grand hotel emerald marco polo club small circles photo in the big old. ski creek in escape minutes medicine s.a.'s roy kempinski twenty two look in the book of sky hawkins. now so tell. you without seeing her mind in our top stories colonel gadhafi refuses to give up power in libya and accuses osama bin laden of inspiring the rebels he is struggling to control the capital tripoli and western areas protestors are consolidating gains in eastern parts of the country. wiki leaks founder julian assange just. called the decision to send him to sweden to stand trial on sexual assault charges as quote a rubber stamping process sound she said the ruling didn't catch him by surprise

and he will appeal. to russia launches a mission to upgrade its army over the next ten years planning to spend six hundred and fifty billion dollars on the project. and this time a could live well and his guests will debate whether the west will benefit from the middle east revolts to stay with us. wealthy british scientists. sometimes. markets the scandals find out what's really happening to the global economy for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines to name to cause a report on our team. can.

start. slow and welcome to crossfire concrete all about a part of the globe or democratic rhetoric is beginning to match deeds the north african revolutions are in full swing is this the end of western client ism a needle colonial rule in the early world can the west leave with others and bracing democracy. can. start. to discuss new directions for the middle east i'm joined by harold wrote in washington he's an expert on islam and the middle east also in washington we have here one delta and he is rector of the international transcend peace university and author of fall of the us empire and then what and another member of our crosstalk team eleanor hunger all right gentlemen you have differences of opinion this is

crosstalk so you can jump in anytime you want harold if i go to you first we've all been watching the events going on in north africa first that we have it in tunisia egypt and now a very bloody ended appears are going on in libya here let's look forward what kind of middle east is coming into being in north africa how do you see it in reflecting upon the events of the revolutions as it were. well it is absolutely wonderful but people should have the opportunity to be themselves but to be free of autocratic and dictatorial rule which is bend the case that most of the middle east with the exception of iraq for some time now. there's only one problem democracy is not the natural state of man it is something which is built on institutions it takes times the problem of elections without democratic

institutions is that the other forces which want to use the mark received with want to use elections to take over and be their own tyrants meaning for example the islamicist could use this for what they really want one vote one man one vote one time so. how do you see going do you see evidence of this at this point it's early in the game i would agree with you could you see evidence of this in the three countries you are talking about the nation of egypt in libya go ahead. in egypt this is the problem you have a lot of the we who is part of the muslim brotherhood. and when he came back to egypt and spoke before a very large crowd in the one year square last friday he pushed off the stage the young executive from google and a lot of the people who are interested in the students the young people who are

interested in democracy freedom and human rights the problem with the muslim brotherhood is if you don't mind i want to quote exactly what they say here and this is kind of the way and this is the the muslim brotherhood. is our objective the prophet is our leader the quarter on is our law jihad is our way dying in the way of our will is our highest hope this is not what the young people of egypt fighting for i could point you on and i'm going to go to you honey i'm in washington so i mean in light of what we just heard from harold i guess the bogeyman is still alive and well i mean we have to be terrified of democracy because it won't create a possible soon i know it but that's what it sounds like carol ok and that's what we've heard for thirty third for thirty years now i mean i'd like you to respond to this ok i'm using my words not yours harold go ahead you're on. ok their way

i see it is that. we have two human rights is your son americans have a ten seven to talk about civil and political rights as you know in one nine hundred sixty six sixteen december but also economic and social rights so there is an enormous revolt against political repression and against the horrendous corruption inequality and unemployment the writing on the two covenants of human rights but behind that is the rivaling go to empires the us global empire it is really a regional empire and they have been doing exactly what empires holders to prop up elites and tell them if you don't want to rob your own country do so we only ask you one thing where you keep certain agreements with us and those agreements should be kept now to what extent that will come through i don't know but to me this very

