked cables on the cover an american agenda behind a swedish wiretapping law that might allow washington to press espionage charges the whistleblower. also russia warns japan against pushing forward its tough stance on the real islands a territory tokyo is wanted back since the end of world war two. well mubarak's resignation as gyptian president is the topic of debate in peter lavelle's cross talk show that's coming up in just a bit. under eight for the full story we've gone to. the biggest issues get a human voice ceased to face with the news makers. and you can.

follow in welcome to cross talk i'm beautiful about transition in the middle east with the resignation of the egyptian president is there now a path to real democracy what does the future hold for this country and what about the specter of another islamic revolution. in egypt. to discuss events rapidly unfolding in egypt i'm joined by juan cole in new york he's a professor of history at the university of michigan in washington we have john garvey on oh he is a writer and analyst and in philadelphia we cross to susan she's an author and novelist all right one am i to go to you after almost three weeks of protests and we saw a lot of fudging on the side on the part of the obama administration and its western allies but finally the the penny has dropped here it's still kind of sketchy here

but it looks like the military is in charge and we have vice president suleiman still on the scene but the people protesting and depending on who you want to listen to hundreds and hundreds of thousands or millions and millions of people finally got their wish what's the next step is this a good step for democracy or is this a good step for the military. the protesters are demanding that the emergency law is a kind of martial law measure put it in one thousand nine hundred one which suspends what civil liberties there are in the egyptian constitution that that be abolished and if it is true that the military is acquiescing in the major demands of the protesters then we would move away from those emergency laws the arbitrary detention of people torture and so forth that's one of the major demands besides the stepping down of mubarak and another demand of the protesters is that egypt go

to free and fair parliamentary elections as well as presidential elections presidential elections are scheduled for september in any case there were parliamentary elections in the fall but they are widely considered to have been corrupt and fraudulent so if if what the military is saying is that they are going to the major demands of the people then we could see over the next few months a move to open elections and that is what's being demanded by the protesters susan in your opinion is this is this army and that's this vice president or the right. tools as it were to guide egypt to democracy because you know the euphoria of seeing a dictator go i think you know. people would say yes bad people like that should step down but it's just the head that's been removed there's huge colossal body is still there and the mubarak machine and his people his cronies are still very much on the scene can they make the transition because we've seen the egyptian people

make the transition can they make the transition. precisely you're right i mean nothing's really changed except. just a changing of who's at the helm and the person at the helm now said a man is far as egyptians are concerned and they have expressed this he's really no different than mubarak and you know the egyptians have been very clear about what they want it's not just the removal of hosni mubarak it's you know one of the major chance into square has been a shabby ascott than islam which means the people want a removal of this regime and by regime they mean you know the whole body the whole ruling body that has been corrupt and and has been stealing from from the egyptian people for the past thirty years so i don't right you know what feeling wizard of giving of the we have witnessed

a dramatic turn of events in the past couple weeks and i think we really have to stop it going i don't think that. i think egyptians have been very clear about what they want and this is not what they have asked for they did not ask for it you know for a month or so they managed to come in and move them into what will more than likely be sort of more and more of the same it you know the current regime strategy has thus far been let's wait and see let's wait them out let's wait for it to die out they have tried to sabotage it by releasing thought exe and hired hired goons to to disrupt the protests and make them turn violent they have hired them to try and loot in order to come in and so-called restore order none of that has worked and then they tried waiting and now they're just trying to another appeasement method to to make these protests die down without really granting what the egyptian people

have been very clear about ok genuine and that is really. yeah we have. the protesters have achieved a tremendous amount the past couple weeks and i think we have to step back and look at what's been achieved this is a dramatic news breaking event we actually have the regime saying we will step work will resign that's a dramatic change of events that no one would have predicted two weeks ago having said that there's a a long ways to go this is the beginning of a very long term process and really we've witnessed the first internet revolution we've seen the first indication that an age of facebook twitter instantaneous communication the internet autocracies are inherently unstable they can't sustain themselves not one that the interior does not transfer not in the literature. so there you go right ahead this is crosstalk you can jump in anytime you want. i'm sorry i wanted to say you know this is not a facebook or twitter revolution i think that's a very very oriental

