sensuous problem that little art. was. on that note we're going to wrap it up that's going to do it for him for now here for more on the stories we covered go to our t. dot com slash usa i'm christine for the i will be back in an hour and a half. today violence is once again flared up. these are the images the world seeing from the streets of canada. showing corporations around the day.

can. blow in walking across a gun people about a part of the globe or democratic rhetoric is beginning to match deeds the north african revolutions are in full swing is this the end of western client ism in neil colonial rule in the early world can the west live with others in bracing democracy . can. be discussed new directions for the middle east i'm joined by harold wrote in washington he's an expert on islam and the middle east also in washington we have you know one galtung he is rector of the international transcend peace university

and author of fall of the us empire and then wife and another member of our cross talk team on a hunger all right gentlemen you have a difference of opinion this is crossfire so you can jump in anytime you want harold if i go to you first we've all been watching the events going on north africa first that we had it in tunisia egypt and now a very bloody end it appears are going on in libya here let's look forward what kind of middle east is coming into being in north africa how do you see it in reflecting upon the events of the revolutions as it were. well it is absolutely wonderful that people should have the opportunity to be themselves but to be free of autocratic and dictatorial rule which is bend the case that most of the middle east with the exception of iraq for some time. now. there's only one problem democracy is not the natural state of man it is something

which is built on institutions it takes times the problem with elections without democratic institutions is that the other forces which want to use the mark we see with want to use elections to take over and be their own tyrants meaning for example the islamicist could use this for what they really want one vote one man one vote one time sol. do you see do you see evidence of this at this point it's early in the game i would agree with you but you see evidence of this in the three countries you are talking about the nation of egypt in libya go ahead. in egypt this is the problem you have the we who is part of the muslim brotherhood. and when he came back to egypt and spoke before a very large crowd and to here's where last friday he pushed off the stage the

young executive from google and a lot of the people who are interested in the students the young people who are interested in democracy freedom and human rights the problem with the muslim brotherhood is and if i if you don't mind i want to quote exactly what they say here and this is part of the o.e. and this is the the muslim brotherhood. is our objective the prophet is our leader the koran is our law jihad is our way dying in the way of our will is our highest hope this is not what the young people of egypt fighting for i could point you on and i'm going to use we're going to you honey i'm in washington so i mean in light of what we just heard from harold i guess the boogie man is still alive and well i mean we have to be kara find of democracy because it won't create a possible oh no it but that's what it sounds like carol ok and that's what we've

heard for three hundred thirty years now well i mean i'd like you to respond to this ok i'm using my words not yours harold go ahead you're on. ok their way i see it is that up from three hundred to human rights this year son americans have a ten seven to talk about civil and political rights as you know in one nine hundred sixty six sixteen december but also economic and social rights so there is an enormous revolt against political repression and against the horrendous corruption inequality and unemployment the writing on the two covenants of human rights but behind that is the raveling of two empires the us global empire and israeli region of that pride and they have been doing exactly what they imposed all this to prop up their leads and tell them if you don't want to rob your own country do so we only ask you one thing name that you keep sir agreements with

us and those agreements should be kept now to what extent that will come through i don't know but to me this is very obvious that from the washington point of view ben at least the guarneri mubarak is a gun there and we'll see what happens the other place is of course what is crucial now it's back again and just a little jump from behind envy have the eastern province of saudi arabia that'll be crucial we see what happens right no i am a little bit less about it about muslim brotherhood will come back to that one i'll give you my decency right i more wanted about all my soul a man and to extent of comes out of egypt is actually the second a fallback position in military dictatorship that's what they have and i know how that will develop you see internees is not that stark not that strong but still very much of the old regime is in part which. so as far as i can understand it's

a question of sacrificing the names famous ones and then trying to see if they said hold back because it's very interesting here i had if i go to harold here great i'm going to herald here i mean there's a good point there is that the militaries are still very much in control and you do you think that the united states is good is to go and find a new point new partners to replace the fallen dictators i mean we knew about mubarak we knew about but ben ali we knew what kind of people they were but they also had the military there so is the u.s. going to partner with the military now and maybe if they get the outcomes they want and in north africa. well one can assume that what you see there is someone throwing a card of a deck of cards up in the air we don't know how things are going to for if there is any sort of inclusion meeting forces which believe in democracy freedom and root human rights we should be supporting and we should be very happy with them but when

if these things are taken over by the fundamentalists then we should be very very clear. is that an excuse me one second or less i can't go ahead one second. the other speaker here has brought up the the the wonderful things that are happening before aine and the and the eastern provinces of saudi arabia we don't know yet but there is something really important that we here in the united states could should be thinking about and this is the following in behaving the way that eighty percent of the population is shiite they have been oppressed by the order craddick rulers they are not tyrants but they are autocratic they these people in the hiring are members of the same tribes as a right across the border in saudi are in the eastern provinces of saudi arabia and that involves kuwait as well and even some in southern iraq here's the important

