we'll. bring you the latest in science and technology from. the future coverage. is having with us here on our team comes you live from the russian capital top stories this hour the president of russia's republic of carbon in about cardio dismissive reports of casualties in an attack in the city of this is only one police officer was injured and the reports claimed up to twelve people were injured often f.s.b. security services building was shelled in the region up to four groups of militants are thought to have taken part in the attack. the u.n. says the death toll in libya could be in the thousands as the government steps up

the battle against protesters and as the west pushes for democratic change in troubled regions fears grow their interference will add fuel to the fire. be ukase accuse of double standards by agreeing to extradite we can leaks founder julian assange overrate claims that refusing to do the same for international tourists. the next it's cost talk in which people of eleanor's guest debate whether the west will benefit from the middle east revolts that's coming next stay with us here on r.t. . wealthy british scientists out. of the. markets. can find out what's really happening to the global economy for our no

holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune in to cause a report on our team. can start. flowing welcome to crossfire computable a part of the globe or democratic rhetoric is beginning to match deeds the north african revolutions are in full swing is this the end of western client ism in new york colonial rule in the early world and can the west live with others and bracing democracy. can. discuss new directions for the middle east i'm joined by harold wrote in washington he's an expert on islam and the middle east also in washington we have here one he is rector of the international transcend peace university and author of fall of the

us empire and then what and another member of our crosstalk team eleanor hung up all right gentlemen you have difference of opinion this is crosstalk so you can jump in anytime you want harold if i go to you first we've all been watching the events going on north africa first and we had it in tunisia egypt and now a very bloody end it appears are going on in libya here let's look forward what kind of middle east is coming into being in north africa how do you see it and we fucking upon the events of the revolutions as it were. well it is absolutely wonderful that people should have the opportunity to be themselves claim to be free of the autocratic and dictatorial rule which is bend the case that most of the middle east with the exception of iraq for some time now. there's only one problem democracy is not the natural state of man it is something which is

built on institutions that takes times the problem with the lections without democratic institutions is that the other forces which want to use the mark received which want to use elections to take over and be their own tyrants meaning for example the islamist could use this for what they really want one vote one man one vote one time so you know how do you see do you see evidence of this at this point it's early in the came i would agree with you but you see evidence of this in the three countries you were talking about the nature of egypt in libya go ahead. in egypt is this is the problem you have no we who is part of the muslim brotherhood. and when he came back to egypt and spoke for a very large crowd and to have your square last friday he pushed off the stage the

young executive from google and a lot of the people who are interested in the students the young people who are interested in democracy freedom and human rights the problem with the muslim brotherhood is and that if you don't mind i want to quote exactly what they say here and this is part of growing and this is the the muslim brotherhood. is our objective the prophet is our leader the koran is our law jihad is our way dying in the way of our will is our highest hope this is not what the young people of egypt fighting for i could point you on and i'm going to use to you honey i'm in washington so i mean in light of what we just heard from harold i guess the bogeyman is still alive and well i mean we have to be terrified of democracy because it won't create a possible soon i know it but that's what it sounds like harold ok and that's what we've heard for thirty. years now well i mean i'd like to respond to this ok i'm

using my words not yours harold go ahead you're on. ok the way i see it is that our from three have two human rights issues and the americans have it then senator talk about civil and political rights i said no in one nine hundred sixty six sixteen december but also economic and social rights so there is an enormous revolt against political repression and against the horrendous corruption inequality and unemployment the writing on the two covenants of human rights but behind that is the under raveling or two empires the us global empire it is really regional that it and they have been doing exactly what they imposed all this to prop up the leats and tell them if you don't want to rob your own country do so we only ask you one thing and then that you keep certain agreements made us and those

