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slow and welcome to crossfire computable a part of the globe or democratic rhetoric is beginning to match deeds the north african revolutions are in full swing is this the end of western client ism in new york colonial rule in the early world can the west leave with others and bracing democracy. can. discuss new directions for the middle east i'm joined by harold wrote in washington he's an expert on islam and the middle east also in washington we have here one belt on he is rector of the international transcend peace university and author of fall of the us empire and then light and another member of our crosstalk team ilana hunger all right gentlemen you have a difference of opinion this is crosstalk so you can jump in anytime you want harold if i know to you first we've all been watching the events going on north africa first that we had it in tunisia egypt and now

a very bloody ended appears are going on in libya here let's look forward what kind of middle east is coming into being in north africa how do you see it in reflecting upon the events of the revolutions as it were. well it is absolutely wonderful that people should have the opportunity to be themselves but to be free of autocratic and dictatorial rule which is bend the case of most of the middle east with the exception of iraq for some time. now. there's only one problem democracy is not the natural state of man it is something which is built on institutions it takes times the problem of elections without them a credit institutions is that the other forces which want to use the mark we see with want to use elections to take over and be their own tyra

tyrants meaning for example via slums this could use this for what they really want one vote one man one vote one time so. errol do you see do you see evidence of this at this point it's early in the game i would agree with you but you see evidence of this in the three countries you are talking about the nation of egypt in libya go ahead. in egypt this is the problem you have colorado we who is part of the muslim brotherhood. and when he came back to egypt and spoke before a very large crowd in the hero square last friday he pushed off the stage the young executive from google and a lot of the people who are interested in the students the young people who are interested in democracy freedom and human rights the problem with the muslim brotherhood is if you don't mind i want to quote exactly what they say here

and this is part of the we and this is the the muslim brotherhood. is our objective the prophet is our leader in the koran is our law jihad is our way dying in the way of our is our highest hope this is not look the young people of egypt fighting for a good point you are not you know you are going to you hand your hand in washington so i mean in light of what we just heard from harold i guess the bogeyman is still alive and well i mean we have to be terrified of democracy because it won't create a possible outflow know it but that's what it sounds like carol ok and that's what we've heard for thirty or thirty years now where i mean i'd like you know if your interest ponder this ok i'm using my words not yours harold go ahead you're on. ok way i see it is that up front we have two human rights issues and americans have it

and send it to talk about civil and political rights. in one nine hundred sixty six sixteen december that old soviet konami can social rights that is an enormous revolt against political repression and against the horrendous corruption in the call that unemployment. two covenants of human rights behind that is the raveling go to. players the us global empire this really a regional power and they have been doing exactly what they've proposed all this to prop up elites and tell them if you don't want to rob your own country do so we will only ask you one thing name that you keep so agreements with us and those agreements should be kept now to what extent that will come through i don't know but to me this very obvious that the washington point of view garner is a gun and we'll see what happens to other places of course what is crucial now is

back elaine and just a little gem from bottom end of the eastern province of saudi arabia that will be crucial we see what happens right no i am a little bit less about it about muslim brotherhood we'll come back to that one i'll give you my the sense right now i'm more worried about all my soul a man and to extent what comes out of egypt is actually the second that fallback position and military dictatorship that's what we have right now about how that will develop we'll see internees here it is not that stark not that strong but still very much of the old regime is in part so as far as i can understand it's a question of sacrificing the top the names famous ones and then trying to see if there is a problem because it is very interesting here i had if i go to harold here where you're going to hear older i mean there's a good point there is that the militaries are still very much in control and if you

think if united states is going it's going to find a new partner partners let's replace the following dictators i mean we we knew about mubarak we knew about but now we knew what kind of people they were but we also had the military there is the u.s. going to partner with the military now and maybe you get the outcomes they want and then in north africa. well one can assume what you see there is someone throwing a card of deck of cards up in the air we don't know how things are going before if there is any sort of inclusion meeting forces which believe in democracy freedom and root human rights we should be supporting them and we should be very happy with them but when if these things are taken over by the fundamentalists then we should be very very clear. to me one second or less second one second. the other speaker here has brought up the the wonderful things that are happening

behind and the in the eastern provinces of saudi arabia we don't know yet but there is something really important that we here in the united states code should be thinking about and this is the following in beheading the about eighty percent of the population is shiite they have been oppressed by the order crowded rulers they are not tyrants but they are autocratic they these people in behind on members of the same tribes as a right across the border in saudi or in the eastern provinces of saudi arabia and that involves kuwait as well and even some in southern iraq here's the important thing here shiites have been oppressed by sunny's for fourteen hundred years the first time they have been free is in iraq to be able to make their own decisions the problem is is follows that iran the iranian government certainly not the

iranian people are deeply involved in provoking problems all over the the muslim world the iranians the through what part of a lot of people believe is their age and this guy they call old baradei who was the iranian who was the i.a.e.a. nuclear was. only ron who basically kept giving iran a free prayer pal not everybody agrees with that maybe not everyone agrees exactly that's a minority as i fundamentally agrees with and security and minority a lot of excuse me excuse me there's very good reason to believe this here is the problem the iranians at first did not cover the marvelous there menstruations in egypt for the first three days until he started to speak and talk in terms of the muslim brotherhood that is their guy that is they are working very carefully with the muslim brotherhood and well if we want freedom in the middle east it would make sense that there would be that we mean listening to the people of iran who want to

overthrow this regime they are shiites if they take over and there is a free regime in iran that unfortunately our government here has not been supporting the free the young people who want an end to this regime thirty years later that initially was the excuse me the new government in iran would be shiite and the shiites of the gulf who are looking to a big brother at least so it would show you see at least passably support them then we would have all throughout the gulf a situation where shiites would have their rights in the countries in which they live it all right you know i'm in and right now we cannot this is that they're saying to people to other there's no other person on the panel yonder i mean what you again i see the outside hand of the united states of the west wanting to determine certain outcomes ok we support democracy but you can have this person you can have this ideology you can have this party it's

a trick cetera this is the same kind of neocolonial pattern that we've had since the end of the second world war in north africa and it must come to an end because we saw what it created we're seeing in the streets now of libya. like it's happening in russia it was not in russia right now i mean just me harold you're great at changing the topic we stay with north america and you'll find when you go please go ahead. yes i see many stages and see there would probably be a second revolt in egypt against a man and it needed to be paid to ship the second evolved into a nice a solid economy so we have x. to our next two x. three and so on i don't think we should expect too much. build too much on the young we have to take into account that seventy percent of the population in the ad are burrowed three hundred fifty million i believe twenty five so almost everybody is young what we have is the add up street as opposed to the

added deletes that their western world has been catering to and particularly the usa needs trade and have been mobilizing them to kill their own people to increase and to torture their own people and to institutionalize an inequality that is absolutely impossible now to handle the raw euros. or on the economic social and those two at the same time within their best then democratic formula i think it's an equation that and spread to difficult of salt so we'll see what happens and it will probably be quite dramatic but i'd like to pay attention to one part in the nineteen forty five agreement between franklin roosevelt and it didn't suit on the aircraft carriers in the suit was. going to have to jump in here. because it is part of the program after a short break we'll continue our discussion on new trends in the arab middle east

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welcome back to crossfire computor look i'll remind you we're talking about new ways of dealing with the new middle east. but first let's see what russians think north african countries may achieve after their revolutions the social permanent in the middle east is changing the region many argue it will also change the world order however the transformation period is not yet over the public opinion agency look at us and also what can be the ultimate outcome of the public outrage in egypt thirty two percent said no progress forces will take power in the country improving people's living standards seventeen percent believe radical elements might take over thirteen percent and destruction of the government as a prospect and another seventeen percent think nothing will significantly change

still the west has to liberate its new approach in dealing with this new arab world . ok you know if i go back to you i mean we've heard a lot of rhetoric coming out of western capitals during these revolutions these uprisings of what the west wants to do. it kind of a big red faced because it really supported for decades these brutal regimes but we have to move forward ok and fair enough would be the best thing right now for western capitals is just to stand back and let these people collect themselves and see what directions they want to go to if they want to vote for religious parties that is their business it's essentially anything that the west does now because of its tainted past will look like outside interference. they won't blame you ask you if you remember the herald herald i asked johann first and then you can answer ok johan please go ahead i think i think a western powers are getting increasingly irrelevant but they here to talk about

the burden nato has been mentioned that cory makes me believe guys and on the fly zone and that is of course the possibility that the us failed have to stay on or its obligation from nineteen forty five to come to the protection of the royal house in saudi arabia i think is that right some people ok here. you want to jump in go ahead the idea of american involvement again america is a political nation we are many people's living in this country what we have in common our democracy freedom and human rights a loyalty to these principles and is the only type of sustainable foreign policy that america can ever have because that's what our people are interested in as long as all of these revolutions are inclusive and that people can express

themselves and you don't know they're not taken over by a new tyrannical forces then america will support them the american people if only other hand these are used by the forces of the world the iranian government not the iranian people the iranian government and fundamentalism then we have a problem and on the other hand wanting a review is a pretty fundamentalist regime isn't it i mean you always want to go to iran but you don't look at where fundamentalism comes from in the region and saudi arabia is one of the epicenter i'm going to absolutely right your abs no no no then we should invade saudi arabia you always want to invade iraq iran let's invade saudi arabia excuse me you talked about invasion not i we should be helping the young people we should be helping the opposition with communications equipment there are many many things that we can do we can our president unfortunately has not talked about this our president unfortunately has supported. what he has said has been supportive of

the iranian regime and not the iranian people hair on the whole world this interview on the rant why don't we were all citizens of out of iran wow i asked you to come on this program to talk about north africa excuse me excuse me you have the gulf you have out of saudi arabia and i would agree with you that look the fact that. matter is that the eastern province of saudi arabia are overwhelmingly shiite were the oil is is shiite and these provinces were stolen by the white house because who run that country in one thousand zero two these people don't want to live in one house but stand they don't want to live in saudi arabia that's why i am an arguing if there was a free government in iran it would be a natural our the forces of freedom for it to the united states the west i know lester's hated by the other speaker here i love the west bank god because we stand

for those for you think the people in the greater middle east love the west for what it's done over the last four decades harold. do you think the people in central a user love the russians or the people in trailer trash was changed the subject for his soul james this is a city against you and. me and millions of probably people from central asia come to russia to work come on harold get clued in here ok and you throw them out of moscow is what you do they're coming every single day and heroin before you changing the subject why do you know exactly the same thing you are i am stealing what you think you are not inferior or your middle east well america country we have done same deal for a wonderful question we trade simple question we take all sorts of discriminate against people and they can make something of themselves in the united states where you are right now it is very very difficult for that happen and it's a ground talking about where i am right now we're talking about north africa not in

iran and right there we are even in the gulf before leaders you start you start with the random the first thing he says is a program of my knowledge on harold that's first thing you started out with if i go with you johan ok what about the issue well what about the issue of the israel what about the problem of israel here because a new a new middle east were democratic governments a certain harold i'm sorry johann how do we get the israeli question come into play as you mention that in the beginning of the program two can a democratic arab middle east have peace with israel. absolutely you know i'm can you answer for. you when you say you. have i have the floor i think it's very difficult think of st this definitely against a very expansionist desire and it's this rare and they have expressed seven times again and again they would to be content could leave

a fortune one hundred sixty seven israel with somebody missions that's thirty other agreement their legal agreement that's the one that iran has signed and i do the job has done it so i would say the science educator or if he wants the ability the basic point would be for the west the u.s. european union and israel to stop interfering to stop building their political systems propping up their autocrats and their enormous inequality economically you see these people are fighting against that they are perfectly cognizant that behind us any strength so sooner or later the car time will come to all them that i would not overplay their shia sunnis to grieve it had all it's an issue sixty one percent of iraq is shia and inclusive you have added abyssinia iran so they will of course have an open border that's what they want they want to be to get there just like

the kurds want to be together so there are many things that have to be shaped in the middle east and all of it is coming up one after the others go here i'm going to jump in what about israel live in peaceful coexistence with democratic arab north africa and beyond ok if that is to come to some loathly and here is why if you notice democratic societies worry about the internal problems that they have look at iraq the only arab country in the middle east which talks you hear in the language of the. it's the word hope that people feel a sense of inclusion that they have a chance of making something of themselves and they don't have to cal tell to some bureaucrat or or some autocratic tyrant or something like that is iraq in democratic societies worry about what goes on inside of their countries and that is the greatness of what we have helped happen in iraq and i wouldn't say that iraq

usual or you will for the eventually end of a statement for the invasion by and large the answer is absolutely true and if the proof of that is look when you even head for eight months out no government in iraq where they killing each other this was the norm in the middle east no the answer is to get to a democratic system where people talk it through and eventually reach some sort of compromise that's what we helped engender in iraq and god willing that's what will happen throughout the other middle eastern places the other middle eastern countries and peoples as well can israel live with such a thing absolutely without a question of a doubt is iraq obsessed with israel right now you never hear about it because they're obsessed with themselves which is what they should be ok you know if i could have her and if i could ask both of you harder croquet supported by western

governments anyway a minute i have to ask you the minute you think it's clear when we watch so i give you a chance harold please don't shove on our own there guess it's unfair still isn't being fair skews your not being cheated you're not being fair and you go to our other guess is right most anti a liar and literate and the anything country every so many people in the world who are very very happy to see the uprising against these tyrants in the middle east should the palestinians now have the right to show the same kind of free expression . again. yeah they're broke and he. can not leave we don't expansionist. we'd ever expanding settlements importing russians to do it where they could easily accommodate people in northern israel they can live with the way in which he has cooperated with the starving guards so they kind of leave that all that has to change and they expect this middle east thing you're call it north africa that's quite right that's very much in the

neighborhood my good emotional arc i expected to come through like it came to do to madison wisconsin suddenly. leave all in madison wisconsin how hard it goes i don't know what it is about inequality and one instrument that can settle some inequality namely collective bargaining it's a human right and it is enshrined in the human rights so you see this is a general tendency not to restrict it to north africa and to the middle east the increasing inequality under the economic system we have we need to exactly that kind of thing and i'm quite willing to admit that much of that will have been beat out of us and it's really. interesting. thanks my guests. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember crosstalk.

ok thom hartmann here broadcasting live from washington d.c. coming up today on the big picture. he.