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educate old boy you know the whistle blowing web site wiki leaks should be extradited to sweden to face sex crimes allegations julian assange she claims the charges which hung up to his side. of u.s. diplomatic cables. prime minister putin tells a top level even trees in the midst of political upheaval we should be left to find our own democratic or from foreign intervention that condemns the use of force while western countries to be more consistent when they have a democracy. is more than a million refugees fleeing the. e.u. nations as it is to many criminals and terrorists the best moment of the old

raising the country. and space shuttle discovery last song from cape canaveral in the u. was on its final mission after almost three decades of travel that lead to the russian soyuz spacecraft the only nine lifeline willing to take. those are the headlines up next sticking with one of our main stories his guests if states in the middle east can live up to democratic ideas of self-determination that's a debate stay with us.

and you can. still. blow in welcome to cross talk on peter lavelle a part of the globe or democratic rhetoric is beginning to match deeds the north african revolutions are in full swing is this the end of western client ism a neo colonial rule in the early world and can the west live with others in bracing democracy. and you can. start. to discuss new directions for the middle east i'm joined by harold road in washington he's an expert on islam and the middle east also in washington we have one galtung he is rector of the international transcend peace university and author of fall of the us empire and then what and another member of our crosstalk team on a hunger all right gentlemen you have differences of opinion this is crosstalk so you can jump in anytime you want harold if i go to you first we've all been

watching the events going on north africa for us that we had it in tunisia egypt and now a very bloody ended appears going on in libya here let's look forward what kind of middle east is coming into being in north africa how do you see it in reflecting upon the events of the revolutions as it were. well it is absolutely wonderful that people should have the opportunity to be themselves claim to be free of our autocratic and dictatorial rule which is bend the case that most of the middle east with the exception of iraq for some time now there's only one problem democracy is not the natural state of man it is something which is built on institutions it takes times the problem with elections without democratic institutions is that the other forces which want to humans

democracy which want to use elections to take over and be their own tyrants meaning for example the islamist could use this for what they really want one vote one man one vote one time so where they're all errol do you see welling do you see evidence of this at this point it's early in the game i would agree with you but you see evidence of this in the three countries you were talking about libya egypt in libya go ahead. in egypt this is the problem you have the we who is part of the muslim brotherhood. and when he came back to egypt and spoke before a very large crowd into one ear square last friday he pushed off the stage the young executive from google and a lot of the people who are interested in the students the young people who are interested in democracy freedom and human rights the problem with the muslim

brotherhood is and if i if you don't mind i want to quote exactly what they say here and this is kind of the way and this is the the muslim brotherhood. is our objective the prophet is our leader the koran is our law jihad is our way dying in the way of allah is our highest hope this is not what the young people of egypt fighting for i could point you on and i'm going to go to you honey i'm in washington so i mean in light of what we just heard from harold i guess the bogeyman is still alive and well i mean we have to be terrified of democracy because it won't create a possible oh no it but that's what it sounds like harold ok and that's what we've heard for thirty or thirty years now what i mean i'd like to respond to this ok i'm using my words not yours harold go ahead you're on. ok their way i see it is

that up from three have to human rights this year son the americans have a ten seven that will talk about civil and political rights as you know in one nine hundred sixty six sixteen december that are also economic and social rights so there is an enormous revolt against political repression and their gains the horrendous corruption in the quality of unemployment the writing on the two covenants of human rights but behind that is the on the raveling go to empires the us global empire don't israeli region at that age and they have been doing exactly what they imposed told is to prop up the leats and tell them if you don't want to rob your own country do so we only ask you one thing name that you keep certain agreements with us and those agreement should be kept now to what extent that will come through i don't know but to me it is very obvious that from the washington

point of view ben i least i garnered mubarak is a gun needed and we'll see what happens the other places of course what is crucial now is back again and just a little jump from behind n.b.a. have the eastern province of saudi arabia that would be crucial really see what happens right know i am a little bit less about it about muslim brotherhood will come back to that one i'll give you my decent white more budget about all my soul a man and to what extent what comes out of egypt is actually the second to fall back position in military dictatorship that's what we have right now about how that will develop we'll see internees yet there's not that stark not that strong but still very much of the old regime is in power which so as far as i can understand it's a question of sacrificing the top to the names the famous ones and then trying to see if there is a pall back position. it's very interesting where i head if i go to harold here

today but i got harold here i mean there's a good point there is that the militaries are still very much in control and do you think that the united states is good is to go and find a new part new partners to replace the fallen dictators i mean we we knew about mubarak we knew about ben ali we knew what kind of people they were but they also had the military there so is the u.s. going to partner with the military now and maybe you get the outcomes they want in the north africa. well one can assume that what you see there is someone throwing a card of a deck of cards up in the air we don't know how things are going to fall if there is any sort of inclusion meeting forces which believe in democracy freedom and root human rights we should be supporting and we should be very happy with them but when if these things are taken over by the fundamentalists then we should be very very clear. that i excuse me one second unless i can go ahead one second.