agreements should be kept now if you want to extend that will come through i don't know but to me this may be obvious that flown to washington point of view ben ali's said garner mubarak is a gun there and we'll see what happens the other places of course what is crucial now is back again and just a little drum from bucket envy have in the eastern province of saudi arabia that would be crucial we see what happens right no i am a little bit less about it about muslim brotherhood will come back to that one i'll give you my decency why i more body devote all my soul a man and to what extent god comes out of egypt is actually the second a fallback position in military dictatorship that's what we have and i know. that will develop we'll see internees it's not that stark not that strong but still very much of the old regime is in part which. so as far as i can understand the question

of sacrificing the names of famous ones and then trying to see if there is a problem because it's very interesting here i had if i go to harold here great i got harold here i mean there's a good point there is that the militaries are still very much in control and you do think that the united states is going to just go and find a new part new partners to replace the fallen decatur's i mean we we knew about mubarak we knew about ben ali we knew what kind of people they were but they also had the military there so is the u.s. going to partner with the military now to maybe get the outcomes they want and then in north africa. well one can assume that what you see there is someone throwing a card of deck of cards up in the air we don't know how things are going to for if there is any sort of inclusion meeting forces which believe in democracy freedom and root human rights we should be supporting them and we should be very happy with

them but when if these things are taken over by the fundamentalists then we should be very very clear. to me one second unless i can go ahead one second i had. the other speaker here has brought up the the wonderful things that are happening before a now and the and the eastern provinces of saudi arabia we don't know yet but there is something really important that we here in the united states could should be thinking about and this is the following in beheading the that eighty percent of the population is shiite they have been oppressed by the order craddick rulers they are not tyrants but they are autocratic they these people in the train are members of the same tribes as right across the border in saudi are in the eastern provinces of saudi arabia and that involves kuwait as well and even some in southern iraq

here's the important thing here shiites have been oppressed by sunny's for fourteen hundred years the first time they have been free is in iraq to be able to make their own decisions the problem is is follows that iran the iranian government certainly not the iranian people who are deeply involved in provoking problems all over the the muslim world the iranians the through what part of a lot of people believe is their age and this guy they call old baradei who was the iranian who was the i.a.e.a. nuclear winter. circularly ron who basically kept giving iran a free prayer well not everybody agrees with that maybe not everyone agrees exactly it's a minority of one of the agrees with another security and minority a lot of excuse me excuse me there's a very good reason to believe this here is the problem the iranians at first did not cover the marvelous demonstrations in egypt for the first three days until you

started to speak and talk in terms of the muslim brotherhood that is their guy that is they are working very carefully with the muslim brotherhood and well we want freedom in the middle east it would make sense that there would be that we mean listening to the people of iran who want to overthrow this regime they are shiites if they take over and if there is a free regime in iran that unfortunately our government here has not been supporting the free and the young people who want an end to this regime thirty years. say excuse me the new government in iran would be shiite and the shiites of the gulf who are looking to a big brother at least so shall we see at least possibly support them then we would have all throughout the gulf a situation where shiites would have their rights in the countries in which they live all right you know we cannot i says that there's really two people two other

there's another person on the panel ya know i mean what he again i see the outside hand of the united states of the west wanting to determine certain outcomes ok we support democracy but you can have this person you can have this ideology can have this party it's a trick century this is the same kind of neo colonial pattern that we've had since the end of the second world war in north africa and it must come to an end because we saw what it created we're seeing in the streets now of libya. like it's happening in russia. to me and russia right now i mean this i mean harold you're great at changing the topic we stay with north america and your mind can you go please go ahead. yes i see many stages in this you see there will probably be a second revolt in egypt against a man and immediately dictatorship and the second evolved internees say it's already coming so we have actually our next two x. three and so on i don't think we should expect too much. to build too

much on the bird young we have to take into account that seventy percent of the population india at our birth three hundred fifty million i believe twenty five so almost everybody is young what we have is the add up street as opposed to the added deletes but they were have been catering to and particularly the u.s. and its threats and have been mobilizing them to kill their own people to imprison to torture their own people and to institutionalize an inequality that is absolutely impossible. to handle the rhyme you're feeling really weak in iran and the economic social and two at the same time within their western democratic formula i think it's an equation that it's very difficult some sort so we'll see what happens and it will probably be quite dramatic but i like to pay attention to one point in the nineteen forty five agreement between franklin

