market. can find out what's really happening to the global economy for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines to cause a report on r.g.p. . you with all of the laughter monster recap of our top stories now the u.n. says the death toll in libya could now be in the thousands as the government steps up to battle against the protesters and as the west pushes for democratic change in troubled regions fears grow their interference will only fuel the fire and. the u.k. is accused of double standards by agreeing to extradite julian a song a job a red clay sport refusing to do the same for international terrorists the wiki leaks founder of claims flaws in the european arrest warrant system ending it

doesn't require sufficient evidence before extradition. process boosting of the russian armed forces or government announces a multi-billion dollar program to upgrade its military equipment to tackle future threats as part of president deby treatment here that's the long term goal is to modernize the country. my colleague our bill dog will be here in half an hour's time but now it's time to cross talk i people of ellen discuss debate whether the west will benefit from the ongoing revolts in the middle east and north africa to stay with us. hungry for the full story we've got. the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers. can. start. to.

flow in welcome to crossfire computable a part of the globe or democratic rhetoric is beginning to match deeds the north african revolutions are in full swing is this the end of western client ism in new york colonial rule in the early world can the west leave with others in bracing democracy. can start. to discuss new directions for the middle east i'm joined by harold rolled in washington he's an expert on islam and the middle east also in washington we have here when he is rector of the international transcend peace university and author of fall of the us empire and then what and another member of our crosstalk team on a hunger or a gentleman you have difference of opinion this is crosstalk so you can jump in anytime you want harold if i go to you first we've all been watching the events

going on in north africa first that we had it in tunisia egypt and now a very bloody end it appears of going on in libya here let's look forward what kind of middle east is coming into being in north africa how do you see it in reflecting upon the events of the revolutions as it were. well it is absolutely wonderful that people should have the opportunity to be themselves but to be free of autocratic and dictatorial rule which is bend the case that most of the middle east with the exception of iraq for some time now. there's only one problem democracy is not the natural state of man it is something which is built on institutions it takes times the problem with the lections without democratic institutions is that the other forces which want to use

the mark received with want to use elections to take over and be their own tyrants meaning for example the islamicist could use this for what they really want one vote one man one vote one time so you know how errol do you see do you see evidence of this at this point it's early in the game i would agree with you but you see evidence of this in the three countries you were talking about the nature of egypt in libya go ahead. in egypt and this is the problem you have no we who is part of the muslim brotherhood. and when he came back to egypt and spoke before a very large crowd into harir square last friday he pushed off the stage the young executive from google and a lot of the people who are interested in the students the young people who are interested in democracy freedom and human rights the problem with the muslim

brotherhood is and if i if you don't mind i want to quote exactly what they say here and this is part of the we and this is the the muslim brotherhood. is our objective the prophet is our leader the koran is our law jihad is our way dying in the way of our own is our highest hope this is not what the young people of egypt fighting for i could point you on and i know you do you haven't anyone in washington so i mean in light of what we just heard from harold i guess the bogeyman is still alive and well i mean we have to be terrified of democracy because it won't create a possible snow know it but that's what it sounds like carol ok and that's what we've heard for thirty. years now i mean i'd like to respond to this ok i'm using my words not yours harold go ahead you're on. ok the way i see it is that up around three have two human rights this years and the americans have it and

send it to talk about civil and political rights. in one nine hundred sixty six sixteen december but also economic and social rights that is an enormous revolt against political repression and they gainst the horrendous corruption inequality and unemployment the writing on the two covenants of human rights behind that is the under rivaling old. prior's the us global empire and israeli region of that package and they have been doing exactly what they imposed all this to prop up the elites and tell them if you don't want to rob your own country do so we've only ask you one thing name that you keep agreements with us and those agreements should be kept now to what extent that will come through i don't know but to me it's very obvious that plunder washington point of view gun there is

