the. egyptian president hosni mubarak has finally caved into russia and the broader the country is stepping down after weeks of unrest across the country his resignation is being welcomed by western powers led by the blast which has been the regime approach for decades with a massive financial and political support. extradition hearing in the case so we can make founder julian assange has been adjourned for a fortnight in london is wanted by stockholm on sex offense charges to try the trial but which he says are politically motivated. boyle was swayed maybe just a short stall sonship leaks cables uncover an american the germs are behind the

swedish one atop a new world that is mine alone washington to the press espionage charges on the whistleblower. staying without top story and hosni mubarak's resignation as a gyptian president is the topic of debate and peace about talk up next here on alt . hungry for the full story we've gone to. the biggest issues get a human voice ceased to face with the news maker. interview . below and welcome to cross talk i'm putumayo transition in the middle east with the resignation of the egyptian president is there now a path to real democracy what does the future hold for this country and what about the specter of another islamic revolution. in egypt.

to discuss events rapidly unfolding in egypt i'm joined by juan cole in new york he's a professor of history at the university of michigan in washington we have john hardy on oh he is a writer and analyst and in philadelphia we cross the susan she's an author and novelist all right one i'd like to go to you after almost three weeks of protests. we saw a lot of fudging on the side on the part of the obama administration and its western allies but finally the the penny has dropped here it's still kind of sketchy here but it looks like the military is in charge and we have vice president suleiman still on the scene but the people protesting and depending on who you want to listen to hundreds and hundreds of thousands or millions and millions of people finally got their wish what's the next step is this a good step for democracy or is this

a good step for the military. the protesters are demanding that the emergency law is a kind of martial law measure put it in one thousand nine hundred one which suspends what civil liberties there are in the egyptian constitution that that be abolished and if it is true that the military is acquiescing in the major demands of the protesters then we would move away from those emergency laws the arbitrary detention of people torture and so forth that's one of the major demands besides the stepping down of mubarak and another demand of the protesters is that egypt go to free and fair parliamentary elections as well as presidential elections presidential elections are scheduled for september in any case there were parliamentary elections in the fall but they are widely considered to have been corrupt and fraudulent so if if what the military is saying is that they're going

to the major demands of the people then we could see over the next few months a move to open elections and that is what's being demanded by the protesters susan in your opinion is this is this army and its vice president or the right. tools as it were to guide egypt to democracy because you know the euphoria of seeing a dictator go i think you know all people would say yes bad people like that should step down but it's just the head that's been removed there's huge colossal body is still there and the mubarak machine and his people his cronies are still very much on the scene can they make the transition because we've seen the egyptian people make the transition can they make the transition. precisely you're right i mean nothing's really changed except. just a changing of who's at the helm and the person at the helm now i'm going to say a man is far as egyptians are concerned and they have expressed this he's really no

different than mubarak and you know the egyptians have been very clear about what they want it's not just the removal of hosni mubarak it's you know one of the major chance into square has been a shabby ascott than islam which means the people want a removal of this regime and by regime they mean you know the whole body the whole ruling body that has been corrupt and and has been stealing from from the egyptian people for the past thirty years so i don't right you know i feeling this is sort of giving of the we have witnessed a dramatic turn of events in the past couple weeks and i think we really have to step it going i don't think that. i think egyptians have been very clear about what they want and this is not what they have asked for they did not ask for it you know for a month or so they managed to come in and move them into what will more than likely

be sort of more and more of the same it you know the current regime strategy has thus far been let's wait and see let's wait them out let's wait for it to die out they have tried to sabotage it by releasing thought exe and hired hired goons to to disrupt the protests and make them turn violent they have hired them to try and loot in order to come in and so-called restore order none of that has worked and then they tried waiting and now they're just trying to another appeasement method to to make these protests die down without really granting what the egyptian people have been very clear about ok genuine and that is really. yeah we have we've achieved the protesters have achieved a tremendous amount the past couple weeks and i think we have to step back and look at what's been achieved this is a dramatic news breaking event we actually have the regime saying we will step work