a sort of american way of looking at this is an egyptian revolution it was a revolution of the people you know most of the vast majority of the people that have been pouring out into the streets of cairo into the streets of alexandria port sides and other places do not have twitter accounts or they do not have facebook accounts this is the people's revolution and i think we need to stop calling it a twitter or facebook revolution certainly those those missions and we've been very useful. yes there is a we don't disagree we completely agree but the reality is the people just want to see the young google executive who was on c.n.n. let me first place the young google executive who was on c.n.n. this past week who installed by the egyptian police for ten days he went on national television and said point blank this is the internet revolution let me let me jump in here we want to go one in. in new york here. one of the things that

the mubarak regime played like so many other dictators in the region is that i'm the only barrier from islamic terrorism what do you see in your crystal ball it's early hours now but. there are going to be free and fair elections where everyone participates and i'm thinking about the muslim brotherhood will they be invited to the table to participate they've participated in different forms were not on their own name because being banned i mean this is something part of the calculation and i'm so i'm i'm a real cynic i'm sure so the man was talking to washington and they were to figure out how they're going to deal this deal with this ok because that's always been the bogeyman of why we have to support these vicious dictators go ahead. yeah well this is this is a street revolution and it is very largely comprised of workers it is a workers revolution it is factory workers white collar workers rural workers there demanding better wages minimum wage better working conditions

if you look at the slogans that people are putting up in tahrir square or in alexandria if you look at the chants if you look at the people themselves this is this is not being driven by muslim fundamentalism of the young people who have been killed whose pictures you can see you know they're clean shaven they're they're often wearing denim this is not this is not anything to do with muslim fundamentalism the muslim brotherhood didn't call for these demonstrations it only came on board to support them at the last minute it hasn't been a major factor and it doesn't seem to me very likely that they can come out on top in this turmoil if the trajectory is that a military council will now open up the system and prepare for elections

then the egyptian constitution would actually have to be changed for the muslim brotherhood to run as a party as you say parties based solely on religion that have no secular purpose cannot cannot run under their own banner they can stand under other party rubrics so the likelihood of the brotherhood being able to run under its own banner is is low in the at least in this these first elections if they're held and the likelihood that it can take over by any other means is also low because the military the officer corps even the junior officers are typically unsympathetic to the brotherhood so i don't you know i the statisticians tell me if i give things percentages i can't be wrong and the likelihood of the muslim brotherhood taking over is one percent when you think about that susan a meaning that like anything i had jumpin had. so i think we need to stop looking at the muslim brotherhood as if they are you know like you said the boogie man. the

only reason why i say i don't hear is you know where you only reason why i said i understand the reason why i said it is because i'm i'm trying to react to what the mainstream is saying and i'm absolutely agreement with juan and i mean what you say i agree with you well but i mean this is the spectrum and i think that that's that's unfortunately that is the spectrum of how people look at these events on plane which i think is very unfair go ahead. and i understand and it is unfair and that's what i wanted to that's what i wanted to point out the muslim brotherhood is is a group that's made up of largely professionals doctors engineers you know despite the the perception in the west they are not this is not a group of clergy or or radical in moms who are calling you know for. for you know radical sharia law or anything like that but they are an integral part of of egyptian society and they should have a voice and parliamentary elections why not why should why should any party be

excluded no one has really tried to even listen to the to the muslim brotherhood or talk to them to see even see what they're all about and and this is precisely i think what what these protesters are trying to get rid of they want an inclusive government they want to democratically elected government that reflects the voice the full range and diversity of egyptian voices and you know i think rather than speculating on whether or not the muslim brotherhood is going to get in whether they'll take over etc etc i think it's important to listen to them and see what it is what they stand for and what they want and by everything that i can discern from from their writings and and their speeches they are very much interested in a democratic government in the secular government they say you know when i was in apples i was very innocent here after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the bench playing with me stay with . you.