the other speaker here has brought up the the wonderful things that are happening behind a in and the and the eastern provinces of saudi arabia we don't know yet but there is something really important that we here in the united states code should be thinking about and this is the following in beheading the about eighty percent of the population is shiite they have been oppressed by the autocratic rulers they are not tyrants but they are autocratic they these people in bahrain are members of the same tribes as a right across the border in saudi or in the eastern provinces of saudi arabia and that involves kuwait as well and even some in southern iraq here's the important thing here shiites have been oppressed by sunny's for fourteen hundred years the first time they have been free is in iraq to be able to make their own decisions

the problem is as follows that iran the iranian government certainly not the iranian people are deeply involved in provoking problems all over the the muslim world the iranians through what approach a lot of people believe is their age in this guy they call day who was the iranian who was the i.a.e.a. nuclear winter. who basically kept giving iran a free prayer well not everybody agrees with that maybe not everyone agrees that's a minority and the money agrees with another security and minority it is not an excuse me excuse me there is very good reason to believe this here is the problem the iranians at first did not cover the marvelous demonstrations in egypt for the first three days until you started to speak and talk in terms of the muslim brotherhood that is their god that is they are working very carefully with the

muslim brotherhood and well if we want freedom in the middle east it would make sense that there would be that we mean listening to the people of iran who want to overthrow this regime they are shiites if they take over and if there is a free regime in iran that unfortunately our government here has not been supporting the free and the young people who want an end to this regime thirty years. excuse me thirty new government in iran would be shiite and the shiites of the gulf who are looking to a big brother at least so at least passably support them then we would have all throughout the gulf a situation where shiites would have their rights in the countries in which they live and i know we cannot let says that there are two people two other there's another person on the panel ya know i mean what you again i see the outside hand of the united states of the west wanting to determine certain outcomes ok we support

democracy but you can have this person you can have this ideology you can have this party it's cetera et cetera this is the same kind of neocolonial pattern that we've had since the end of the second world war in north africa and it must come to an end because we saw what it created we're seeing in the streets now of libya. like it's happening in russia or was not really in russia right now in this i mean harold you're great at changing the topic we stay with north america and you line can you go please go ahead. yes i see many stages in this you see there would probably be a second revolt in egypt against a man and immediately dictatorship and the second evolved internees say is already coming so we have x. to our next two x. three and so on i don't think we should expect too much. to build too much on the bird young we have to take into account that seventy percent of the population india at our birth three hundred fifty million i believe twenty five so

almost everybody is young what we have is the add up street as opposed to the added deletes that the western world have been catering to and particularly in the u.s. and these threads and have been mobilizing them to kill their own people to imprisoned tortured people and to institutionalize and inequality that this absolutely impossible. to handle both sides here on your own even right here on the economic social to handle those two at the same time within their western democratic formula i think it's an equation that it's very difficult to solve so we'll see what happens and it will probably be quite dramatic but i'd like to pay attention to one point in the nineteen forty five agreement between franklin roosevelt and even salute on the aircraft carriers in the suit is. going to have to

jump in here. because it is part of the program after a short break we'll continue our discussion on new trends in the arab middle east stay with our feet.

this. happening to the economy.

welcome back to. talking about new. yes of dealing with the new middle east. but first let's see what russians think north african countries may achieve after their revolutions the social firmament in the middle east is changing the region many argue it will also change the world order however the transformation period is not yet over the public opinion agency lovato's and also question what can be the

ultimate outcome of the public outrage in egypt thirty two percent said no progress forces will take power in the country thus improving people's living standards seventeen percent believe radical elements might take over thirteen percent see care and destruction of the government as a prospect and another seventeen percent think nothing will significantly change still the us has to liberate its new approach in dealing with this new arab world. ok you know and if i go back to you i mean we've heard a lot of rhetoric coming out of western capitals during these revolutions these uprisings of what the west wants to do. with a kind of a big red face because it really supported for decades these brutal regimes but we have to move forward ok and fair enough would be the best thing right now for western capitals is just to stand back and let these people collect themselves and see what directions they want to go to if they want to vote for religious parties

that is their business it's essentially anything that the west does now because of its tainted past will look like outside interference they will blame i think you're right where there carol i asked johan first and then you can answer ok johan please go ahead. i think i think their western powers are getting increasingly irrelevant but they here to talk about the bird nato has been mentioned according to an extended libya as an on the fly zone and that is of course the possibility that the us failed have to stay. on their its obligation from nineteen forty five to come to the protection of the royal house in saudi arabia if it is that tech by its own people ok. you want to jump in go ahead the idea of american involvement again america is a political nation we are many people's living in this country what we have in

common our democracy freedom and human rights a loyalty to these principles it is the only type of sustainable foreign policy that america can ever have because that's what our people are interested in as long as all of these revolutions are inclusive and that people can express themselves and you don't they're not taken over by new tyrannical forces then america will support them the american people if only other hand these are used by the forces of evil the iranian government not the iranian people the iranian government and fundamentalism then we have a problem and on the other hand what are your aim here is a pretty fundamentalists a jeem isn't it i mean you always want to go to iran but you don't look at where fundamentalism comes from in the region in saudi arabia is one of the epicenter i'm going to absolutely right your abs no no no then we should invade saudi arabia you

always want to invade iraq iran let's invade saudi arabia excuse me you talked about invasion not i you know we should be helping the young people we should be helping the opposition with communications equipment there are many many things that we can do but we can our president unfortunately has not talked about this our president unfortunately has supported. what he has said has been supportive of the iranian regime and not the iranian people hair on the whole world doesn't amount to ran it by the way we're all citizens of modern ran wow i ask you to come on this program to talk about north korea excuse me excuse me you have up the gulf you have out of saudi arabia and i would agree with you that look the fact is. matter is that the eastern province of saudi arabia are overwhelmingly shiite were the oil is is shiite and these provinces were stolen by the wahhabi who's who run that country

in one thousand zero to these people don't want to live in a stand they don't want to live in saudi arabia that's why i am an arguing if there was a free government in iran it would be a natural hour by the forces of freedom for you to the united states the west i know the west is hated by the other speaker here i love the west thank god because at least stand for those for you think the people in the greater middle east love the west for what it's done over the last four decades old. do you think the people in central a user love the russians or the people and try to. change the subject for just all change the subject against so you must believe it is me immediately and some problem from central asia come to russia to work come on harold get clued in here ok and you throw them out of moscow was what you do think they're coming every single day heroin being why you changing the subject why do you have always exactly the same to you i am doing what you think you are not in. the middle east well

america country we have done the same deal for one simple question we can create simple oyston we take all sorts of discriminated against people and they can make something of themselves in the united states where you are right now it is very very difficult for that that have been. talking about where i am right now we're talking about north africa not iran all right we know you don't know the gulf before he goes you start you start with a rant on the first thing you've said in this uprising of my not on harold it's first thing you started out with if i go with you johan ok what about the issue well what about the issue i mean israel what about the problem of israel here because in the new a new middle east we're democratic governments eastern harold i'm sorry johann how do we the israeli question come into play because you mention that in the beginning of the program to can a democratic arab middle east have peace with israel. absolutely you know

i'm can you answer first go ahead you know and you say you and i understand that i have i have the floor going i think it's very difficult think that of st this definitely against an avid expansionist the zionist israel and they have expressed this headline time saying again and again they would to be content and could believe read a for june nineteenth sixty seven israel would somebody be actions that study other graham and their league agreement that the bond that iran has signed up by doing the job has done that so i would say the sides are right and if we want stability the basic point would be for the west the u.s. european union and these threads to stop interfering to stop building their political systems propping up their autocrats and their enormous inequality economically you see these people are fighting against that and they are perfectly

cognizant that behind you how do us any threat so sooner or later the card time will come to all of that i would not overplay their she certainly is you grieve it had all it's an issue sixty one percent of iraq is a shia and inclusive you have added abyssinia iran so they bill of course have an open border that's what they want they want to be to get there just like the kurds want to be together so that i many things that have to be shaped in the middle east and all of it is coming up one after the other go ahead errol go ahead jump in what about can israel live in peaceful coexistence with a democratic arab north africa and beyond ok if that is to come to some loathly and here is why if you notice democratic societies worry about the internal problems that you have look at iraq the only arab country in the middle east which talks where you hear in the wind which of the street. it's the word hope that people feel

a sense of inclusion that they have a chance of making something of themselves and they don't have to calcutta some bureaucrat or or or some autocratic tyrant or something like that is iraq in democratic societies worry about what goes on inside of their countries and that is the greatness of what we have helped happen in iraq and i wouldn't say the iraqis will or israel for the. for the invasion by and large the answer is absolutely true and if the proof of that is look when you even had for eight months no government in iraq were they killing each other this was the norm in the middle east no the answer is to get to a democratic system where people talk it through and eventually reach some sort of compromise that's what we helped engender in iraq and god willing that's what will happen throughout the other middle eastern places the other middle eastern

countries and peoples as well can israel live with such a thing absolutely without a question of a doubt is iraq obsessed with israel right now you never hear about it because they're obsessed with themselves which is what they should be ok you know if i could have if i could ask both of you harder croquet supported by western governments anyway a minute and i to ask her the minute you think they'd steer when we watch so i give you a chance harold please don't shove in our other guests it's unfair it still isn't being fair skews you're not being featured it you're not being fair and when you go to our other guest as i announced and as you know her and literate johanne and the thing country every so many people in the world were very very happy to see the uprising against these tyrants in the middle east should the palestinians now have the right to show the same kind of free expression. against israel. can. can not believe we didn't expansionist this that we'd

ever expanding settlements importing the russians to do it where they could easily accommodate people in northern israel they can live with their way and of egypt has cooperated with the surveillance starving gaza that kind of leverage that all that has to change and they expect this middle east then thing you're call it north africa that's quite right that's very much in the neighborhood my good have much luck i expected to come to like it came to the us to madison wisconsin and suddenly you have a live voltage in madison wisconsin how far that goes i don't know but it is about inequality and one instrument that can settle some inequality namely collective bargaining it's a human right and it is enshrined in the human rights so you see this is a general tendency this is not restricted to north africa and to the middle east the increasing inequality under the economics is.