will resign that's a dramatic change of events that no one would have predicted two weeks ago having said that there's a a long ways to go this is the beginning of a very long term process and really we've witnessed the first internet revolution we've seen the first indication that in age of facebook twitter instantaneous communication the internet autocracies are inherently unstable they can't sustain themselves not one that the interior is nationalists or not and whatever sure. you go right ahead this is cross talk you can jump in anytime you want. i'm sorry i wanted to say you know this is not a facebook or twitter revolution i think that's a very very oriental a sort of american way of looking at this is an addiction revolution it was a revolution of the people you know most of the vast majority of the people that have been pouring out into the streets of cairo into the streets of alexandria port sites and other places do not have twitter accounts or they do not have facebook

accounts this is the people's revolution and i think we need to stop calling it a twitter or facebook revolution certainly those those missions and we were very useful. yes there is a we don't disagree we completely agree but the reality is the people just want to see the young google executive who was on c.n.n. let me first place the young google executive who was on c.n.n. this past week who had strolled by the egyptian police for ten days he went on national television and said point blank this is the internet reverentially let me let me jump in here we want to go one in. in new york here. one of the things that the mubarak regime played like so many other dictators in the region is that i'm the only barrier from islamic terrorism what do you see in your crystal ball it's early hours now but. are there are going to be free and fair elections where everyone participates and i'm thinking about the muslim brotherhood will they be

invited to the table to participate they've participated in different forms were not in their own name because being banned i mean this is something part of the calculation and i'm a real cynic i'm sure so the man was talking to washington and they were to figure out how they're going to deal this deal with this ok because that's always been the bogeyman of why we have to support these vicious dictators go ahead. yeah well this is this is a street revolution and it is very largely comprised of workers it is a workers revolution it is factory workers white collar workers rural workers there demanding better wages minimum wage better working conditions if you look at the slogans that people are putting up in tahrir square or in alexandria if you look at the chants if you look at the the people themselves this is this is not being driven by muslim fundamentalism of the young people who have

been killed whose pictures you can see you know they're clean shaven they're they're often wearing denim this is not this is not anything to do with muslim fundamentalism the muslim brotherhood didn't call for these demonstrations it only came on board to support them at the last minute it hasn't been a major factor and it doesn't seem to me very likely that they can come out on top in this turmoil if the trajectory is that a military council will now open up the system and prepare for elections then the egyptian constitution would actually have to be changed for the muslim brotherhood to run as a party as you say parties based solely on religion that have no secular purpose cannot cannot run under their own banner they can stand under other party rubrics so the likelihood of the brotherhood being able to run under its own banner is is

low in that at least in this these first elections if they're held and the likelihood that it can take over by any other means is also low because the military the officer corps even the junior officers are typically unsympathetic to the brotherhood so i don't you know i the statisticians tell me if i give things percentages i can't be wrong and the likelihood of the muslim brotherhood taking over is one percent when you think about that susan i mean is that right we need to go ahead jumpin ahead. so i think we need to stop looking at the muslim brotherhood as if they are you know like you said the boogie man. the only reason why i say i don't care is you know where you only reason i said i understand the reason why i said it is because i'm i'm trying to react to what the mainstream is saying and i'm absolutely agreement with juan and i mean what you say i agree with you well but i mean this is the spectrum and i think that unfortunately that is the spectrum and

how people look at these events on a plane which i think it's very unfair go ahead. and i understand and it is unfair and that's what i wanted to that's what i wanted to point out the muslim brotherhood is is a group that's made up of largely professionals doctors engineers you know despite the the perception in the west they are not this is not a group of clergy or or radical in moms who are calling you know for. for you know radical sharia law or anything like that but they are an integral part of of egyptian society and they should have a voice and parliamentary elections why not why should why should any party be excluded no one has really tried to even listen to the to the muslim brotherhood or talk to them to see even see what they're all about and and this is precisely i think what what these protesters are trying to get rid of they want an inclusive government they want to democratically elected government that reflects the voice

the full range and diversity of egyptian voices and you know i think rather than speculating on whether or not the muslim brotherhood is going to get in whether they'll take over etc etc i think it's important to listen to them and see what it is what they stand for and what they want and by everything that i can discern from from their writings and and their speeches they are very much interested in a democratic government in a secular government they say you know when i was in apples i was very recent here after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the bench playing out in the state.