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her. street still keeps it secrets but now it's time to feel. something inside me to do some stuff like. to. keep. the measure of stuff you know remind you we're talking about events in each.

case. ok john i'd like to go to you in washington where there's another dimension that people mention a lot when we look at the of the fast unfolding events in egypt is egypt's geo political position in the in the arab world and its relationship with with israel which is was very controversial for a very long time among other arabs and in the region egypt's relationship with israel we don't know yet but it looks like the military council will probably not make any major changes in foreign policy until we get elections but this this issue about the relationship with israel is going to get out on the on the radar because that was one of the things that mubarak's made it for a bogey to talk about what do you think's going to happen there. well look the israelis have legitimate cause for concern anytime there's instability with an ally or with a neighboring country i should say they've had reasonably good relations with and

a cold peace there is cause to be concerned when there's a change in governments or change in regime so so i don't discount the israelis concern having said that though the israelis long term strategic interests are best served by democratizing egypt mubarak is eighty two years old he has cancer he's not going to live forever his regime is due to end in any case very soon so the question is how do we make a transition and how do we do it in a way that's peaceful and results in a more representative and democratic government i want to step back and just analyze briefly how we got here we got here in large part because we live in a world of the internet google twitter facebook instantaneous communication repressive autocratic regimes can't sustain their oppression autocracy when you have the whole world watching them with a close magnifying glass so to speak the organizers of the egyptian revolution were well educated middle class professionals who understood this they took advantage of the social networking technologies they were media savvy they are media savvy the

key moving forward is to keep the spotlight on egypt the more we talk about egypt the more the international community looks egypt the more we discuss it the better off egypt will be ok or you know just like you and i take a page out of your ideas or when your talking points and go to war want about it because i mean i would agree with a lot of things you have to say and there's a microscopic watch on israel and the plight of the palestinians we have the palestine papers the the the the position the suffering of the palestinian people is very. not welcomed obviously in egypt and this is one of the things that's going to come up first is what about gaza and it's. the mubarak's foreign policy dealing with the peace process so-called peace process is not popular in egypt at least among rank and file i'm not talking about the military or the security police. that's right well i i all the major players in this revolution have affirmed that they would keep the peace treaty with israel

that's being talked about as being abolished the muslim brotherhood has even said that it's in egypt's interest and i think a lot of egyptians know about or even lived through wars and they don't want to go back to that but i think that any more put more democratic government in egypt in any government that actually represents some degree of public opinion will be unwilling to help the israelis half starve the civilian population of gaza the israelis have a blockade on the one point five million palestinians living in gaza which is illegal in international law you're not allowed to punish civilian populations no nothing that's made in gaza can be exported according to the israelis and they don't let in very much in the way of materiel the airport has been bombed and closed in gaza the port can't operate even fishermen are bothered off the coast by

the israelis so this blockade of a million and a half people which is anyway illegal and it is a humanitarian disaster it is made possible in part by the support of the united states by the support of the european union tacitly for israeli policy and by egypt as you mentioned the projects here are one of the borders of gaza again i'd like to go to susan real quick here susan let's take virtue from the sense city here and i mention the palestine papers i mean if we have a new egyptian government that does one seriously a peace process because mubarak was a basically was they did what the the israelis wanted suleyman said he would cleanse all of the palestinians from from sinai and we i mean. saying is if we get a truly democratic egypt it could actually be a more honest peace broker in the region is a very important country

a democratic egypt fighting for the democratic rights and in civil rights and in human dignity of the palestinians actually might be a plus not a negative. absolutely. well it's certainly a plus for the palestinian people because i think that a democratically elected egyptian government would be more aligned with palestinian the palestinian struggle for for human rights and for for basic dignity and justice i think that you know mubarak has for the most part he's been a client of the us and israel and has has done their bidding particularly and with. he's made egypt complicit in war crimes which have been perpetrated against the people of gaza including what john just went through and thank you for bringing that up because it is it is really. a terrible terrible humanitarian