obvious but from the washington point of view then at least they garner mubarak is a gun and we'll see what happens to other places of course what is crucial now is back elaine and just a little gem from bahrain be having the eastern province of saudi arabia that'll be crucial we see what happens right no i am a little bit less about it about muslim brotherhood will come back to that when i give you my reasons why i'm more worried about oh my soul a man and to extent what comes out of egypt is actually the second fallback position and military dictatorship that's not to have it i know how that will develop we'll see internees here it is not that stark not that strong but still very much of the old regime is seen part which. so as far as i can understand that there is no sacrificing the top names famous ones and then trying to see if they

separate back because it is very interesting here i had if i got it here older i got here older i mean there's a good point there is that the militaries are still very much in control and if you think that the united states is going to go and find a new part new partners to replace the fallen dictators i mean that we we knew about mubarak we knew about ben ali we knew what kind of people they were but they also had the military there so is the u.s. going to partner with the military now to. meeting forces which believe in democracy freedom and human rights we should be supporting and we should be very happy with them but when if these things are taken over by the fundamentalists then we should be very very clear. that he was me one

second or less second one second. the other speaker here has brought up the the the wonderful things that are happening behind rain and the eastern provinces of saudi arabia we don't know yet but there is something really important that we here in the united states code should be thinking about and this is the following in beheading the about eighty percent of the population is shiite they have been oppressed by the order crowded rulers they are not tyrants but they are autocratic they these people in behind are members of the same tribes as a right across the border in saudi or in the eastern provinces of saudi arabia and that involves kuwait as well and even some in southern iraq here's the important thing here shiites have been oppressed by sunny's for fourteen hundred years the first time they have been free is in iraq to be able to make their own decisions

the problem is is follows that iran the iranian government certainly not the iranian people are deeply involved in provoking problems all over the the muslim world the iranians live through what part of a lot of people believe is their age and this guy they call old baradei who was the iranian who was the i.a.e.a. nuclear inspector in iran who basically kept giving iran a free prayer paramount everybody agrees with that maybe not everyone agree except that's a minority of a young woman the agrees with another security and minority a lot of excuse me excuse. there is very good reason to believe this here is the problem the iranians at first did not cover the marvelous demonstrations in egypt for the first three days until you started to speak and talk in terms of the muslim brotherhood that is there that is they are working very carefully with the muslim

brotherhood and well if we want freedom in the middle east it would make sense that there would be that we listening to the people of iran who want to overthrow this regime they are shiites if they take over and there is a free regime in iran that unfortunately our government here has not been supporting the free and the young people who want an end to this regime thirty years that initially was the excuse me the new government in iran would be shiite and the shiites of the gulf who are looking to a big brother at least so shall we see at least passably support them then we would have all throughout the gulf a situation where shiites would have their rights in the countries in which they live all right you know we cannot let says that there are two people two other there's another person on the panel are you on i mean what you again i see the outside hand of united states of the west trying to determine certain outcomes ok

we support democracy but you can have this person you can have this ideology and this party it's a trick cetera this is the same kind of neocolonial pattern that we've had since the end of the second world war in north africa and it must come to an end because we saw what it created we're seeing in the streets now of libya like it's happening in russia that it was not it was being russian right now i mean just to herald you're great at changing the topic we stay with north america and you line can you go please go ahead. yes i see many stages in this you see there will probably be a second revolt in egypt against a man and immediately dictatorship and the second of all the internees say it's already coming so we have x. to our next two x. three and so on i don't think we should expect too much. build too much on the word young we have to take into account that seventy percent of the population in the outer boroughs three hundred fifty million i believe twenty

five's are almost everybody is young what we have is the ad street as opposed to the added deletes that they were stoned world have been catering to and particularly the usa needs threat and have been mobilizing them to kill their own people to. torture their own people and to institutionalize an inequality that is absolutely impossible now to handle both say. the right here on the economic social and to at the same time within their western democratic formula i think it's an integration that could spread a difficulty of salt so we'll see what happens and it will probably be quite dramatic but i'd like to pay attention to one point in the nineteen forty five agreement between franklin roosevelt and even. on the aircraft carriers in the su is. going to have to jump in here. because it is part of the program after

a short break we'll continue our discussion on new trends in the arab middle east stay with r.t. . well in terms of the. period in a blizzard the winter blues should begin to slow since try out some new text brushes got a limping calendar excitement in its southern melts just trainers to keep you in top form and a watchful eye on the goal line carving the trail to sochi twenty four c. one technology update here. we've done the future cover.