thing here shiites have been oppressed by sunny's for fourteen hundred years the first time they have been free is in iraq to be able to make their own decisions the problem is is follows that iran the iranian government certainly not the iranian people are deeply involved in croaking problems all over the the muslim world the iranians the through what part of a lot of people believe is their age in this guy they call days who was the iranian who was the i.a.e.a. nuclear winter. only ron who basically kept giving iran a free prayer well not everybody agrees with that maybe not everyone agrees except that's a minority of the young and the agrees with that european minority excuse me excuse me there's very good reason to believe this here is the problem the iranians at first did not cover the marvelous demonstrations in egypt for the first three days

until you started to speak and talk in terms of the muslim brotherhood that is their guy that is they are working very carefully with the muslim brotherhood and well if we want freedom in the middle east it would make sense that there would be that we mean listening to the people of iran who want to overthrow this regime they are shiites if they take over and there is a free regime in iran that unfortunately our government here has not been supporting the free and the young people who want an end to this regime thirty years but which was the excuse me thirty there's going to the new government in iran would be shiite and the shiites of the gulf who are looking to a big brother at least so we see at least passably support them then we would have all throughout the gulf a situation where shiites would have their rights in the countries in which they

live all right you know on it and i know we cannot let is that there's really two people two other there's another person on the panel ya know i mean what you again i see the outside hand of the united states of the west wanting to determine certain outcomes ok we support democracy but you can have this person you can have this ideology you can have this party it's cetera et cetera this is the same kind of neocolonial pattern that we've had since the end of the second world war in north africa and it must come to an end because we saw what it created we're seeing in the streets now of libya. like it's happening in russia. believe in russia right now in this little harold you're great at changing the topic we stay with north america and your mind can you go please go ahead. yes i see many stages in this you see there would probably be a second revolt in egypt against a man and the media dictatorship and the second evolved internees say it's already coming so we have x. to our next two x.

three and so on i don't think we should expect too much. too much from the young we have to take into account that seventy percent of the population india at arbor and three hundred fifty million i believe twenty five so almost everybody is young what we have is the idea of street as opposed to the out of elites that have been catering to and particularly the us and its friends and have been mobilizing them to kill their own people to imprison to torture their own people and to institutionalize an inequality that is absolutely impossible. to handle sexy ryan you're feeling really really killer on the economic social and to at the same time begin a western democratic formula i think it's an integration that it's very difficult and so on so we'll see what happens and it will probably be quite dramatic but i'd

like to pay attention to one point in the nineteen forty five agreement between franklin. on the aircraft carriers and pursue is. going to have to show. this is part of the program after a short break we'll continue our discussion on new trends in the arab middle east stay with r.t. . well come to the. period in a blizzard of winter blues should get to slopes and try out some new textbooks but she's got a look at the calendar excitement in its southern melting pots just trainers to

keep you in top form and watchful eyes on the goal line carving the trail to sochi twenty forty one technology update here on the market we've got the future covered . wealthy british style. time. market finally. come to. find out what's really happening to the global economy with much stronger or no holds barred look at the global financial headlines and do all kinds of reports on r.g.p. . ok tom hartman here broadcasting live from washington d.c. coming up today on the big picture.

the folks.

welcome back crosstalk i'm fearful about remind you we're talking about new ways of dealing with the new middle east. but first let's see what russians think north african countries may achieve after their revolutions the social permanent in the middle east is changing the region many argue it will also change the world order however the transformation period is

not yet over the public opinion agency look at us and all what can be the ultimate outcome of the public outrage in egypt thirty two percent said new progress forces will take power in the country thus improving people's living standards seventeen percent believe radical elements might take over thirteen percent and destruction of the government as a prospect and another seventeen percent think nothing will significantly change still the west has to liberate its new approach in dealing with this new arab world . ok you know if i go back to you i mean we've heard a lot of rhetoric coming out of western capitals during these revolutions these uprisings of what the west wants to do. with kind of a big red face because it really supported for decades these brutal regimes but we have to move forward ok and fair enough when be the best thing right now for western capitals is just to stand back and let these people collect themselves and

see what direction they want to go to if they want to vote for religious parties that is their business it's essentially anything that the west does now because of its tainted past will look like outside interference. they want to blame you ask you to see rain where the herald herald i ask you one first and then you can answer ok johan please go ahead i think i think their western powers are getting increasingly irrelevant but they here to talk about the burden nato has been mentioned according to an extended lead guys and on the fly zone and that is of course the possibility that the us really have to stay all of its obligation from nineteen forty five to come to the protection of the royal house in saudi arabia you think this that i provide some people ok. if you want to jump in go ahead the idea of american involvement again america is

a political nation we are many people's living in this country what we have in common our democracy freedom and human rights a loyalty to these principles and is the only type of sustainable foreign policy that america can ever have because that's what our people are interested in as long as all of these revolutions are inclusive and that people can express themselves and you don't and they're not taken over by the new tyrannical forces then america will support the american people if only other hand these are used by the forces of evil the iranian government not the iranian people the iranian government and fundamentalism then we have a problem and on the other hand learning arabia is a pretty fundamentalist regime isn't it i mean you always want to go to iran but you don't look at where fundamentalism comes from in the region in saudi arabia is one of the epicenter you know absolutely right here abs no no no then we should