situation that is that has been. that has been intentionally produced by israel so and i think that having a democratically elected government in egypt would be less willing to tolerate that and more willing to speak up i don't think the egyptian people have any interest in going to war israel netanyahu has been going around sort of painting this picture that suddenly you know if the strongman isn't isn't there to hold these people back that all these violent crazy arabs are going to come and suddenly attack egypt and this is certainly the picture that israel has been painting about arabs for for the past six decades producing this image of of us as being simply irrational violent inherently crazy people i suppose and that's what he has been going around to embassies around and to television saying but if i if i may just finish please

and i know as you know. going here. this is. making a star and rightly this isn't my place big susan. going to get over it in. five minutes john right the libel that's been directed against israel by the past two in the past five minutes really is reprehensible and it's a diversion the revolution in egypt is not about the so-called peace process it's not about israel it's not about the palestinians i don't think you gentlemen on this program or not one person on this program has said that it's not about them now i'm not wearing any of the reds we're having a laugh line is really meaningless to me an issue that's not an issue here of course is not i want israel it's not a very it's about the egyptian people for the. people the egyptian people don't want the blockade on gaza job this is a popular revolution this articular hurricane as it was called as bad as terrorists

or if you mention losing to the rally. and this is a diversion it's a diversion let's talk about the egyptian revolution that was. an attack the terrorist you can't blockade civilians it's not allowed to have starved children if you have a problem with terrorism is really is are not storming the news there is already everybody i'm just seeing a. game right now it's like well that i didn't jump in right now and i have a question very suse's administer i have a session for you is it going to put me and people die john israel no this is not the jews you know this is easy gentlemen we have to move on we're wasting too much time please susan i'd like to go to you on a good note here look at al qaeda people and therefore i think and therefore let me finish and their friends they must be so red faced right now but it must be so angry that the people could make political change their terrorism doesn't work but

people's power can work not dictators supported by washington not bought. asked by washington but people arab people mostly people pulled off an amazing event. in the whole thesis of al qaida it's been shown to be absolutely saluting go ahead absolutely i completely agree and for all of the united states lofty proclamations that they that we are exporting democracy to the middle east in fact you know what we've exported has been has been devastation of entire societies and here we have a country with with five thousand years of recorded history of syrians and as far as i am are assuming the first people please stop interrupting please stop interrupting and and this is and this is this has come from from the people the people are taking the reins of their own destiny it is. literally. destroyed if you mean let me let me finish but but in this revolution has has very

important implications for the palestinians and for the middle east on the whole because gyptian egypt is is the most important power in the middle east and for arab nations and it's it has been a huge part of what has been happening to palestinians certainly the silence and acquiescence. of the mubarak regime has has contributed to to really palestine being wiped off the map and palestinians being ethnically cleansed and i think that it is it's certainly relevant to discuss that in the context of. your time here and i want to we're almost out of time and i want to be fair john you get the last word go ahead. thank you i appreciate the people in the streets in egypt are not protesting because of the palestinian israeli issue that's not why they're there because of the question is moving forward we have to exercise

influence with the egyptian military they are the key institution right now if we want to see egypt make the transition to democracy i think we all agree on that we have to work very closely and we have to put apply a lot of pressure candidly to the egyptian military watch that institution ok one we've got twenty seconds left you want to finish off the last last word go ahead you know washington hasn't been very good about supporting the democratic process so far we need to get behind the people here and we need to to do whatever we can to help hold free and fair elections sometime in the near future that needs to be washington's rolled out ok an ideal cross talk guess many thanks to my guest today in new york washington and in philadelphia and thanks to our viewers for watching us here arche see you next time remember to cross talk. to.