good some. excellent professional. extravagant possessing an extra ordinary car. the doctor who helped many people in his country. criminal responsible for thousands of deaths. was it an attempt to repent. or just escape a fair trial. the other life of a random monk. on archie's. kitchen . welcome back across dot com peter lavelle tree mind you were talking about new ways of dealing with the new middle east. kitchen. story.

but first let's see what russians think north african countries may achieve after their revolutions. the social permanent in the middle east is changing the region many argue it will also change the world order however the transformation period is not yet over the public opinion agency a live audience and ask questions what can be the ultimate outcome of the public outrage in egypt thirty two percent said new progress forces will take power in the country thus improving people's living standards seventeen percent believe radical elements might take over thirteen percent see cares and destruction of the government as a prospect and another seventeen percent think nothing will significantly change so the us has to liberate its new approach in dealing with this new arab world peter ok you know if i go back to you i mean we've heard

a lot of rhetoric coming out of western capitals during these revolutions these uprisings of what the west wants to do. with a kind of a big red face because it really supported for decades these brutal regimes but we have to move forward ok and fair enough will be the best thing right now for western capitals is just to stand back and let these people collect themselves and see what directions they want to go to if they want to vote for religious parties that is their business it's essentially anything that the west does now because of its tainted past will look like outside interference. they will blame i think you're going to see rain where the herald herald i asked johan first and then you can answer ok johan please go ahead. i think i think their western powers are getting increasingly irrelevant but they here to talk about the good nato has been mentioned according come extended leave guys in on the fly zone and that is of course the possibility that the us failed have to. honor its obligation from nine

hundred forty five to come to the protection of the royal house in saudi arabia if it is attacked by its own people ok. if you want to jump in go ahead the idea of american involvement again america is a political nation we are many people's living in this country what we have in common our democracy freedom and human rights a loyalty to these principles it is the only type of sustainable foreign policy that america can ever have because that's what our people are interested in as long as all of these revolutions are inclusive and that people can express themselves and you don't they're not taken over by new tyrannical forces then america will support them the american people if only other hand these are used by

the forces of evil the iranian government not the iranian people the iranian government and fundamentalism then we have a problem and on the other hand want to rain because it is pretty fundamentalists are jeem isn't it i mean you always want to go to iran but you don't look at where fundamentalism comes from in the region and saudi arabia is one of the epicenter and you know absolutely right here out there we should invade saudi arabia you always want to invade iraq iran let's invade saudi arabia excuse me you talked about invasion not i you know we should be helping the young people we should be helping the opposition with communications equipment there are many many things that we can do but we can our president unfortunately has not talked about this our president unfortunately has supported. what he has said has been supportive of the iranian regime and not the iranian people hair on the whole world doesn't amount to a rabbit way to hell we're all citizens of out of iran wow i asked you to come on

this program to talk about north africa excuse me excuse me you held up the gulf you got out of saudi arabia and i would agree with you that look the fact is. matter is that the eastern province of saudi arabia are overwhelmingly shiite were the oil is is shiite and these provinces were stolen by the wahhabi used to run that country in nineteen zero two these people don't want to live in one stand they don't want to live in saudi arabia and that's why i am an arguing if there was a free government in iran it would be a natural our by the forces of freedom for through the united states the west i know the west is hated by the other speaker here i love the west thank god because we stand for those for you think the people in the greater middle east love the west for what it's done over the last four decades harold. do you think the people in central a user love the russians or the people and frankly. change the subject here just