invade saudi arabia you always want to invade iraq iran let's invade saudi arabia excuse me you talked about invasion not i we should be helping the young people we should be helping the opposition with communications equipment there are many many things that we can do we can our president unfortunately has not talked about this our president unfortunately has supported. what he has said has been supportive of the iranian regime and not the iranian people hair on the whole world this interview he ran it by the way we're all citizens of iran are ran out i asked to come on this program talking around north africa excuse me excuse me you have the gulf you got off saudi arabia and i would agree with you that look the fact is. matter is that the eastern province of saudi arabia are overwhelmingly shiite were the oil is is shiite and these provinces were stolen by the one who run that

country in nineteen zero two these people don't want to live in one stand they don't want to live in saudi arabia that's why i am an arguing if there was a free government in iran it would be a natural our by the forces of freedom for it to the united states the west i know the west is hated by the other speaker here i love the west bank god because only stands for those for you think the people in the greater middle east love the west for what it's done over the last four decades harold. do you think the people in central a user love the russians or the people in trailers. change the subject for just change the subject against so it. is me and millions of probably people from central asia come to russia to work come on harold get clued in here ok and you throw them out of moscow is what you do think they're coming every single day here in being are you changing the subject why did i say exactly the same thing you are

i am stealing what is i think you are not in here you are your middle east well america country we have done several simple questions we take simple question take all sorts of discrimination against people and they can make something of themselves in the united states where you are right now it is very very difficult for that to happen in the it's a ground talking about where i am right now we're talking about north africa and not in iran all right because we have already done the gulf before because you start you start with iran the first thing you said to him is a person of my not a lawn herald its first thing you started out with if i go with you johan ok what about the issue well what about the issue of israel what about the problem of israel here because a new a new middle east we're democratic governments eastern here on herald i'm sorry johann how do we the israeli question come into play as you mentioned in the beginning of the program too can

a democratic arab middle east have peace with israel. absolutely you know i'm can you answer for. you when you say you understand that i have i have the floor i think it's very difficult think it's three this definitely against a very expansionist the zionist israel and they have expressed seven times again and again they would be content and could believe read a fortune one hundred sixty seven israel with somebody visions that's their yard agreement their legal agreement it's the one that iran has signed the idea that god has done that so i would say the side head israel or if he wants the ability the basic point would be for the west the u.s. european union and israel to stop interfering to stop building their political systems propping up their autocrats and the enormous inequality economy really you

see these people are fighting against that then they are perfectly cognizant that behind you how do us any threat so sooner or later the current time to come to them that i would not over later she needs to grieve it had all it's an issue sixty one percent of iraq is shia and inclusive you have added abyssinia iran so they will of course have an open border that's what they want they want to be to get. the kurds want to be together so there are many things that have to be shaped in the middle east and all of it is coming up one after jobs go ahead errol go ahead jump in what about can israel live in peaceful coexistence with a democratic arab north africa and beyond ok if that is to come to absolutely and here is why if you notice democratic societies worry about the internal problems that they have look at iraq the only arab country in the middle east which talks

that we are here in the wind which of the. it's the word hope that people feel a sense of inclusion that they have a chance of making something of themselves and they don't have to kowtow to some bureaucrat or or or some autocratic tyrant or something like that is iraq in democratic societies worry about what goes on inside of their countries and that is the greatness of what we have helped happen in iraq and i wouldn't say the iraqis will or illegal for the us and of a statement for the invasion by and large the answer is absolutely true and if the proof of that is look when you even had for eight months no government in iraq were they killing each other this was the norm in the middle east no the answer is to get to a democratic system where people talk it through and eventually reach some sort of compromise that's what we helped engender in iraq and god willing that's what will

happen throughout the other middle eastern places the other middle eastern countries and peoples as well can israel live with such a thing absolutely without a question of a doubt is iraq obsessed with israel right now you never hear about it because they're with themselves which is what they should be ok you know if i get her and if i can ask both of you harder croquet supported by western governments wait a minute and i to ask you the minute you think it's here when we watch so i give you a chance harold please don't shove in our other guests it's an unfair excuse of not being fair skews your not being feature you're not being fair and we should go to our other guests right now just and these young literate johanne and the thing country every so many people in the world were very very happy to see the uprising against these tyrants in the middle east should the palestinians now have the right to show the same kind of free expression. again. yeah they're broke and

he. can not leave weeden expansionist states that we'd ever expanding settlements importing russians to do it where they could easily accommodate people in northern israel they can live with their way in which he has cooperated with the starving masses they kind of leave all that has to change and i expect this middle east end thing you're call it north africa that's quite right that's very much in the neighborhood my getting a shock i expect it to come like it came today you two madison wisconsin suddenly. leave all in madison wisconsin how hard it goes i don't know what it is about inequality and one instrument that can settle something equality namely collective bargaining it's a human right and it is enshrined in the human rights so you see this is a general tendency not restricted to north africa to the middle east the increasing

inequality under the economic system we have we need to exactly that kind of thing and i am quite willing to admit that my children will have been beat out of us any . time there's a very interesting many thanks to my guests being marched in and thinks or if you were still watching us here darkie see you next time and remember crosstalk.

if. any is indeed. some. say such luck.