gree of cooperation between the united states or russia on this issue will have a big impact on iran and what it decides to do what is your assessment has the reset with russia and asked by the obama administration two years ago brought any serious results if not what could be the reasons i was a little disappointed for a year or so i am now encouraged. i think now that we're beginning on a much more positive course both sides have ratified the new start treaty and that is a a major step forward in terms of renewal in a cooperative sense the nuclear cooperation agreement is now in force and i think the warmth between the two and the progress we've made together with respect to iran for example and i think even on afghanistan there is a sense of that we have a common problem there common of the export of terrorism the export of para one so on those things are leading and i feel good about the reset button and now mr

scowcroft thank you very much for this interview they are very welcome.

you know again this is our shit we're travel to headlines. u.k. courtrooms the founder of the whistle blowing web site wiki leaks should be extradited to sweden to face sex crimes allegations julian assange claims the charges amount to a witch hunt after his signed release of thousands of u.s. diplomatic cables. prime minister putin tells a top level easy meeting arab countries in the midst of political upheaval should be left to find uploaded in a plot to bring from foreign intervention he condemns the use of force while urging western countries to be more consistent one day i advocate democracy. basically if he is more than

a million refugees fleeing the chaos in north africa could descend on its shores uncooled fellow e.u. nations for systems many fear criminals and terrorists the belmont it's one of them is already in the country. air and space shuttle discovery blasts old from cape canaveral in the u.s. on its final mission after almost three decades of little travel that leads the russian soyuz spacecraft as the only manned lifeline to the international space station. and those are the headlines up next sticking with one of our main stories about asks his guest if states in the middle east can live up to democratic ideals self-determination that's a debate crosstalk stay with. well see british science. is not out to. free.

markets why not scandal. find out what's really happening to the global economy cars a report on r.t. . and you can. start. to. flow in welcome to cross talk computable a part of the globe or democratic rhetoric is beginning to match deeds the north african revolutions are in full swing is this the end of western client ism a neo colonial rule in the early world and can the west live with others and bracing democracy. can. start. to discuss new directions for the middle east i'm joined by harold road in washington he's an expert on islam and the middle east also in washington we have

you know one gal till he is rector of the international trance and peace university and author of fall of the us empire and then what another member of our crosstalk team on a hunger or a gentleman you have differences of opinion this is crosstalk so you can jump in anytime you want harold if i can go to you first we've all been watching the events going on in north africa first that we had it in tunisia egypt and now very bloody ended it appears going on in libya here let's look forward what kind of middle east is coming into being in north africa how do you see it in reflecting upon the events of the revolutions as it were. well it is absolutely wonderful that people should have the opportunity to be themselves claim to be free of our autocratic and dictatorial rule which is bend the case that most of the middle east with the exception of iraq for some time now there's only

one problem democracy is not the natural state of man it is something which is built on institutions it takes times the problem with elections without democratic institutions is that the other forces which want to humans democracy which want to use elections to take over and be their own tyrants meaning for example the islamicist could use this for what they really want one vote one man one vote one time so where they're all errol do you see welling do you see evidence of this at this point it's early in the game i would agree with you but you see evidence of this in the three countries you are talking about the nature of egypt in libya go ahead. in egypt this is the problem you have the we who is part of the muslim brotherhood. and when he came back to egypt and spoke before

a very large crowd into one ear square last friday he pushed off the stage the young executive from google and a lot of the people who are interested in the students the young people who are interested in democracy freedom and human rights the problem with the muslim brotherhood is and if i if you don't mind i want to quote exactly what they say here and this is part of the we and this is the the muslim brotherhood. is our objective the prophet is our leader the koran is our law jihad is our way dying in the way of our will is our highest hope this is not what the young people of egypt fighting for i could point you on and i'm going to go to you honey i'm in washington so i mean in light of what we just heard from harold i guess the bogeyman is still alive and well i mean we have to be terrified of democracy because it won't create

a possible oh no it but that's what it sounds like herald ok and that's what we've heard for thirty or thirty years now what i mean i'd like to respond to this ok i'm using my words not yours harold go ahead you're on. ok they way i see it is that up front to have two human rights issues and americans have a tendency to talk about civil and political rights. in one nine hundred sixty six sixteen december that old soviet konami can social rights that is an enormous revolt against political repression and they gained the what end this corruption in the call that had on the emplacement the writing on the two covenants of human rights but behind that is the raveling go to. pyres the u.s. global empire and israeli region at that age and they have been doing exactly what they imposed all this to prop up the leads and tell them if you don't want to rob

your own country do so we only ask you one thing name that you keep agreements with us and those agreement should be kept now to what extent that will come through i don't know but to me this is very obvious that from the washington point of view ben at least had gone there to mubarak is a gun there and we'll see what happens the other places of course what this crucial now is back then and just a little jump from behind n.b.a. have in the eastern province of saudi arabia that will be crucial we'll see what happens right no i am a little bit less about it about muslim brotherhood will come back to that one i'll give you my the sense what i'm more budget about all my soul a man and to the extent what comes out of egypt is actually the second a fallback position and military dictatorship that's what we have right now about how that will develop we'll see internees cia there's not that stark not that

strong but still very much of the old regime in power which so as far as i can understand it's a question of sacrificing the top the names the famous ones and then trying to see if there is appalled back because it it's very interesting here i had if i go to herald here greg i hear older i mean there's a good point there is that the militaries are still very much in control and if you think that the united states is good it's going to find a new partner partners to replace the fallen dictators i mean we we knew about mubarak we knew about ben ali we knew what kind of people they were but they are also had the military there so is the u.s. going to partner with the military now to maybe you get the outcomes they want and then in north africa. well one can assume that what you see there is someone throwing a card of a deck of cards up in the air we don't know how things are going to fall if there is any sort of inclusion meeting forces which believe in democracy freedom and root

human rights we should be supporting and we should be very happy with them but when if these things are taken over by the fundamentalists then we should be very very clear. and i excuse me one second unless i can go ahead one second. the other speaker here has brought up the the wonderful things that are happening behind rain and the and the eastern provinces of saudi arabia we don't know yet but there is something really important that we here in the united states code should be thinking about and this is the following in beheading the about eighty percent of the population is shiite they have been oppressed by the order crowd to rulers they are not tyrants but they are autocratic they these people in beheading are members of the same tribes as a right across the border in saudi or in the eastern provinces of saudi arabia and

that involves kuwait as well and even some in southern iraq here's the important thing here shiites have been oppressed by sunny's for fourteen hundred years the first time they have been free is in iraq to be able to make their own decisions the problem is is follows that iran the iranian government certainly not the iranian people are deeply involved in provoking problems all over the the muslim world the iranians the through what approach a lot of people believe is their age and this guy they call old baradei who was the iranian who was the i.a.e.a. nuclear winter. who basically kept giving iran a free prayer well not everybody agrees with that maybe not everyone agrees that's a minority on in the money agrees with and on the security and minority it is not an excuse me excuse me there is very good reason to believe this here is the

problem the iranians at first did not cover the marvelous demonstrations in egypt for the first three days until you started to speak and talk in terms of the muslim brotherhood that is their god that is they are working very carefully with the muslim brotherhood and well if we want freedom in the middle east it would make sense that there would be that we mean listening to the people of iran who want to overthrow this regime they are shiites if they take over and if there is a free regime in iran that unfortunately our government here has not been supporting the free and the young people who want an end to this regime thirty years leave that initially was they excuse me the new government in iran would be shiite and the shiites of the gulf who are looking to a big brother at least so at least passably support them then we would have all throughout the gulf

a situation where shiites would have their rights in the countries in which they live and i know we cannot is that there are two people two other there's another person on the panel ya know i mean what again i see the outside hand of the united states of the west wanting to determine certain outcomes ok we support democracy but you can have this person you can have this ideology you can have this party it's a trick cetera this is the same kind of neocolonial pattern that we've had since the end of the second world war in north africa and it must come to an end because we saw what it created we're seeing in the streets now of libya. well it's happening in russia or like that it was not really in russia right now in this i mean harold you're great at changing the topic we stay with north america and you line can you go please go ahead. yes i see many stages in this see there would probably be a second revolt in egypt against a man and it made it to dictatorship and the second devolved into a nice a is already coming so we have x. to our next two x.

three and so on i don't think we should expect too much. build too much on the word young we have to take into account that seventy percent of the population india at our birth three hundred fifty million i believe twenty five so almost everybody is young what we have is the add up street as opposed to the added deletes that they wished and world have been catering to and particularly the usa nice trade and have been mobilizing them to kill their own people to imprison to torture their own people and to institutionalize an inequality that is absolutely impossible. to handle go sightseeing ride on your own see right here on the economic social to handle those two at the same time within their western democratic formula i think it's an equation that it's very difficult to have sold so we'll see what happens and it will probably be quite dramatic but i'd like to

pay attention to one point in the nineteen forty five agreement between franklin roosevelt. on the aircraft carriers and their suit is. going to have to jump in here we've run out of time for this part of the program after a short break we'll continue our discussion on new trends in the arab middle east stay with our feet. in. welcome to the truth period in a blizzard of winter blues should get to slopes and try out some new text brushes got a little calendar excitement in its southern melting stitched trainers to keep you

in top form and a watchful eye on the goal line carving the trail to sochi twenty four teams one technology update here on our own we've got the future. of. the ship. which brightened. evolves from phones to christians. who threw stones on t.v. dot com. and if. you want to cut. welcome back across talk on peter lavelle tree mind you were talking about new ways of dealing with the new middle east. and the

first. but first let's see what russians think north african countries may achieve after their revolutions. the social permanent in the middle east is changing the region many argue it will also change the world order however the transformation period is not yet over the public opinion agency a lot of us and also russians what can be the ultimate outcome of the public outrage in egypt thirty two percent said no progress forces will take power in the country thus improving people's living standards seventy percent believe radical elements might take over thirteen percent see careless and destruction of the government as a prospect and another seventeen percent think nothing will significantly change still the us has to liberate its new approach in dealing with this new arab world.

ok you know if i go back to you i mean we've heard a lot of rhetoric coming out of western capitals during these revolutions these uprisings of what the west wants to do. with a kind of a big red face because it really supported for decades these brutal regimes but we have to move forward ok and fair enough would be the best thing right now for western capitals is just to stand back and let these people collect themselves and see what directions they want to go to if they want to vote for religious parties that is their business it's essentially anything that the west does now because of its tainted past will look like outside interference they won't blame i think you know where they're carol i asked johan first and then you can answer ok johan please go ahead i think i think they western powers are getting increasingly irrelevant but they here to talk about the burden nato has been mentioned the connection made libya's the normal fly zone and that is

a cause the possibility that the u.s. failed have to stay. on there its obligation from nineteen forty five to come to the protection of the royal house in saudi arabia if it is that taken by its own people ok. if you want to jump in go ahead the idea of american involvement again america is a political nation we are many people's living in this country what we have in common our democracy freedom and human rights a loyalty to these principles it is the only type of sustainable foreign policy that america can ever have because that's what our people are interested in as long as all of these revolutions are inclusive and that people can express themselves and you don't they're not taken over by new tyrannical forces then america will support them the american people if only other hand these are used by

the forces of evil the iranian government not the iranian people the iranian government and fundamentalism then we have a problem and on the other hand when you're a musician pretty fundamentalists are jeem isn't it i mean you always want to go to iran but you don't look at where fundamentalism comes from in the region and saudi arabia is one of the epicenter of the absolutely right your abs no no no there we should invade saudi arabia you always want to invade iraq iran let's invade saudi arabia excuse me you talked about invasion not i you know we should be helping the young people we should be helping the opposition with communications equipment there are many many things that we can do we can our president unfortunately has not talked about this our president unfortunately has supported. what he has said has been supportive of the iranian regime and not the iranian people hair on the

whole world doesn't amount to random white oh hell we're all citizens of modern ran wow i asked you to come on this program to talk about north korea excuse me excuse me you head up the gulf you got off saudi arabia and i would agree with you that look the fact is. matter is that the eastern province of saudi arabia are overwhelmingly shiite where the oil is is shia eat and these provinces were stolen by the one who run that country in nineteen zero two these people don't want to live in one stand they don't want to live in saudi arabia that's why i am an arguing if there was a free government in iran it would be a natural hour by the forces of freedom for to the united states the west i know the westerners hated by the other speaker here i love the west bank god because we stand for those for you think the people in the greater middle east love the west for what it's done over the last four decades harold. do you think the people in

central a user love the russians or the people and try to. change the subject for just all change the subject to against what must really is me and millions of probably people from central asia come to russia to work come on harold get clued in here ok and you throw them out of moscow is what you do they're coming every single day heroin being why you changing the subject why do you have always exactly the same thing you are i am doing what you think you are not if he spoke to the real middle east well america country we have done for one simple question when traits employ we take all sorts of discriminate against people and they can make something of themselves in the united states where you are right now it is very very difficult for that to happen in talking about where i am right now we're talking about north africa not in iran all right we how do you want to go before you cause you to start you start with a rant on the first thing you said in this uprising of my not on harold the first

thing you started out with if i go with you johan ok what about the issue well what about the issue here israel what about the problem of israel here because in the new a new middle east were democratic governments eastern harold i'm sorry johann how do we the israeli question come into play because you mention that in the beginning of the program two can a democratic arab middle east have peace with israel. absolutely you know i'm can you answer first go ahead you know and you say you and i understand that i have i have the floor going i think it's very difficult think that of st this definitely against an avid expansionist zionist israel and they have expressed the seventh time saying again and again they would to be content and could believe read a for june nineteenth sixty seven israel would somebody be actions that study other agreement their legal agreement that is the one that iran has signed up by doing

their job has done that so i would say the side. if we want stability the basic point would be for the west the u.s. european union and these threads to stop interfering to stop building their political systems propping up their autocrats and their enormous inequality economically you see these people are fighting against that and they are perfectly cognizant that behind how the u.s.n. is threatened so sooner or later the car time will come to all of that i would not overplay their she certainly is you grieve it had all it's an issue sixty one percent of iraq is a shia and inclusive you have added abyssinia iran so david of course have an open border that's what they want they want to be to get there just like the kurds want to be together so that i many things that have to be shaped in the middle east and all of it is coming up one after the other go ahead errol go ahead jump in what

about can israel live in peaceful coexistence with a democratic arab north africa and beyond ok if that is to come to power so loathly and here is why if you notice democratic societies worry about the internal problems that you have look at iraq the only arab country in the middle east which talks where you hear in the wind which of the street. it's the word hope that people feel a sense of inclusion that they have a chance of making something of themselves and they don't have to cal tell to some bureaucrat or or or some autocratic tyrant or something like that is iraq democratic societies worry about what goes on inside of their countries and that is the greatness of what we have helped happen in iraq and i wouldn't say that iraq usual or israel for the. for the invasion by and large the answer is

absolutely true and if the proof of that is look when you even had for eight months no government in iraq were they killing each other this was the norm in the middle east no the answer is to get to a democratic system where people talk it through and eventually reach some sort of compromise that's what we helped engender in iraq and god willing that's what will happen throughout the other middle eastern places the other middle eastern countries and peoples as well can israel live with such a thing absolutely without a question of a doubt is iraq obsessed with israel right now you never hear about it because they're obsessed with themselves which is what they should be ok you know if i could have her and if i could ask both of you harder case supported by western governments wait a minute and i to ask her the minute you think they'd scare when we watch so i give you a chance harold please don't shove in our other guests it's unfair it still isn't

being fair skews your not being seizure you're not being fair and when you go to our other guests i announced and her and literate johanne and the thing country every so many people in the world were very very happy to see the uprising against these tyrants in the middle east should the palestinians now have the right to show the same kind of free expression. again. broke and. can not believe we did an expansionist piece of it we'd ever expanding settlements importing the russians to do it where they could easily accommodate people in northern israel they can live with their way and ties cooperated with a lone star being gassed so they kind of leave that all that has to change and they expect this middle east then thing you're call it north africa that's quite right that's very much in the neighborhood my good emotional arc i expected to come to like it came to the us to madison wisconsin and suddenly you have

a revolt in madison wisconsin how far this goes i don't know but it is about inequality and one instrument that can settle some inequality namely collective bargaining it's a human right and it is enshrined in the human rights so you see this is a general tendency this is not restricted to north africa and to the middle east the increasing inequality under the economic system we have we need to exactly that kind of thing and i'm quite willing to admit that much of that will have been beat out the help of us and these three gentlemen running out of time there was a very interesting and heated debate here many thanks to my guests being watched and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember crosstalk.