a gun and we'll see what happens the other places of course what this crucial now is back elaine and just a little drum from behind envy having the eastern province of saudi arabia that would be crucial you see what happens right no i am a little bit less about it about muslim brotherhood we'll come back to that one i'll give you my d.s. and what i more what it about a man and to extent what comes out of egypt is actually the second a fallback position in military dictatorship that's what we have right now about how that will develop we'll see internees cia there's not that stark not that strong but still very much of the old regime is in power which so as far as i can understand it's a question of sacrificing the top the names of famous ones and then trying to see if they separate back because it's very interesting here i had if i got here already i got here older i mean you would there's

a good point there is that the militaries are still very much in control and you do think that the united states is going it's going to find a new partner partners to replace the fallen dictators i mean we we knew about mubarak we knew about ben ali we knew what kind of people they were but the i also had the military there is the u.s. going to partner with the military now that maybe you get the outcomes they want in the north africa. well one can assume that what you see there is someone throwing a card of a deck of cards up in the air we don't know how things are going to fall if there is any sort of inclusion meeting forces which believe in democracy freedom and root human rights we should be supporting and we should be very happy with them but when if these things are taken over by the fundamentalists then we should be very very clear. to me one second late second go ahead one second i had.

the other speaker here has brought up the the the wonderful things that are happening behind a in and the in the eastern provinces of saudi arabia we don't know yet but there is something really important that we here in the united states could should be thinking about and this is the following in behind rain the about eighty percent of the population is shiite they have been oppressed by the order crowd to rulers they are not tyrants but they are order craddick they these people in behind on members of the same tribes as a right across the border in saudi are in the eastern provinces of saudi arabia and that involves kuwait as well and even some in southern iraq here's the important thing here shiites have been oppressed by sunny's for fourteen hundred years the first time they have been free is in iraq to be able to make their own decisions

the problem is is follows that iran the iranian government certainly not the iranian people are deeply involved in provoking problems all over the the muslim world the iranians and through what part of a lot of people believe is their age in the sky they call old baradei who was the iranian who was the i.a.e.a. nuclear winter. an iran who basically kept giving iran a free prayer and everybody agrees with that need everyone agree except that's a minority of one of the agrees with and on the security and minority there is a lot of excuse me excuse me there's very good reason to believe this here is the problem the iranians at first did not cover the marvelous them and stray sions in egypt for the first three days until he started to speak and talk in terms of the muslim brotherhood that is their god that is they are working very carefully with the muslim brotherhood and well if we want freedom in the middle east it would make

sense that there would be that we really listening to the people of iran who want to overthrow this regime they are shiites if they take over and there is a free regime in iran that unfortunately our government here has not been supporting the free and the young people who want an end to this regime thirty years. excuse me thirty new government in iran would be shiite and the shiites of the gulf who are looking to a big brother at least so shall we see at least possibly support them then we would have all throughout the gulf a situation where shiites would have their rights in the countries in which they live all right you know we cannot place that there's a two people two other there's another person on the panel are you on i mean what you again i see the outside hand of the united states of the west wanting to determine certain outcomes ok we support democracy but you can have this person you

can have this ideology you can have this party it's a trick cetera this is the same kind of new colonial pattern that we've had since the end of the second world war in north africa and it must come to an end because we saw what it created we're seeing in the streets now of libya. like it's happening in russia or was not really in russia right now in this new herald you're great at changing the topic we stay with north america and you line can you go please go ahead. yes i see many stages said it would probably be a second revolt in egypt against a man and i mean it's a dictatorship and the second devolved internees say he's already coming so we have actually one next two x. three and so on i don't think we should expect too much. too much undergird young we have to take into account that seventy percent of population in the outer boroughs three hundred fifty million i believe twenty five

so almost everybody is young what we have is the add up street i suppose to the i believe it's but they're worse than road have been catering to and particularly the u.s. and its friends and have been mobilizing them to kill their own people to imprison them to torture their own people and to institutionalize an inequality that is absolutely impossible. to handle sexy riding on your. car and the economic social and. at the same time within a western democratic formula i think it's an equation that it's very difficult of salt so we'll see what happens and it will probably be quite dramatic but i'd like to pay attention to one point in the nineteen forty five agreement between franklin roosevelt. on the aircraft carriers in the suit is. going to have to show. this is part of the program after

a short break we'll continue our discussion on new trends in the arab middle east stay with r.t. . well come to the. period in a blizzard of winter blues should get to slopes and try out some new textbooks mushers got to look at the calendar excitement in its southern melts just trainers to keep you in top form and watch you on the goal line carving a trail to sochi twenty four teams one technology update here. we've done the future cover. good summer.

excellent professional. extravagant bunch possessing an extra ordinary car. the doctor who helped many people in his country. criminal responsible for thousands of deaths. was it an attempt to repent. or just escape a fair trial. the other life around among. monarchies. became. welcome back across town computor lavelle remind you we're talking about new ways of dealing with the new middle east. kitchen.

but first let's see what russians think north african countries may achieve after their revolution. the social permanent in the middle east is changing the region many argue it will also change the world order however the transformation period is not yet over the public opinion agency look at us and ask russians what can be the ultimate outcome of the public outrage in egypt thirty two percent said no progress forces will take power in the country including people's living standards seventeen percent believe radical elements might take over thirteen percent and destruction of the government as a prospect and another seventeen percent think nothing will significantly change still has to liberate its new approach in dealing with this new arab world peter ok you know if i go back to you i mean we've heard a lot of rhetoric coming out of western capitals during these revolutions these

uprisings of what the west wants to do. with a kind of a big red faced because it really supported for decades these brutal regimes but we have to move forward ok and fair enough will be the best thing right now through western capitals is just to stand back and let these people collect themselves and see what directions they want to go to if they want to vote for religious parties that is their business it's essentially anything that the west does now because of its tainted past will look like outside interference they want lame ass you know where the herald herald i asked johan first then you can answer ok you're one please go ahead i think i think there western powers are getting increasingly irrelevant but they here to talk about the nato has been mentioned. on the fly zone and that is of course the possibility that the u.s. will have to. honor its obligation from nine hundred forty five to come to the

protection of the royal house in saudi arabia if it is attacked by its own people ok. if you want to jump in go ahead the idea of american involvement again america is a political nation we are many people's living in this country what we have in common our democracy freedom and human rights a loyalty to these principles and is the only type of sustainable foreign policy that america can ever have because that's what our people are interested in as long as all of these revolutions are inclusive and that people can express themselves and you don't and they're not taken over by the new tyrannical forces then america will support them the american people if only other hand these are used by the forces of the really iranian government not the iranian people the

iranian government and fundamentalism then we have a problem and on the other hand when your aim here is a pretty fundamentalist regime isn't it i mean you always want to go to iran but you don't look at where fundamentalism comes from in the region and saudi arabia is one of the epicenter you know absolutely right your abs no no then we should invade saudi arabia you always want to invade iraq iran let's invade saudi arabia excuse me you talked about invasion not i we should be helping the young people we should be helping the opposition with communications equipment there are many many things that we can do we can our president unfortunately has not talked about this our president unfortunately has supported. what he has said has been supportive of the iranian regime and not the iranian people hair on the whole world this interview on the rant why the hell were all citizens of outer ran out i asked you to come on this program to talk about north africa or excuse me excuse me you had up the gulf

you got out of saudi arabia and i would agree with you that look the fact that. matter is that the eastern province of saudi arabia are overwhelmingly shiite were the oil is is shiite and these provinces were stolen by the wahabi to run that country in nineteen zero two these people don't want to live in one stand they don't want to live in saudi arabia and that's why i am an arguing if there was a free government in iran it would be a natural our by the forces of freedom for it to the united states the west i know the western stated by in my the other speaker here i love the west thank god because we stand for those for you think the people in the greater middle east love the west for what it's done over the last four decades harold. do you think the people in central asia love the russians or the people in prayer. change the subject can just change the society against. me in the sense of probably people

from central asia come to russia to work come on harold get clued in here ok and you throw them out of moscow is what you do they're coming here every single day here in being why you changing the subject why didn't you know i was exactly the same to you i am still in russia i think you are not in. the middle east well america country we have done same the whole simple question when trade simple question we take all sorts of discrimination against people and they can make something on themselves than the united states where you are right now it is very very difficult for that that have been in the ground talking about where i am right now we're talking about north africa not iran's right to go you know you don't go before because you start you start with a random the first thing you say to him is a program of my not a lawn harold it's first thing you started out with if i go with you johan ok what about the issue well what about the issue of israel what about the problem of

israel here because a new a new middle east we're democratic governments eastern harold i'm sorry you know him how do we the israeli question come into play because you mention that in the beginning of the program too can a democratic arab middle east have peace with israel. absolutely you know i'm can you answer first go ahead you know and you say you. have i have the floor i think it's very difficult think of st this definitely against an avid expansionist zionist israel and they have expressed seven times again and again they would be content and could leave read a for june nineteenth sixty seven israel would somebody missions study out agreement their legal agreement it's the one that iran has signed off by doing the job has done that so i would say the side edges rewrite if we want step billeted their basic point would be for the west the

u.s. european union and these threads to start interfering to start building their political systems propping up their autocrats and their enormous inequality economy really you see these people are fighting against that and they are perfectly cognizant that behind you how do us any threat so sooner or later the car time will come to them that i would not overplay their shia sunnis you grieve it had all it's so nice you sixty one percent of iraq is to she and inclusive you have added abyssinia iran so they will of course have an open border that's what they want they want to be to get there just like the kurds want to be together so that i many things that have to be shaped in the middle east and all of it is coming up one after the other carol going to jump in what about israel living peaceful coexistence with

a democratic arab north africa and beyond ok if that is to come to absolutely and here is why if you notice democratic societies worry about the internal problems that they have look at iraq the only arab country in the middle east which talks you hear in the wind which of the street. the word hope that people feel a sense of inclusion that they have a chance of making something of themselves and they don't have to calcutta some bureaucrat or or or or some autocratic kyra enter something like that is iraq the democratic society is worried about what goes on inside of their countries and that is the greatness of what we have helped happen in iraq and i wouldn't say that iraq usual or you will for the intervention of a spokesman for the invasion by and large the answer is absolutely true and if the proof of that is look when you even had for eight months no government in iraq were

they killing each other this was the norm in the middle east you know the answer is to get to a democratic system where people talk it through and a bench really reach some sort of compromise that's what we helped engender in iraq and god willing that's what will happen throughout the other middle eastern places the other middle eastern countries and peoples as well can israel live with such a thing absolutely without a question of a doubt is iraq obsessed with israel right now you never hear about it because they're obsessed with themselves which is what they should be ok you know if i could have already if i could ask both of you harder croquet supported by western governments wait a minute i thought ask the minute you think it's clear when we watch so i give you a chance harold please don't shove on our other guests it's an unfair steer is not being fair susan you're not being featured you're not being fair and we should go to our other guests as i announced and p.l.o.

and literate johanne pammy and playing country every day so many people in the world who are very very happy to see the uprising against these tyrants in the middle east should the palestinians now have the right to show the same kind of free expression. yeah they're broke and. can not leave with an expansionist. we'd ever expanding settlements importing russians to do it where they could easily accommodate people in northern israel they can live with the way in which he has cooperated with the starving guards so they kind of leave that all that has to change and they expect this middle east and thing you call it north africa. very much in the neighborhood market have much luck expected to come to like it came to do to madison wisconsin suddenly. vaulted madison wisconsin how far it goes i don't know but it is about inequality

and one instrument that can settle some inequality namely collective bargaining it's a human right and it is enshrined in the human rights so you see this is a general tendency not restricted to north africa and to the middle east the increasing inequality under the economic system we had exactly that kind of thing and i'm quite willing to admit that much of that will happen out of us and it's very. interesting. thanks to my guests being watched and thanks to our viewers for watching us here dark see you next time and remember .