all shades of the city against. me and millions of probably people from central asia come to russia to work come on harold get clued in here ok and you throw them out of moscow is what you do think they're coming every single day here and being why you changing the subject why do i always exactly the same to you i am doing what you think you are not impeding spoken or your middle east well america country we have done same deal for a while simple question when trade simple question take all sorts of discriminated against people and they can make something of themselves in the united states where you are right now it is very very difficult for that to happen and it's a ground talking about where i am right now we're talking about north africa not iran's right and we know you don't want to go before he does you start you start with a random the first thing you say to him is a person of my not on harold it's first thing you started out with if i go with you

johan ok what about the issue well what about the issue of the israel what about the problem of israel here because in the new and new middle east we're democratic governments eastern here on herald i'm sorry johann how do we the israeli question come into play because you mention that in the beginning of the program too can a democratic arab middle east have peace with israel. absolutely you know i'm can you answer first go ahead you know and you say you and i understand that i have i have the floor going i think it's very difficult thing three this definitely against a very expansionist desire and is this rare and that is they have expressed a lot of time saying again and again they have good to be content and could leave read a for do nine hundred sixty seven israel when somebody lesions that study out agreement their legal agreement that. has signed off. on it so i would say the site

heads rewrite if he wants that billet he did basic point would be for the west the u.s. european union and these threads to stop interfering to stop building their political systems propping up their autocrats and their enormous inequality konami really you see these people are fighting against that and they are perfectly cognizant that behind you how the u.s.n. is threatened so sooner or later the car time will come to all of that i would not overplay the shias sunnis to grieve it had all it's an issue sixty one percent of iraq is shia and inclusive you have added abs in iran so they will of course have an open border that's what they want they want to be to get. the kurds want to be together so that i many things that had to be shaped in the middle east and all of it is coming up one after that yes go ahead ariel go ahead jump in what about kim

can israel live in peaceful coexistence with a democratic arab north africa and beyond ok if that is to come to some loathly and here is why if you notice democratic societies worry about the internal problems that they have look at iraq the only arab country in the middle east which talks you hear in the wind which will destroy. it's the word hope that people feel a sense of inclusion that they have a chance of making something of themselves and they don't have to kowtow to some bureaucrat or or or or some autocratic tyrant or something like that is iraq in democratic societies worry about what goes on inside of their countries and that is the greatness of what we have helped happen in iraq and i would say that iraq usually reasonable for the two actions of a spokesman for the invasion guy and large the answer is absolutely true and if the

proof of that is look when you even head for eight months no government in iraq were they killing each other this was the norm in the middle east no the answer is to get to a democratic system where people talk it through and eventually reach some sort of compromise that's what we help to engender in iraq and god willing that's what will happen throughout the other middle eastern places the other middle eastern countries and peoples as well can israel live with such a thing absolutely without a question of a doubt is iraq obsessed with israel right now you never hear about it because they're obsessed with themselves which is what they should be ok you know if i get out there and if i can dispose of your or croquet supported by western governments wait a minute i think asio hired a minute you think they cheer when we watch so i give you a chance harold please don't shove it in our other guests understand steel isn't being fair serious you're not being featured it you're not being fair and when you

go to our other guest says i must and these young literate johanne and the thing country every so many people in the world were very very happy to see the uprising against these tyrants in the middle east should the palestinians now have the right to show the same kind of free expression. again. yeah they're broke and they can not leave with an expansionist. we'd ever expanding settlements importing russians to do it where they could easily accommodate people in northern israel they can live with their way into each egypt has cooperated with israel on starving god they kind of leave that all that has to change and they expect this middle east thing you're call it north africa that's very much in the neighborhood might get had much luck expected to come through like it came today you to madison wisconsin and suddenly you're. both in madison wisconsin how hard it goes i

don't know but it is about inequality and one instrument that can settle some inequality namely collective bargaining it's a human right and it is enshrined in the human rights so you see this is a general tendency this is not restricted to north africa and to the middle east the increasing inequality under the economic system we have we need to exactly that kind of thing and i'm quite willing to admit that much of that will have been beat out the help of us i mean it's very. interesting here many thanks my guest today in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember crosstalk.

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