we'll. bring you the latest in science and technology from the realms of russia. we've got the future covered well when one deals with war for us to realize that this tremendous amounts of damage that are done not just human damage but damage the physical environment in which the battlefield takes place tremendous amounts of damage done by aerial bombs by napalm. chemical sort of whether it's a sonic boom say factory marine mammals or it's the burning oil fields around the iraq or destroyed reefs in the pacific for landing purposes the list just goes on and on the geneva conventions of nineteen forty nine states that there shall be taken in war to protect. against widespread long term and severe damage the united states although it is accepted

almost all of the provisions protocol one has taken exception to that. are nothing stop we are going to come back. we'll have a rally we'll sell lots of beer will run in the face will wear uniforms that will damage is down the black for them anything but very little damming to white. and they are the key to our problem. all right.

still. to. come back around the time peter lavelle remind you we're talking about events in egypt. egypt. ok john i'd like to go to you in washington where there's another dimension that people mention a lot when we look at the fast unfolding events in egypt is egypt's geo political position in the in the arab world and its relationship with with israel which is was very controversial for a very long time among other arabs and in the region egypt's relationship with israel we don't know yet but it looks like the military council will probably not make any major changes in foreign policy until we get elections but this this issue

about the relationship with israel is going to get out on the on the radar because that was one of the things that mubarak's made it for bowden to talk about what do you think's going to happen there. well look the israelis have legitimate cause for concern anytime there's instability with an ally or with a neighboring country i should say they've had reasonably good relations with and a cold peace there is cause to be concerned when there's a change in governments or change in regime so so i don't discount the israelis concern having said that though the israelis long term strategic interests are best served by democratizing egypt mubarak is eighty two years old he has cancer he's not going to live forever his regime is due to end in any case very soon so the question is how do we make the transition and how do we do it in a way that's peaceful and results in a more representative and democratic government i want to step back and just analyze briefly how we got here we got here in large part because we live in a world of the internet google twitter facebook instantaneous communication

repressive autocratic regimes can't sustain their oppression autocracy when you have the whole world watching them with a close magnifying glass so to speak the organizers of the egyptian revolution were well educated middle class professionals who understood this they took advantage of the social networking technologies they were media savvy they are media savvy they can't moving forward is to keep the spotlight on egypt the more we talk about egypt the more the international community looks egypt the more we discuss it the better off egypt will be ok you know just like you and i take a page out of your ideas there when your talking points and go to one about it because i mean i would agree with a lot of things you had to say and there's a microscopic watch on israel and the plight of the palestinians we have the palestine papers the the the the position the suffering of the palestinian people is very. not welcomed obviously in egypt and this is one of the things that's going to come up first is what about gaza and it's the israel the mubarak's foreign

policy dealing with the peace process so-called peace process is not popular in egypt at least among rank and file i'm not talking about the military or the security police. that's right well i all the major players in this revolution have affirmed that they would keep the peace treaty with israel that's being talked about as being abolished the muslim brotherhood has even said that it's in egypt's interest and i think a lot of egyptians know about or even lived through wars and they don't want to go back to that but i think that anymore put a more democratic government in egypt and any government that actually represents some degree of public opinion will be unwilling to help the israelis half starve the civilian population of gaza the israelis have a blockade on the one point five million palestinians living in gaza which is illegal in international law you're not allowed to punish civilian populations no

nothing that's made in gaza can be exported according to the israelis and they don't let in very much in the way of materiel the airport has been bombed and closed in gaza the port can't operate even fishermen are bothered off the coast by the israelis so this blockade of a million and a half people which is anyway illegal and it is a humanitarian disaster it is made possible in part by the support of the united states by the support of the european union tacitly for israeli policy and by egypt. there's actually a guard one of the borders of gaza again i'd like to go to susan real quick here susan let's take virtue from the sense city here and i mention the palestine papers i mean if we have a new egyptian government that does one seriously