roosevelt. on the aircraft carriers in the suit is. going to have to jump in here with. this part of the program after a short break we'll continue our discussion on new trends in the arab middle east stay with r.t. . the greatest nutritious and this is probably next on the price of healthy eating. meat to test these three times is the allergenicity immune response lower nutrition and for environmental contamination don't you feel like

a lab rat some consider the experiment is human treatment i believe significant differences between the g.m. both at the chip that. they weren't treated so well themselves one question means one carrier if you ask one question you get the answer and you might or might not be able to publish it but that's the end of your career. hungry for the full six we've got it first hand the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers on. the cake. want to get. welcome back across talk on peter lavelle tree mind you were

talking about new ways of dealing with the nuke middle east. conflict. but first let's see what russians think north african countries may achieve after their revolution. the social permanent in the middle east is changing the region many argue it will also change the world order however the transformation period is not yet over the public opinion agency look at us and ask russians what can be the ultimate outcome of the public outrage in egypt thirty two percent said new progress forces will take power in the country and that's improving people's living standards seventeen percent believe radical elements might take over thirteen percent see care and destruction of the government as a prospect and another seventeen percent think nothing will significantly change so the press has to liberate its new approach in dealing with this new arab world

peter ok you know if i go back to you i mean we've heard a lot of rhetoric coming out of western capitals during these revolutions these uprisings of what the west wants to do. with kind of a big red face because it really supported for decades these brutal regimes but we have to move forward ok and fair enough will be the best thing right now for western capitals is just to stand back and let these people collect themselves and see what directions they want to go to if they want to vote for religious parties but it is their business it's essentially anything that the west does now because of its tainted past will look like outside interference they won't blame. carol i asked johan first and then you can answer ok johan please go ahead i think i think there western powers are getting increasingly irrelevant but they here to talk about the burden nato has been mentioned. on the fly zone

and that is of course the possibility that the u.s. will have to. honor its obligation from nineteen forty five to come to the protection of the royal house in saudi arabia this attack by its own people ok. if you want to jump in go ahead the idea of american involvement again america is a political nation we are many people's living in this country what we have in common our democracy freedom and human rights a loyalty to these principles it is the only type of sustainable foreign policy that america can ever have because that's what our people are interested in as long as all these revolutions are inclusive and that people can express themselves and you don't they're not taken over by new tyrannical forces then america will support them the american people if on the other hand these are used

by the forces of evil the iranian government not the iranian people the iranian government and fundamentalism then we have a problem and on the other hand what are your aim here is a pretty fundamentalists a gene isn't it i mean you always want to go to iran but you don't look at where fundamentalism comes from in the region in saudi arabia is one of the epicenter of the absolutely right your abs no no no there we should invade saudi arabia you always want to invade iraq iran let's invade saudi arabia excuse me you talked about invasion not i you know we should be helping the young people we should be helping the opposition with communications equipment there are many many things that we can do but we can our president unfortunately has not talked about this our president unfortunately has supported. what he has said has been supportive of the iranian regime and not the iranian people hair on the whole world listen to me on

the random white oh hell we're all citizens i'm on a rant we're out i asked you to come on this program to talk about north africa excuse me excuse me you have up the gulf you got out of saudi arabia and i would agree with you that look the fact that. matter is that the eastern province of saudi arabia are overwhelmingly shiite were the oil is is shia eat and these provinces were stolen by the wahabi to run that country in nineteen zero two these people don't want to live in a stand they don't want to live in saudi arabia that's why i am an arguing if there was a free government in iran it would be a natural our by the forces of freedom for you to the united states the west i know the west is hated by in my the other speaker here i love the west thank god because at least and for those for you think the people in the greater middle east love the west for what it's done over the last four decades harold. do you think the people