a peace process because mubarak was a basically was they did what the the israelis wanted. suleyman said he would cleanse all of the palestinians from from sinai i mean mean i. saying is if we get a truly democratic egypt it could actually be a more honest peace broker in the region is a very important country a democratic egypt fighting for the democratic rights and in civil rights and in human dignity of the palestinians actually might be a plus not a negative. absolutely. well it's certainly a plus for the palestinian people because i think that a democratically elected egyptian government would be more aligned with palestinian the palestinian struggle for for human rights and for for basic dignity and justice i think that you know mubarak has for the most part he's been a client of the us and israel and has done their bidding particularly and

with. he's made egypt complicit in war crimes which have been perpetrated against the people of gaza including what john just went through and thank you for bringing that up because it is it is really a terrible terrible humanitarian situation that is that has been. has been intentionally produced by israel so and i think that having a democratically elected government in egypt would be less willing to tolerate that and more willing to speak up i don't think the egyptian people have any interest in going to war israel netanyahu has been going around sort of painting this picture that suddenly you know if the strongman isn't isn't there to hold these people back that all these violent crazy arabs are going to come and suddenly attack egypt and this is certainly the picture that israel has been painting about arabs for for the

past six decades producing this image of of us as being simply irrational violent inherently crazy people i suppose and that's what he has been going around to embassies around and to television saying but if i may just finish please and i know as you know. going here. this is. certain and rightly this isn't my place speak susan speak. five minutes john write the libel that's been directed against israel by the past two in the past five minutes really is reprehensible and it's a diversion the revolution in egypt is not about the so-called peace process it's not about israel it's not about the palestinians i don't think you just went on this program not one person on this program and said that it's not about them now i'm not whining that he avoided somehow going to have my nose really meaningless to

me an issue that's not an issue here of course is not i was real it's not very it's about the egyptian people for the. people the egyptian people don't want the blockade on gaza job this is a popular revolution it's up to the hurricane as it was posed as terrorists or if you mention. the rally and cade and this is a diversion it's a diversion let's talk about the egyptian revolution as it was with in terrorism didn't attack the terrorist you can't blockade civilians it's not allowed to have starved children if you have a problem with terrorism is really is are not stored in these areas and i'm just seeing a. game right now it's like well that i didn't jump in right now so i have a question of your issues is administrative assistant producer is it going to put me and people who die. this is not jews you know this even if you gentlemen we have

to move on we're wasting too much time please susan i'd like to go to you on a good note here. look at al qaeda people in there for a thing and there for a living let me finish and their friends they must be so red faced right now they must be so angry that the people could make political change their terrorism doesn't work but people's power can work not dictators supported by washington not bought off by washington but people arab people muslim people pulled off an amazing event not in in the whole thesis of al-qaeda it's been shown to be absolutely five salute go ahead absolutely i completely agree and for all of the united states lofty proclamations that they that we are exporting democracy to the middle east in fact you know what we've exported has been has been devastation of entire societies and here we have a country with with five zero reason i have one years of recorded history of serious and sylar assume the first people please stop interrupting please stop

interrupting and and this is and this is this has come from from the people the people are taking the reins of their own destiny it is and we should. really be talking to the people her sister my brother from me let me let me finish. but but and this revolution has has very important implications for the palestinians and for the middle east on the whole because gyptian egypt is is the most important power in the middle east and for arab nations and it's it has been huge part of what has been happening to palestinians certainly the silence and acquiescence. of the mubarak regime has has contributed to to really palestine being wiped off the map and palestinians being ethnically cleansed and i think that it is it's certainly relevant to discuss that in the context of. your time here and i want to

we're almost at a time and i want to be fair john you get the last word go ahead. thank you i appreciate the people on the streets of egypt are not protesting because of the palestinian israeli issue that's not why they're there because of the question is moving forward we have to exercise influence from the egyptian military they are the key institution right now if we want to see egypt make the transition to democracy i think we all agree on that we have to work very closely and we have to apply a lot of pressure candidly to the egyptian military watch that institution ok one we've got twenty seconds left you want to finish off the last last word go ahead you know washington hasn't been very good about supporting the democratic process so far we need to get behind the people here and we need to to do whatever we can to help hold free and fair elections sometime in the near future that needs to be washington's rolled out ok ideal cross talk gas many thanks to my guest today in new york washington and in philadelphia and thanks to our viewers for watching us

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