in central asia love the russians or the people in prayer. change the sound you can just all shades of the city against for years me and millions of probably people from central asia come to russia to work come on harold get clued in here ok and you throw them out of moscow is what you do think they're coming every single day here and being why are you changing the subject why do you have always exactly the same thing you are i am stupid questions i think you are not in people who are your middle east well america country we have done symbol for a wonderful question when trade simple question we take all sorts of discriminated against people and they can make something of themselves in the united states where you are right now it is very very difficult for that to happen in the playground talking about where i am right now we're talking about north africa not in iran all right you know are you going to go before he goes you start you start with

a random the first thing you say to him is a program of my not a lawn herald its first thing you started out with if i go with you johan ok what about the issue what about the issue of the israel what about the problem of israel here because in the new a new middle east where you democratic governments eastern here on herald i'm sorry your home how do we get the israeli question come into play because you mentioned that in the beginning of the program too can a democratic arab middle east have peace with israel. absolutely you know i'm can you answer first go ahead you know and you say you. have i have the floor i think it's very difficult thing to have street this definitely against an everyday expansionists the zionist israel and they have expressed several times again and again they have good to be content and could leave a for drew nine hundred sixty seven israel with somebody evolutions that's thirty

are they dream and their league agreement it's the one that iran has signed up for doing the job has done that so i would say the site if we want step billeted the basic point would be for the west the u.s. european union and the thread to stop interfering and to stop building their political systems propping up their autocrats and their enormous inequality economically you see these people are fighting against that and they are perfectly cognizant that behind that you know how do us any threat so sooner or later the car time will come to order that i would not overplay the shia sunnis you grieve it had all it's a nice you sixty one percent of iraq is to shake and inclusive you have add abyssinia iran so they build of course have an open border that's what they want they want to be to get there just like the kurds want to be into getters so there are many things that have to be shaped in the middle east and all of it is coming up one

have to go ahead ariel go ahead jump in what about israel living peaceful coexistence with a democratic arab north africa and beyond ok if that is to come to some loathly and here is why if you notice them a credit society is worried about the internal problems that you have look at iraq the only arab country in the middle east which talks you hear in the wind which will destroy. the word hope that people feel a sense of inclusion that they have a chance of making something of themselves and they don't have to calcutta some bureaucrat or or or some autocratic tyrant or something like that is iraq in democratic societies worry about what goes on inside of their countries and that is the greatness of what we have helped happen in iraq and i would say the iraqis will israel for the un should have a statement for the invasion by and large the answer is absolutely true and if the

proof of that is look when you even head for eight months no government in iraq were they killing each other this was the norm in the middle east no the answer is to get to a democratic system where people talk it through and eventually reach some sort of compromise that's what we help engender in iraq and god willing that's what will happen throughout the other middle eastern places the other middle eastern countries and peoples as well can israel live with such a thing absolutely without a question of a doubt is iraq obsessed with israel right now you never hear about it because they're obsessed with themselves which is what they should be ok you know if i get here and if i can just close a new heart of croquet supported by western governments wait a minute and i task the minute you think they scare when we watch so i give you a chance harold please don't shove in our other guests it's unfair still isn't

being fair serious you're not being featured you're not being fair and when you go to our other guest says i must and p.c.l. and literate johanne and the thing country every day so many people in the world were very very happy to see the uprising against these tyrants in the middle east should the palestinians now have the right to show the same kind of free expression . yeah they're broke and. can not leave with an expansionist this that we'd ever expanding settlements importing the russians to do it where they could easily accommodate people in northern israel they can live with their way and reach egypt has cooperated with the starving guards so they kind of leave that all that has to change and they expect this middle east thing you're call it north africa that's quite right it's very much in the neighborhood my good and my shock i expected to come through like it came today to madison wisconsin suddenly. halted in

madison wisconsin how far this goes i don't know but it is about inequality and one instrument that can settle some inequality namely collective bargaining it's a human right and it is enshrined in the human rights so you see this is a general tendency is not restricted to north africa and to the middle east the increasing inequality under the economic system we had we need to exactly that kind of thing and i'm quite willing to admit that much of that will have been beat out. of time there was a very interesting. thanks to my guests being marched in and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember.